Topic : An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

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Created on : Friday, March 03, 2006, 09:33:47 am
Author : trtlelove

For the record, this topic has been posted to accomodate many threads that tend to end up discussing religion and our beliefs about God, etc.   We would like to maintain an open and peaceful tone for all to participate and simply share their points of view and experience, exchanging ideas, asking and answering each other's questions, etc.

 

From my own personal experience, I have been writing mostly on the original "Twisted Love" thread so if anyone wants to get more background they can look me (or anyone else) up there by using  "Search Boards" above (next to "Boards Archive" and "Profile", etc.) and type in any of our user names in the "blank box".  This will bring up everything we have posted and the responses we have given to each other's posts.

 

Peace and Love All-Ways,

 

Turtle Love (user name "trtlelove")



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March 11, 2006, 2:55 pm PST

I know what's on the web . . . .

Quote From: blcksheepy

I went googling for Adi Da, and found a long law suit from a 19 year old university student who joined group.    When he first went there his girlfriend and he were required to take alcohol and drugs, and seperated.     Then Adi Da forcibly kept the g.f. (a playboy playmate)in the house with him (as his 9th  "wife).    It's long, but if you look at it make sure you read down around paragraphs 38 onward.     Have you read this Turtlelove? 

  

Here is short excerpt.   If you read the whole thing you will be shocked.   Looks like a cult to me, and the guy sounds like typical cult leader lecher.    This often seems to be the case when some guy persuades others that they have "special powers".   They get to use and abuse (and get rich). 

  

57.) Late the second night, on or about September 3, 1976, while within the sphere of the personal presence of defendant MASTER DA, and while being verbally demeaned, plaintiff MILLER was forcibly removed from MASTER DA's living room at the Sanctuary by an upper level disciple and told that although plaintiff's girlfriend, Julie Anderson, would be kept in the house with defendant MASTER DA, plaintiff MILLER would not be allowed back inside the house.  

  

  

Read further and you will note that here's another paragraph - around 80 - that describes how "god" beat up one of his wives in Fiji and "broke her neck".  

  

  

Blksheepy,

Just so you know, I am fully aware of this suit.  I am also fully aware of the ENTIRE CONTEXT of this particular individuals complaint.  Everyone who was involved with "Master Da" as He was referred to then, came to Him with very little understanding of what to expect of a "True Guru".  When their expectations were not fulfilled, many responded with overt anger and resentment, and some even filed suits against Him.

Keep in mind, not everyone around Jesus was totally happy with what he was doing either. Otherwise, they would not have found grounds to "crucify" him.

Just as there are people in the world who will look hard enough to find a reason  to doubt what's in the Bible, you have looked and already found a reason to doubt Adi Da and His Wisdom-Teaching.  I will not try to keep you from doing that.  However, I think you will be missing the point, just as many people who seek to discredit the Bible have also missed the point of Jesus' Teaching.

Sincerely Yours in Peace,

Turtle Love
 
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March 12, 2006, 9:20 am PST

What the heck?

Here is a different subject.   It is copied from Brietbart.com.  What the heck? 

  


Hecklers harass families of US soldiers killed in Iraq

Five women sang and danced as they held up signs saying "thank God for dead soldiers" at the funeral of an army sergeant who was killed by an Iraqi bomb.

For them, it was the perfect way to spread God's word: America was being punished for tolerating homosexuality.  

 

For the hundreds of flag waving bikers who came to this small town in Michigan Saturday to shield the soldier's family, it was disgusting.  

"That could be me in that church," said Jackie Sandler whose son Keith is currently serving his second tour of duty in Iraq.  

The fringe group of fire and brimstone Baptists from Kansas has been courting controversy for more than 15 years, traveling the country with their hateful signs and slogans.  

The Westboro Baptist Church first gained national notoriety when they picked the funeral of Matthew Shepard, a Wyoming student who was murdered in 1998 for being gay.  

They have since picketed the funerals of Frank Sinatra and Bill Clinton's mother, celebrated the terrorist attacks of September 11 as an act of God's wrath, and have even targeted Santa Claus and the Ku Klux Klan.  

But it was the callousness and cruelty of harassing the grieving families of soldiers at dozens of funerals across the country that has sparked a grassroots movement of bikers determined to drown out the jeers and taunts.  

In Flushing, Michigan they turned their leather-clad backs to the five women and held flags and tarps up so that mourners walking past wouldn't see the signs saying "God hates fags," "fag vets" and "America is doomed."  

Many found it hard to hide their anger when Margie Phelps, the daughter of Westboro's founder, called out "All this for little old us? Oh, you shouldn't have. I feel so special," before she started singing "the Pope, the Pope, the Pope is on fire. He don't get no water let the heretics burn" in front of a Catholic church.  

The glee with which the women hurled insults made John Franklin, 64, sick to his stomach.  

"This guy's family deserves a peaceful funeral. It's not right what they're doing," said Franklin, who fought in the Vietnam War. "The only reason they're able to walk around like that is because the veterans fought for their freedom."  

While Westboro's congregation remains stable at around 100 people - most of whom are the extended family of founder Fred Phelps - the ranks of the Patriot Guard Riders has swelled to more than 16,000 in just a few months.  

The protests come at a time when many Americans think the war in Iraq was a mistake but are anxious to show their support for the troops.  

Four states have enacted legislation barring protests at funerals and a dozen more are in the process of introducing bans. But it is unlikely that the bans will stand up to legal challenge.  

The group is careful to protest in public spaces and is well aware of its constitutional rights - 11 of Phelps' 13 children are lawyers.  

"This nation is poised to trash the first amendment just to stop my preaching," Fred Phelps said in a telephone interview. "I'm kind of honored."  

Phelps said he and his congregants are targeting the funerals because God's way of punishing an "evil nation" of "fags and fag enablers" is to "pick off its children."  

"I don't have any sympathy for these parents. They're all going to hell," Phelps said. "The family's in pain because they haven't obeyed the Lord God."  

The group is so outrageous that some among the extreme-right have speculated that Phelps is a plant aimed at giving the anti-gay movement a bad name, said Mark Potok, the director of the intelligence project at the Southern Poverty Law Center which tracks hate crimes.  

"I don't think they have any constituency beyond their own members - even the Nazis aren't interested," he said.  

Phelps' virulence and frequently graphic condemnations of anal sex could mask a deeper issue than a radically literal interpretation of the Bible, Potok speculated.  

"This man probably thinks more about gay sex than any other person in the United States of America and one can only guess at what that means," he said. "Many of the most homophobic people are deeply afraid that they might be gay."  


 

 

  

 

 

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March 12, 2006, 12:20 pm PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

That is horrible, blcksheepy!  I am sure that these people mean well but the hatred and insensitivity is certainly not Christian.  I wish they wouldn't pretend to be from any particular faith-it gives us all a black eye!
 
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March 13, 2006, 2:54 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: judyblue22

There is a theory that Jesus made love to Mary Magdalene and that she was pregnant and fled to France after the Crucifixion.  That is the source of the "Holy Grail" mythology which was supposed to be a chalice that held the blood of Christ. I don't think it has been proved but there certainly is more to the Magdalene than just a repentant sinner.  She traveled with Jesus and the disciples. 

Not only did she travel with them, but according to some books,  she was held in the highest esteem by Jesus himself.    So much in fact that she caused discontent and strife between Jesus and the disciples because Jesus would share information with Mary that he wouldnt with the disciples.  This upset the disciples very much and they acted(imo)like petulent children giving Jesus grief for "loving her the most". 

  

The idea of children was a new one to me.  I had heard about Jesus being married  a long time ago but never heard about  the possibility of children.  Im wondering... does anyone know of any actual books where it addresses Jesus and possible children?  I havent come across any(that arent written in ficiton form)myself but am curious.   

 
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March 13, 2006, 5:02 am PST

Why Are We So Quick Too Judge?

Quote From: trtlelove

Blksheepy,

I have to work on a paper for school this weekend, that's why I have not fully responded to your posts on this subject.  But I am going to, I promise.

Right off the bat, though, I will confirm to you that Adi Da was never "into Scientology", although He does have an ongoing project called The Basket of Tolerance, an extensive bibliography  in which He Considers and Comments on works representative of just about every religious and philosophical point of view currently existing, so I'm sure He's covered Scientology there.

Furthermore, before you draw too many conclusions about me or Adi Da, be aware that I have had the past nine years to THOROUGHLY CONSIDER and Live His Wisdom-Teaching, so that kind of puts me at a bit of an advantage for the moment.  Trust what you have already grown to "know" about me, with respect to my overall communication here on this site, with respect to the feelings I have towards others generally, and my  desire to encourage tolerance and cooperation and peace wherever and whenever I can.

It seems to me, the fact that I have learned to be that way with some help from Adi Da should not make all that much difference between us.  If it does, well, I will be sorry for any loss of relationship with you, but I will not make any judgments about you or anyone else if that is how they choose to react.

Sincerely in Peace, Love and Understanding,


Turtle Love

I have been away from the board for a bit, and I felt somewhat saddened as I was 'catching up' on the past few days posts. 

  

I regard Turtle's opinions and belief's with the same openess as I regard the other poster's, that is with respect and compassion, ( or at least I hope that is what I've conveyed here ).  In reading some of the posts regarding Adi Da, I felt disapointment that some concluded his teachings may reflect cultish or sinister motives. 

  

Of all posters, ( myself included ) I have found Turtle Love to communicate with acceptance, honesty, Love and complete openess.  I understand that something that is radically different from our comfort zones usually instill feelings of suspiscion and perhaps even fear.  Turtle's choice to follow her heart and expand her inner awareness through the teachings of Adi Da seems very deeply considered and I cannot speak for her, but it seems to me that she meditated and researched this branch of faith thoroughly.   

  

In earlier posts Turtle Love said that she loves Jesus.  I respect that.  Recently she opened herself and her belief's in Avi Da, for anyone to see.  I also respect that, for she must have known that his teachings would certainly make many suspiscious.  Obviously the media portrays Guru's and cults in a very negative light, as there have been sensational stories to fuel moral outrage, and rightly so.  We must remember fanatism has also been linked to christianity, ( most recently the news post from Blck Sheepy ).  Not too mention the ratings grab in the media of very recently, in which I find that christianity is being exploited through a few maniacal "believers".   

  

To look up Avi Da's 'history' on the net and conclude that this may be an ominous cult, is in my opinion a bit hasty.  If one is uncomfortable with the seemingly non-conforming aspects of this religion that is for their heart to resolve.  I bet one could google Jesus' name and certainly uncover negative aspects of His teachings.  I don't know much about Avi Da.  I've visited the site and I honestly can not form an opinion, maybe in 8 or 9 years ; ) !  I do know that Jesus' disciples were murdered for their unwavering faith in His teachings.  Long before this message board, I've often asked myself this question: "If Jesus were here preaching the Good News now, during my lifetime and for the very first time in history, would I follow?  Would I choose to risk my life and become a disciple for him?"     

I can't say for certain, but sadly for me I don't think so.  I had the "luxury" of being raised a christian.  It is inherently instilled in my  pysche.  Fortunately others came before me and spread the word of Jesus.  Others paid with their lives on this earth.  I just happen to hit the timeline jackpot in christian time.  It's safe, it's for the most part accepted, it's a part of the society I live in.  And even so I have had to delve into it.   I needed to contemplate the concepts of christianity before I really believed and returned fully to His church. 

  

My thought process regarding others more 'abstract' beliefs is this, what do they convey?  How do they interact with others, particularly strangers?  How do they make you feel?  Are they inflicting injury on myself or others?  Are they at Peace? 

  

In the words of Mother Teresa, "Each person we come into contact with should leave feeling better about themselves".   

For me personally Turtle Love often does exactly that.   

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi  

 
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March 13, 2006, 6:11 am PST

Thanks

Quote From: fredastare

I have been away from the board for a bit, and I felt somewhat saddened as I was 'catching up' on the past few days posts. 

  

I regard Turtle's opinions and belief's with the same openess as I regard the other poster's, that is with respect and compassion, ( or at least I hope that is what I've conveyed here ).  In reading some of the posts regarding Adi Da, I felt disapointment that some concluded his teachings may reflect cultish or sinister motives. 

  

Of all posters, ( myself included ) I have found Turtle Love to communicate with acceptance, honesty, Love and complete openess.  I understand that something that is radically different from our comfort zones usually instill feelings of suspiscion and perhaps even fear.  Turtle's choice to follow her heart and expand her inner awareness through the teachings of Adi Da seems very deeply considered and I cannot speak for her, but it seems to me that she meditated and researched this branch of faith thoroughly.   

  

In earlier posts Turtle Love said that she loves Jesus.  I respect that.  Recently she opened herself and her belief's in Avi Da, for anyone to see.  I also respect that, for she must have known that his teachings would certainly make many suspiscious.  Obviously the media portrays Guru's and cults in a very negative light, as there have been sensational stories to fuel moral outrage, and rightly so.  We must remember fanatism has also been linked to christianity, ( most recently the news post from Blck Sheepy ).  Not too mention the ratings grab in the media of very recently, in which I find that christianity is being exploited through a few maniacal "believers".   

  

To look up Avi Da's 'history' on the net and conclude that this may be an ominous cult, is in my opinion a bit hasty.  If one is uncomfortable with the seemingly non-conforming aspects of this religion that is for their heart to resolve.  I bet one could google Jesus' name and certainly uncover negative aspects of His teachings.  I don't know much about Avi Da.  I've visited the site and I honestly can not form an opinion, maybe in 8 or 9 years ; ) !  I do know that Jesus' disciples were murdered for their unwavering faith in His teachings.  Long before this message board, I've often asked myself this question: "If Jesus were here preaching the Good News now, during my lifetime and for the very first time in history, would I follow?  Would I choose to risk my life and become a disciple for him?"     

I can't say for certain, but sadly for me I don't think so.  I had the "luxury" of being raised a christian.  It is inherently instilled in my  pysche.  Fortunately others came before me and spread the word of Jesus.  Others paid with their lives on this earth.  I just happen to hit the timeline jackpot in christian time.  It's safe, it's for the most part accepted, it's a part of the society I live in.  And even so I have had to delve into it.   I needed to contemplate the concepts of christianity before I really believed and returned fully to His church. 

  

My thought process regarding others more 'abstract' beliefs is this, what do they convey?  How do they interact with others, particularly strangers?  How do they make you feel?  Are they inflicting injury on myself or others?  Are they at Peace? 

  

In the words of Mother Teresa, "Each person we come into contact with should leave feeling better about themselves".   

For me personally Turtle Love often does exactly that.   

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi  

Dear Fredi, 

  

I do appreciate your consideration and your willingness to express yourself openly here as well.  You have made me feel "understood" and I have learned that that is the true measure of understanding, i.e. how the other person experiences it.  I don't get that experience of "being understood" very often, so it means a lot to me. 

  

Thanks again. 

  

Sincerely in Peace and Love, 

  

Turtle Love 

 
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March 13, 2006, 7:50 am PST

Hi Fredi

Quote From: fredastare

I have been away from the board for a bit, and I felt somewhat saddened as I was 'catching up' on the past few days posts. 

  

I regard Turtle's opinions and belief's with the same openess as I regard the other poster's, that is with respect and compassion, ( or at least I hope that is what I've conveyed here ).  In reading some of the posts regarding Adi Da, I felt disapointment that some concluded his teachings may reflect cultish or sinister motives. 

  

Of all posters, ( myself included ) I have found Turtle Love to communicate with acceptance, honesty, Love and complete openess.  I understand that something that is radically different from our comfort zones usually instill feelings of suspiscion and perhaps even fear.  Turtle's choice to follow her heart and expand her inner awareness through the teachings of Adi Da seems very deeply considered and I cannot speak for her, but it seems to me that she meditated and researched this branch of faith thoroughly.   

  

In earlier posts Turtle Love said that she loves Jesus.  I respect that.  Recently she opened herself and her belief's in Avi Da, for anyone to see.  I also respect that, for she must have known that his teachings would certainly make many suspiscious.  Obviously the media portrays Guru's and cults in a very negative light, as there have been sensational stories to fuel moral outrage, and rightly so.  We must remember fanatism has also been linked to christianity, ( most recently the news post from Blck Sheepy ).  Not too mention the ratings grab in the media of very recently, in which I find that christianity is being exploited through a few maniacal "believers".   

  

To look up Avi Da's 'history' on the net and conclude that this may be an ominous cult, is in my opinion a bit hasty.  If one is uncomfortable with the seemingly non-conforming aspects of this religion that is for their heart to resolve.  I bet one could google Jesus' name and certainly uncover negative aspects of His teachings.  I don't know much about Avi Da.  I've visited the site and I honestly can not form an opinion, maybe in 8 or 9 years ; ) !  I do know that Jesus' disciples were murdered for their unwavering faith in His teachings.  Long before this message board, I've often asked myself this question: "If Jesus were here preaching the Good News now, during my lifetime and for the very first time in history, would I follow?  Would I choose to risk my life and become a disciple for him?"     

I can't say for certain, but sadly for me I don't think so.  I had the "luxury" of being raised a christian.  It is inherently instilled in my  pysche.  Fortunately others came before me and spread the word of Jesus.  Others paid with their lives on this earth.  I just happen to hit the timeline jackpot in christian time.  It's safe, it's for the most part accepted, it's a part of the society I live in.  And even so I have had to delve into it.   I needed to contemplate the concepts of christianity before I really believed and returned fully to His church. 

  

My thought process regarding others more 'abstract' beliefs is this, what do they convey?  How do they interact with others, particularly strangers?  How do they make you feel?  Are they inflicting injury on myself or others?  Are they at Peace? 

  

In the words of Mother Teresa, "Each person we come into contact with should leave feeling better about themselves".   

For me personally Turtle Love often does exactly that.   

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi  

  

I can only speak for my own feelings, not anyone else here.    This is what I feel.   I personally admit to being guilty of judging Turtlelove (even before I have interacted with her for 8/9 years) to be very smart, loving and kind.   I enjoy her posts and respect her freedom of choice regarding religion.   If this is against the rules  then I guess I am in the wrong place.   I thought message boards were about opinions.    That is my judgement of Turtlelove.   If this is offensive then I apologize right now. 

  

I have also judged and formed an opinion about Adi Da, because of copies of law suits that appear on Google.   They are not just gossip or opinions, but law suits so I am thinking they have some merit?   I am open to the possibility that I am wrong of course, but have that  opinion at this time.      

If we are not to voice our opinions then I think the message board is just small talk and pussy footing around.    

  

In my opinion this is a cult.   If saying so is abusive or not respectful then I guess I am in the wrong place, and I apologize for offending, especially to Turtlelove.    

  

Here is another excerpt.   If the lady is lying she will have to commit perjury I think?   That is serious business.  My  inclination is that there is basis for her statements. 

  

The suit, filed in Marin Superior Court, was brought by a former member of the Johannine Daist Communion against the group and its leader, known as "Da Free John". In the legal action, Beverly Jacobs O'Mahony alleges that she was brain-washed, beaten, sexually abused and defrauded of property during the years she belonged to the sect.  

She said Da Free John, whose original name was Franklin Jones, lives on a $2.5 million island in Fiji and that members turn over all their money and property to the sect.  

    

 

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March 13, 2006, 8:23 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: blcksheepy

  

I can only speak for my own feelings, not anyone else here.    This is what I feel.   I personally admit to being guilty of judging Turtlelove (even before I have interacted with her for 8/9 years) to be very smart, loving and kind.   I enjoy her posts and respect her freedom of choice regarding religion.   If this is against the rules  then I guess I am in the wrong place.   I thought message boards were about opinions.    That is my judgement of Turtlelove.   If this is offensive then I apologize right now. 

  

I have also judged and formed an opinion about Adi Da, because of copies of law suits that appear on Google.   They are not just gossip or opinions, but law suits so I am thinking they have some merit?   I am open to the possibility that I am wrong of course, but have that  opinion at this time.      

If we are not to voice our opinions then I think the message board is just small talk and pussy footing around.    

  

In my opinion this is a cult.   If saying so is abusive or not respectful then I guess I am in the wrong place, and I apologize for offending, especially to Turtlelove.    

  

Here is another excerpt.   If the lady is lying she will have to commit perjury I think?   That is serious business.  My  inclination is that there is basis for her statements. 

  

The suit, filed in Marin Superior Court, was brought by a former member of the Johannine Daist Communion against the group and its leader, known as "Da Free John". In the legal action, Beverly Jacobs O'Mahony alleges that she was brain-washed, beaten, sexually abused and defrauded of property during the years she belonged to the sect.  

She said Da Free John, whose original name was Franklin Jones, lives on a $2.5 million island in Fiji and that members turn over all their money and property to the sect.  

    

Smile-I think you should feel free to voice your opinions.  Isn't that part of examining them?  I have voiced some controversial opinions here myself :) 

  

If turtlelove is representative of the people following this Adi Da, I doubt if he is dangerous or bad.  You know the tree by it's fruit.  I admit that I was taken aback by his assertion that he was God, but then I actually believe that Mother Teresa was divine in her own way, so it isn't that shocking to me.  If you read or listen to his teachings, his  message is not evil. 

 

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March 13, 2006, 8:28 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: momisme2

Not only did she travel with them, but according to some books,  she was held in the highest esteem by Jesus himself.    So much in fact that she caused discontent and strife between Jesus and the disciples because Jesus would share information with Mary that he wouldnt with the disciples.  This upset the disciples very much and they acted(imo)like petulent children giving Jesus grief for "loving her the most". 

  

The idea of children was a new one to me.  I had heard about Jesus being married  a long time ago but never heard about  the possibility of children.  Im wondering... does anyone know of any actual books where it addresses Jesus and possible children?  I havent come across any(that arent written in ficiton form)myself but am curious.   

Holy Blood, Holy Grail--by Michael Baigent is the book I read.
 

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March 13, 2006, 10:10 am PST

An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

Quote From: trtlelove

Dear Fredi, 

  

I do appreciate your consideration and your willingness to express yourself openly here as well.  You have made me feel "understood" and I have learned that that is the true measure of understanding, i.e. how the other person experiences it.  I don't get that experience of "being understood" very often, so it means a lot to me. 

  

Thanks again. 

  

Sincerely in Peace and Love, 

  

Turtle Love 

Not only do I understand you, I think we have some shared history.  My parents were very devout Catholics.  We ate fish on Fridays and went to church every Sunday.  Every night, after dinner, they lit candles, turned out the lights and rolled back the carpet and we all knelt on bare wood and said the three decades of the rosary (30 hail Marys and 3 our fathers) and repeated the apostle's creed. I remember clearly being old enough to realize that what we did was "weird" and none of us ever told our friends about that ritual. 

  

My mom had some weird beliefs too.  She really thought there was a guy called the devil running around causing trouble for Christians and kept an eye out for him.  It scared me until I realized thatwe were way too small potatoes to interest him, even if such a man existed.. 

 

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