Topic : An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

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Created on : Friday, March 03, 2006, 09:33:47 am
Author : trtlelove

For the record, this topic has been posted to accomodate many threads that tend to end up discussing religion and our beliefs about God, etc.   We would like to maintain an open and peaceful tone for all to participate and simply share their points of view and experience, exchanging ideas, asking and answering each other's questions, etc.

 

From my own personal experience, I have been writing mostly on the original "Twisted Love" thread so if anyone wants to get more background they can look me (or anyone else) up there by using  "Search Boards" above (next to "Boards Archive" and "Profile", etc.) and type in any of our user names in the "blank box".  This will bring up everything we have posted and the responses we have given to each other's posts.

 

Peace and Love All-Ways,

 

Turtle Love (user name "trtlelove")




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March 7, 2006, 8:15 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: trtlelove

Although I've been quiet for a little while, this is one topic I think has more critical implications for our society than maybe any other, and probably not for the reasons many of you may be thinking. 

  

First of all, I would encourage any person in this country who has been influenced by the our Judeo/Christian heritage to take the time to read Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Laurence Gardner.  Although he covers some of the information "revealed" in Dan Brown's book, The DaVinci Code, with the primary emphasis being the possibility/probability of Mary Magdalene actually being Jesus' wife, Gardner's book predates Brown's by about 10 years, is "academic" rather than "dramatic" in its approach, and, I feel, accesses more credible resources to build its case. 

  

What I learned from reading the book myself was, first and foremost, how language shapes our culture and our reality.  When one word in one language is translated (or, as often happens, mis-translated, either intentionally or unintentionally) it can completely change the reality that the first word was trying to describe.  For example, the difference between the Latin "virgo" and "virgo intacto".  Guess what: "virgo" means simply "young woman".  "Virgo intacto" means "virgin" in the sense that we understand it today.  So, with respect to Mary the Mother of Jesus, as Gardner explains, "virgo" was (mis) translated as "virgo intacto", i.e. from "young woman" to "virgin". 

  

Now think about it.  How much emphasis is placed on the "virgin birth" of Jesus?  How much of the current "doctrine" of Christianity depends on that interpretation?  

  

There's really no denying that there is A LOT hanging on that one word. 

  

So let's look at the word "revelation" and how that is different from a "prophecy". 

  

From one on-line dictionary "revelation" means:  Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.  Whereas "prophecy" means: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration. 

  

Of "Revelations" Gardener points out that, first of all, the intent of John's writing was just that, to "reveal" information about something that was already going on and using symbolic language that represented very specific "characters" and political powers that the people of the day would recognize.  Keep in mind, the whole time Jesus is around, the Jews are under the rule of the Romans.  And partly because of that, the Jews could not claim other "kings" as their own, or from their own population  (i.e. Jesus was claimed to be "King of the Jews" and the Romans saw that as a threat to their own rule).   Consequently, a considerable part of the "scriptures" were "coded" so that the Jewish people would "get the (hidden) message" but the Romans would see nothing but an "allegorical story" or "parable".    

  

Second, hundreds of years later, the first compilers of the scriptures were being very deliberate in their own manipulation of the material to create a certain "mindset" in the masses.  To suggest that John's "Revelations" were actually  "prophecies" was a way of putting people in a place to seek "protection" and "salvation" before the "end time".  And of course, they turned to the Church for that protection and salvation, often paying quite well for such services.  Nevertheless, John, himself did not call them "prophecies".  John called them  "Revelations". 

  

That being said, I have communicated over and over again through my posts, YOU BECOME WHAT YOU MEDITATE ON.  I think this happens individually and collectively.  We have had this "end time scenario" to "meditate on" for thousands of years, so why would it be so surprising that we would allow, and even to some degree encourage, wars that could very well bring about the "end" of this planet.   

  

Why? Why? Why?  Why are we just sitting back and ALLOWING this to happen? 

  

I would say part of the reason is that we've all been "programmed" to believe we can't do anything about it.  That it's all happening because that is "what is supposed to happen".  So we're not even trying to live peacefully with one another.  As long as there are enough people justifying war with one another, there will always be profits for those selling them the Weapons of War.  And as long as one side or the other feels it is their "divine right" or "destiny" to "fight evil", there will be profits to be made by those selling them the Weapons of War to do it. 

  

I'm telling you, on the whole, we have bought into this scheme pretty much hook, line and sinker for hundreds, even thousands of years now.  Each time, the Real Powers in Charge have managed to stop us short of totally destroying the planet.  However, steady fighting in one area of the world or another, means steady profits.  Unfortunately, their control of the Weapons of War, especially nuclear weapons, is starting to slip through their fingers.  No longer is it just a matter of one or two major super powers calling the shots, instead it can be a very determined, intelligent, and persevering "band" of fanatical terrorists in the position to hold the rest of the world "hostage". 

  

The only way for things to really change, is for more people to actually take a stand against war as a solution to political conflicts. Period.  However, as long as enough people in the world see all this as "inevitable" then that is what we will continue to experience.  If that is our "meditation" then that is what we will continue to "become" and that is the legacy that we will pass on to the generations to come. 

  

Trust me, the people at the very top of this pyramid, don't want to see the planet destroyed, because that means they will be destroyed with it.  No, they just want to keep all the rest of us at each other's throats while they continue to profit from our addiction to war and our unwillingness to practice love instead.  For the record, I'm not going to call them "evil", they're just making the best of a situation that we have agreed to, and keep agreeing to, individually and collectively. 

  

The real battle has to be won INSIDE.  That is where the "meditation" has to change and only then will we start to see something different manifesting in the world. 

  

Sincerely In Peace, Love and Understanding, 

  

Turtle Love 

I read "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" twice.  The first time through, the historical work hung together but the second time through I saw some major flaws in their proof.  It was at least 10 years ago now because my Grandmother was alive and arguing with me about it :) I sure miss that old lady! 

  

I don't think there is sufficient evidence regarding that bloodline of Christ theory, but it is pretty clear that the Magdaline had a very significant role in the early church as did Jesus' brother James. 

  

BTW-I am a member of a masonic order and I can assure you we don't have those kinds of secrets.  It is about doing charitable work in your community without the objects of the charity knowing that they are objects of charity.  If there was a whopper of a story like protecting the decendants of Christ, I'd have heard it by now :) 

  

I agree that war and violence are wrong and I am clear in my stand against any form of torture or killing. I can't tell you how chilling it is from an outsider's perspective to hear your president say that God told him to start a war.  If he did, we have different gods. 

 
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March 7, 2006, 10:36 am PST

Response to JoeyJohn Re: Other Bible Prophecies

A friend of mine gave me a book for Christmas called, The Fated Sky.  It discusses the role that astrology has played in much of the rulership and decision making of societies all around the world for centuries.  How much of it is "accurate prediction" and "self-fulfilling prophecy" is really hard to determine.  

 

What is key is the desire to "predict the future" and by so doing, to have some sense of "control" either over that future itself, or one's life relative to it.  We want to control what happens to us, and even if we can't we want to think that some how we can figure out all the mechanisms involved.  We are mostly concerned about our own deaths, or the deaths of our family members or tribe, or country.  And as long as we are focused on what is "transient" rather than what is "eternal" that concern will remain.  

 

None of the prophets or astrologers were quantum physicists.  None of them had direct access to Knowledge of Reality at that level.  For them to predict that human beings would always be at war with one another in some fashion or another, was not that hard a prediction to make given their own experiences of history.  Furthermore, with respect to Jesus "fulfilling the prophecies", it might hold more weight if he himself did not actually know what those prophecies were and therefore how to shape his life to embody them.  But he did know.  He was raised in that culture and was fully educated about its teachings and its prophecies.  Has anyone considered that in their "calculations"?  

 

Do you think the victims of the Tsunami may carry with them for generations to come stories and tales of The Great Wave that swept through their lands, their homes and their lives and imagine that the very same thing may happen again in the future?  That there will be a deep psychic imprint of that event in their minds and their hearts and that some day there may be myths that evolve from it?  Or, if they attribute such an occurrence to a "judgment" from God that they might create rituals to perform in hopes of reclaiming God's regard and preventing such a catastrophe from ever happening again?  Have you seen the program that shows pretty clearly that the Tsunami was caused by a radical upheaval of the earth's crust beneath the ocean which resulted simply from the random movement and compression of tectonic plates?  In other words, it was not a "judgment" from God, it was a "judgment" from geology.  

 

So, first of all, I'm sad to say that we humans really haven't evolved that much, especially, spiritually.  We may have extraordinary technology, but our actual understanding of REALITY across the broadest spectrum of the population is very, very, very limited.  So we continue to relate to one another "as if" we are "separate": separate from God and separate from each other.  And the points of view of all the prophets and most people today reflect that very same idea, over, and over and over again.  From ancient Eastern Wisdom it is understood that "Wherever there is an 'other', fear arises."  And war is a manifestation of that basic belief in separateness and resulting fear. 

 

JoeyJohn, I appreciate your commitment to your point of view and the determination you have in expressing it and supporting it.  So I am somewhat hesitant to ask, how open are you to seeing and feeling BEYOND it?  Or maybe transcending the possible limitation of it?  Can you imagine that there are now people in the world who genuinely see everything from a very different point of view?  A "broader" point of view, a more "inclusive" point of view?  That includes the science of reality as well as the mystery? 

 

Given all of the different aspects of reality and human nature that you could focus on, what will be your focus?  What will be your "meditation"?  What is it that you really want to manifest here or see manifested?  Can you be open to all kinds of possible future outcomes for this world, or are you determined to focus on just one because then you will have a sense of control over your own destiny?  And if you choose the "end of the world" scenario you are currently focusing on, can you tell me why that appeals to you?  How does it make you feel to believe that is what is ahead for all of us?  How does such a belief "benefit" you? 

 

You asked, what did the prophets of old have to gain from their predictions . . .  well, obviously, they had quite a bit of prestige within their communities, but, as I have stated earlier, they may have had some sense of "control" over their own destinies and those of their tribes because they felt they could "predict the future". 

 

Personally, if Prophecy is so powerful that it can actually create the future it is supposedly predicting, from my point of view anyway, it might be time to consider coming up with some new (and possibly "better" more "life supporting" prophecies. : )))  

 

In Peace, Love and Understanding,

  

 

  

Turtle Love

  

 

  

 

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March 7, 2006, 11:46 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Joeyjohn-do you actually believe everything in the bible is literally true? Like the Garden of Eden and the apple? Or Noah's Arc?
 
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March 7, 2006, 4:11 pm PST

I'm new to this message board!

Hi, my name is Cheryl

  

 

  

  

  

For quite a while, I have been reading a variety of Dr. Phil’s message boards.  Today, I created a username so I could join in on this one in particular.  Looks as if Christians aren’t too welcome on the other boards when they started discussing religion, so I thought I’d give this one a go.  I am new to this type of discussion, so please bear with me.  

 

  

I have been following this thread from the beginning so I know a little about what is going on.  

  

I have a few questions for JudyBlue since you sound like you know a lot about the Bible. In regards to a recent comment you made. “I have referred people to scripture for their consideration but I do not pretend to know what Jesus condones or does not condone…”    

  

I think I read somewhere that you are a Christian? Roman Catholic? If so, this is interesting.  Isn’t Jesus’ words in red letter in your Bible?  Maybe try a more modern version?  

  

  

To JoeyJohn…regarding  I don't agree 100% with all of the Baptist theology including the part about women preachers but I still feel God is telling me to stay put.”  I haven’t studied this for myself, but I heard that the reason that the women were to “ be silent in the churches” in Paul’s day was because of the way the churches were set up.  The men sat on one side of the church and the women on the other.  During the service the “uneducated women” (as you say), disturbed the services by asking their husbands (across the “aisle” -  was there an aisle, who knows?) what the speaker was talking about.  Have you or anyone else heard of this?
 

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March 7, 2006, 4:57 pm PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: cheryl_56

Hi, my name is Cheryl

  

 

  

  

  

For quite a while, I have been reading a variety of Dr. Phil’s message boards.  Today, I created a username so I could join in on this one in particular.  Looks as if Christians aren’t too welcome on the other boards when they started discussing religion, so I thought I’d give this one a go.  I am new to this type of discussion, so please bear with me.  

 

  

I have been following this thread from the beginning so I know a little about what is going on.  

  

I have a few questions for JudyBlue since you sound like you know a lot about the Bible. In regards to a recent comment you made. “I have referred people to scripture for their consideration but I do not pretend to know what Jesus condones or does not condone…”    

  

I think I read somewhere that you are a Christian? Roman Catholic? If so, this is interesting.  Isn’t Jesus’ words in red letter in your Bible?  Maybe try a more modern version?  

  

  

To JoeyJohn…regarding  I don't agree 100% with all of the Baptist theology including the part about women preachers but I still feel God is telling me to stay put.”  I haven’t studied this for myself, but I heard that the reason that the women were to “ be silent in the churches” in Paul’s day was because of the way the churches were set up.  The men sat on one side of the church and the women on the other.  During the service the “uneducated women” (as you say), disturbed the services by asking their husbands (across the “aisle” -  was there an aisle, who knows?) what the speaker was talking about.  Have you or anyone else heard of this?
I have to say, I'm not much of a fan of sarcasm, but I will respond to your post to me anyway.  I can and do read the words of Jesus, but that does not give me the ability to say that I know what Jesus would say to another person about their life.  I pray and follow what I am told in my life and that is enough for me.
 
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March 7, 2006, 6:16 pm PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: judyblue22

I have to say, I'm not much of a fan of sarcasm, but I will respond to your post to me anyway.  I can and do read the words of Jesus, but that does not give me the ability to say that I know what Jesus would say to another person about their life.  I pray and follow what I am told in my life and that is enough for me.

I'm sorry if my qeustion to you sounded sarcastic.  I guess that was a bad way to start off my posting. Sorry.  I'm just here trying to find out what people believe and why they believe it.  I'll save the sarcasm for my family. 

  

  

 

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March 7, 2006, 8:09 pm PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: cheryl_56

I'm sorry if my qeustion to you sounded sarcastic.  I guess that was a bad way to start off my posting. Sorry.  I'm just here trying to find out what people believe and why they believe it.  I'll save the sarcasm for my family. 

  

  

Smile-s'ok, you didn't offend me.  I just find sarcasm and ridicule shut down discussions.
 

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March 8, 2006, 4:57 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

I've been pouring over the interesting posts and points of view of the past 24 hours.  The questions and the personal testimonies are fascinating. 

  

I thought I'd add my 'cents' worth toward some of the issues recently addressed. 

  

THE JESUS AND MARY MAGDALENE RELATIONSHIP - WOMEN IN THE CHURCH 

I think it is undisputed that Jesus held Mary Magdalene with special affection.  Just as He regarded others who turned from a sinful way to embrace His teachings.  That is what is written in the bible, nothing less and nothing more that I've interpreted.   

  

That said, what of the recently found (1945) Gnostic Gospels?  Some supposedly written by Mary Magdalene, Thomas and perhaps a 'secret' gospel according to John.  In these gospels the role of women in not only the church but in God as well,  is honored and respected.  Gnostic writings speak of God in imagery and terms that is both male and female.   "I am the Father; I am the Mother; I am the Son" God says in The Aprocryphon of John.  In these gospels Mary Magdalene is recognized as a favorite disciple of Jesus.  As far as being written that she was His wife I have found no evidence of that. In the Gospel of Mary Magdalene Levi admonishes Peter for doubting her words he said, "If Jesus made her upright, who are we to disown her?  Jesus knew her well; that's why He loved her more than us."  

 

These gospels are not recognized by the church, and it is not my intent to idealize them as holy scripture, as they are relatively recent findings.  If we look back at the history of theologians that influenced the bible and it's translations it is apparent to me that the message has been altered if only slightly in the interpretors wordage.  Will these new 'gospels be recognized as canonical scripture?  Perhaps they will and perhaps they won't.  As an individual on my own journey I will never close the door to the possibility that the word of God is a completed and done deal.  It's worth a look , and if anyone has further insight into these gospels, please enlighted with your opinion. 

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi 

 

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March 8, 2006, 5:49 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: trtlelove

Although I've been quiet for a little while, this is one topic I think has more critical implications for our society than maybe any other, and probably not for the reasons many of you may be thinking. 

  

First of all, I would encourage any person in this country who has been influenced by the our Judeo/Christian heritage to take the time to read Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Laurence Gardner.  Although he covers some of the information "revealed" in Dan Brown's book, The DaVinci Code, with the primary emphasis being the possibility/probability of Mary Magdalene actually being Jesus' wife, Gardner's book predates Brown's by about 10 years, is "academic" rather than "dramatic" in its approach, and, I feel, accesses more credible resources to build its case. 

  

What I learned from reading the book myself was, first and foremost, how language shapes our culture and our reality.  When one word in one language is translated (or, as often happens, mis-translated, either intentionally or unintentionally) it can completely change the reality that the first word was trying to describe.  For example, the difference between the Latin "virgo" and "virgo intacto".  Guess what: "virgo" means simply "young woman".  "Virgo intacto" means "virgin" in the sense that we understand it today.  So, with respect to Mary the Mother of Jesus, as Gardner explains, "virgo" was (mis) translated as "virgo intacto", i.e. from "young woman" to "virgin". 

  

Now think about it.  How much emphasis is placed on the "virgin birth" of Jesus?  How much of the current "doctrine" of Christianity depends on that interpretation?  

  

There's really no denying that there is A LOT hanging on that one word. 

  

So let's look at the word "revelation" and how that is different from a "prophecy". 

  

From one on-line dictionary "revelation" means:  Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.  Whereas "prophecy" means: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration. 

  

Of "Revelations" Gardener points out that, first of all, the intent of John's writing was just that, to "reveal" information about something that was already going on and using symbolic language that represented very specific "characters" and political powers that the people of the day would recognize.  Keep in mind, the whole time Jesus is around, the Jews are under the rule of the Romans.  And partly because of that, the Jews could not claim other "kings" as their own, or from their own population  (i.e. Jesus was claimed to be "King of the Jews" and the Romans saw that as a threat to their own rule).   Consequently, a considerable part of the "scriptures" were "coded" so that the Jewish people would "get the (hidden) message" but the Romans would see nothing but an "allegorical story" or "parable".    

  

Second, hundreds of years later, the first compilers of the scriptures were being very deliberate in their own manipulation of the material to create a certain "mindset" in the masses.  To suggest that John's "Revelations" were actually  "prophecies" was a way of putting people in a place to seek "protection" and "salvation" before the "end time".  And of course, they turned to the Church for that protection and salvation, often paying quite well for such services.  Nevertheless, John, himself did not call them "prophecies".  John called them  "Revelations". 

  

That being said, I have communicated over and over again through my posts, YOU BECOME WHAT YOU MEDITATE ON.  I think this happens individually and collectively.  We have had this "end time scenario" to "meditate on" for thousands of years, so why would it be so surprising that we would allow, and even to some degree encourage, wars that could very well bring about the "end" of this planet.   

  

Why? Why? Why?  Why are we just sitting back and ALLOWING this to happen? 

  

I would say part of the reason is that we've all been "programmed" to believe we can't do anything about it.  That it's all happening because that is "what is supposed to happen".  So we're not even trying to live peacefully with one another.  As long as there are enough people justifying war with one another, there will always be profits for those selling them the Weapons of War.  And as long as one side or the other feels it is their "divine right" or "destiny" to "fight evil", there will be profits to be made by those selling them the Weapons of War to do it. 

  

I'm telling you, on the whole, we have bought into this scheme pretty much hook, line and sinker for hundreds, even thousands of years now.  Each time, the Real Powers in Charge have managed to stop us short of totally destroying the planet.  However, steady fighting in one area of the world or another, means steady profits.  Unfortunately, their control of the Weapons of War, especially nuclear weapons, is starting to slip through their fingers.  No longer is it just a matter of one or two major super powers calling the shots, instead it can be a very determined, intelligent, and persevering "band" of fanatical terrorists in the position to hold the rest of the world "hostage". 

  

The only way for things to really change, is for more people to actually take a stand against war as a solution to political conflicts. Period.  However, as long as enough people in the world see all this as "inevitable" then that is what we will continue to experience.  If that is our "meditation" then that is what we will continue to "become" and that is the legacy that we will pass on to the generations to come. 

  

Trust me, the people at the very top of this pyramid, don't want to see the planet destroyed, because that means they will be destroyed with it.  No, they just want to keep all the rest of us at each other's throats while they continue to profit from our addiction to war and our unwillingness to practice love instead.  For the record, I'm not going to call them "evil", they're just making the best of a situation that we have agreed to, and keep agreeing to, individually and collectively. 

  

The real battle has to be won INSIDE.  That is where the "meditation" has to change and only then will we start to see something different manifesting in the world. 

  

Sincerely In Peace, Love and Understanding, 

  

Turtle Love 

Oh Turtle Love I must say that although it may take me more than one reading to gather my understanding of your messages, it's worth the effort!  Your illumination about the human condition is beyond brilliant.   

  

I think that I've said that my personal view of the path to Righteousness is a culmination of Loving Jesus,  and in Loving All things Universal.  I whole heartedly agree that the ulimate battle must be won inside.  My intellect nudges me toward some sort of deep knowing that The Revelations of John are an omnipresent message, that is perhaps only a peek into just what our existance ultimately is.  Much the same I feel that time and space are an enigma that we haven't yet discerned. ( That I'll save for another post ; )) 

  

 I very much agree with what you say,  you become what you meditate on.   

  

I believe that through prayer and meditation ( which to me are one and the same), we are better able to harness our strength and become what we think upon.  The act of prayer and meditation is not always a conscious act,  as it can be simply the 'tapes' that run through ones mind consistantly.  Is it not our inevitable and pre-scripted duty to God and to All that we will make a significant effort in programming our 'tapes' to play positive and Godly music in our minds ears?  Thereby taking a stand against war and all things that are hateful.  Things that have been accepted without much collective indifferance will become intolerable to the masses.  Our conditioning should then effectively change on both an individual and collective scale, correct? 

  

Do you feel there are signs and indications that this is happening now?  

  

Peace 

  

Fredi    

  

  

 

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March 8, 2006, 6:35 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

I have enjoyed reading the apocrypha (books that were excluded from the official bible) and the gnostic texts but I didn't really find anything that changed my way of relating to God-they all tell the same basic story. The Gospel of Thomas is particularly interesting- it has a more intimate feel.
 

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