Topic : An Open Consideration of Reality and Religious Beliefs

I read "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" twice.  The first time through, the historical work hung together but the second time through I saw some major flaws in their proof.  It was at least 10 years ago now because my Grandmother was alive and arguing with me about it :) I sure miss that old lady! 

  

I don't think there is sufficient evidence regarding that bloodline of Christ theory, but it is pretty clear that the Magdaline had a very significant role in the early church as did Jesus' brother James. 

  

BTW-I am a member of a masonic order and I can assure you we don't have those kinds of secrets.  It is about doing charitable work in your community without the objects of the charity knowing that they are objects of charity.  If there was a whopper of a story like protecting the decendants of Christ, I'd have heard it by now :) 

  

I agree that war and violence are wrong and I am clear in my stand against any form of torture or killing. I can't tell you how chilling it is from an outsider's perspective to hear your president say that God told him to start a war.  If he did, we have different gods. 

A friend of mine gave me a book for Christmas called, The Fated Sky.  It discusses the role that astrology has played in much of the rulership and decision making of societies all around the world for centuries.  How much of it is "accurate prediction" and "self-fulfilling prophecy" is really hard to determine.  

 

What is key is the desire to "predict the future" and by so doing, to have some sense of "control" either over that future itself, or one's life relative to it.  We want to control what happens to us, and even if we can't we want to think that some how we can figure out all the mechanisms involved.  We are mostly concerned about our own deaths, or the deaths of our family members or tribe, or country.  And as long as we are focused on what is "transient" rather than what is "eternal" that concern will remain.  

 

None of the prophets or astrologers were quantum physicists.  None of them had direct access to Knowledge of Reality at that level.  For them to predict that human beings would always be at war with one another in some fashion or another, was not that hard a prediction to make given their own experiences of history.  Furthermore, with respect to Jesus "fulfilling the prophecies", it might hold more weight if he himself did not actually know what those prophecies were and therefore how to shape his life to embody them.  But he did know.  He was raised in that culture and was fully educated about its teachings and its prophecies.  Has anyone considered that in their "calculations"?  

 

Do you think the victims of the Tsunami may carry with them for generations to come stories and tales of The Great Wave that swept through their lands, their homes and their lives and imagine that the very same thing may happen again in the future?  That there will be a deep psychic imprint of that event in their minds and their hearts and that some day there may be myths that evolve from it?  Or, if they attribute such an occurrence to a "judgment" from God that they might create rituals to perform in hopes of reclaiming God's regard and preventing such a catastrophe from ever happening again?  Have you seen the program that shows pretty clearly that the Tsunami was caused by a radical upheaval of the earth's crust beneath the ocean which resulted simply from the random movement and compression of tectonic plates?  In other words, it was not a "judgment" from God, it was a "judgment" from geology.  

 

So, first of all, I'm sad to say that we humans really haven't evolved that much, especially, spiritually.  We may have extraordinary technology, but our actual understanding of REALITY across the broadest spectrum of the population is very, very, very limited.  So we continue to relate to one another "as if" we are "separate": separate from God and separate from each other.  And the points of view of all the prophets and most people today reflect that very same idea, over, and over and over again.  From ancient Eastern Wisdom it is understood that "Wherever there is an 'other', fear arises."  And war is a manifestation of that basic belief in separateness and resulting fear. 

 

JoeyJohn, I appreciate your commitment to your point of view and the determination you have in expressing it and supporting it.  So I am somewhat hesitant to ask, how open are you to seeing and feeling BEYOND it?  Or maybe transcending the possible limitation of it?  Can you imagine that there are now people in the world who genuinely see everything from a very different point of view?  A "broader" point of view, a more "inclusive" point of view?  That includes the science of reality as well as the mystery? 

 

Given all of the different aspects of reality and human nature that you could focus on, what will be your focus?  What will be your "meditation"?  What is it that you really want to manifest here or see manifested?  Can you be open to all kinds of possible future outcomes for this world, or are you determined to focus on just one because then you will have a sense of control over your own destiny?  And if you choose the "end of the world" scenario you are currently focusing on, can you tell me why that appeals to you?  How does it make you feel to believe that is what is ahead for all of us?  How does such a belief "benefit" you? 

 

You asked, what did the prophets of old have to gain from their predictions . . .  well, obviously, they had quite a bit of prestige within their communities, but, as I have stated earlier, they may have had some sense of "control" over their own destinies and those of their tribes because they felt they could "predict the future". 

 

Personally, if Prophecy is so powerful that it can actually create the future it is supposedly predicting, from my point of view anyway, it might be time to consider coming up with some new (and possibly "better" more "life supporting" prophecies. : )))  

 

In Peace, Love and Understanding,

  

 

  

Turtle Love

  

 

  

Joeyjohn-do you actually believe everything in the bible is literally true? Like the Garden of Eden and the apple? Or Noah's Arc?

I've been pouring over the interesting posts and points of view of the past 24 hours.  The questions and the personal testimonies are fascinating. 

  

I thought I'd add my 'cents' worth toward some of the issues recently addressed. 

  

THE JESUS AND MARY MAGDALENE RELATIONSHIP - WOMEN IN THE CHURCH 

I think it is undisputed that Jesus held Mary Magdalene with special affection.  Just as He regarded others who turned from a sinful way to embrace His teachings.  That is what is written in the bible, nothing less and nothing more that I've interpreted.   

  

That said, what of the recently found (1945) Gnostic Gospels?  Some supposedly written by Mary Magdalene, Thomas and perhaps a 'secret' gospel according to John.  In these gospels the role of women in not only the church but in God as well,  is honored and respected.  Gnostic writings speak of God in imagery and terms that is both male and female.   "I am the Father; I am the Mother; I am the Son" God says in The Aprocryphon of John.  In these gospels Mary Magdalene is recognized as a favorite disciple of Jesus.  As far as being written that she was His wife I have found no evidence of that. In the Gospel of Mary Magdalene Levi admonishes Peter for doubting her words he said, "If Jesus made her upright, who are we to disown her?  Jesus knew her well; that's why He loved her more than us."  

 

These gospels are not recognized by the church, and it is not my intent to idealize them as holy scripture, as they are relatively recent findings.  If we look back at the history of theologians that influenced the bible and it's translations it is apparent to me that the message has been altered if only slightly in the interpretors wordage.  Will these new 'gospels be recognized as canonical scripture?  Perhaps they will and perhaps they won't.  As an individual on my own journey I will never close the door to the possibility that the word of God is a completed and done deal.  It's worth a look , and if anyone has further insight into these gospels, please enlighted with your opinion. 

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi 

Oh Turtle Love I must say that although it may take me more than one reading to gather my understanding of your messages, it's worth the effort!  Your illumination about the human condition is beyond brilliant.   

  

I think that I've said that my personal view of the path to Righteousness is a culmination of Loving Jesus,  and in Loving All things Universal.  I whole heartedly agree that the ulimate battle must be won inside.  My intellect nudges me toward some sort of deep knowing that The Revelations of John are an omnipresent message, that is perhaps only a peek into just what our existance ultimately is.  Much the same I feel that time and space are an enigma that we haven't yet discerned. ( That I'll save for another post ; )) 

  

 I very much agree with what you say,  you become what you meditate on.   

  

I believe that through prayer and meditation ( which to me are one and the same), we are better able to harness our strength and become what we think upon.  The act of prayer and meditation is not always a conscious act,  as it can be simply the 'tapes' that run through ones mind consistantly.  Is it not our inevitable and pre-scripted duty to God and to All that we will make a significant effort in programming our 'tapes' to play positive and Godly music in our minds ears?  Thereby taking a stand against war and all things that are hateful.  Things that have been accepted without much collective indifferance will become intolerable to the masses.  Our conditioning should then effectively change on both an individual and collective scale, correct? 

  

Do you feel there are signs and indications that this is happening now?  

  

Peace 

  

Fredi    

  

  

I have enjoyed reading the apocrypha (books that were excluded from the official bible) and the gnostic texts but I didn't really find anything that changed my way of relating to God-they all tell the same basic story. The Gospel of Thomas is particularly interesting- it has a more intimate feel.

I was considering why I don't feel the need to tell other people how to live their lives in accordance with the bible. I see that others see this as their duty.  I don't just feel it isn't my duty, I actually feel a prohibition stopping me from doing so. 

  

This may sound a bit nuts but I do feel guidance from God when I pray.  I believe what comes to me in those quiet questioning moments is the will of God. I have not always obeyed Him and my biggest stumbling block to obedience is my pride.  God has taken the trouble to humble me more than once ~grin~ and I admit I needed it.   

  

I think that because I have that prideful failing, I am hesitant to ever preach to another.  It might be lawful or even what God demands for someone else to preach to others if they don't have my failings, but I definately feel that it is off limits for me. 

  

Judy here is something for you to reflect upon.  I have personally attained delightful knowledge from reading your posts.  Perhaps God is using you as a 'tool' without your even being aware.  I agree that some people feel a calling to teach and share their wisdom about God, others like you do not feel it is their place to do so.   

  

I believe that we all learn from each other according to where our ears are.......if we have an open mind and heart we will inherently receive anothers message.  I have to the best of my ability received / heard lovely pieces of wisdom from this forum.  Most of which were recognized in me without the author even attempting to preach. 

  

God works in mysterious ways.  I am ever grateful that He does! 

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi 

Dear Fredi, 

  

You know, it comes up in odd places . . . . like this message board for instance.  And, every once in a while, there will be a particularly clear message even via media like TV. 

  

For instance, one show I saw maybe a year ago was called, The Journey of Man (it was on PBS).  In it, this genetic anthropologist tracked genetic markers all the way back to our really original ancestors, who turned out to still be living as a tribe of Tsong bushmen in Africa.  Through his research, he was able to plot every step of the migration of human beings from that group (of course starting many thousands of years ago) to the present populations all over the world and including every "race".   

  

What was maybe the most amazing were the photographs: You can clearly see the Tsong bushmen and all of the essential elements there in their faces; i.e. their skin is medium brown, therefore having the potential to evolve into being darker or lighter.  You see the various shapes of eyes and noses, etc. that later became "European", "Asian", "Native American", "East Indian", etc, etc.  You know, the story was so compelling, that just thinking about it now is bringing tears to my eyes. 

  

At the end, you see this young anthropologist who happens to be tall, very fair skinned, blue eyed and strawberry blonde haired, smiling with an array of other "racially representative people" affirming that we really have all descended from the same genetic lines, that we really are all part of "one family", in spite of all of the perceivable "differences" that have evolved over time. 

  

I just watched Wayne Dyer this weekend (PBS was doing their regular fund raising drive) and he had a woman on there from Rawanda.  She spent 90 days along with seven other women hiding in a bathroom that was three feet by four feet wide.  Every day she was threatened with the machete's of people who used to be her friends and neighbors and if they had found her and the other women, they would have killed them.  And yet, some how, in the midst of that horror, she Realized God, she Realized what was the absolute truth of her nature and it was ultimately loving and compassionate even towards those who would have killed her and did kill everyone else in her family.  She wrote her story later and Wayne Dyer helped to get it published.  I just checked and here's the info from Amazon.com:  Left To Tell : Discovering God Amidst the Rwandan Holocaust by Immaculee Ilibagiza  

Even when she was speaking on stage and afterwards, you could just see how truly "radiant" she was. 

  

And of course, Wayne Dyer has been talking to thousands and thousands of people for years now on how we are all intimately involved in what is manifesting here and that we need to be taking that role much more seriously and being "mindful" of our thoughts and how they "expand" into the Universe. 

  

You know,  in quantum physics it takes a considerable amount of energy to shift an "electron" from one "level" of energy to another within the structure of an atom.  It's often referred to as a "quantum leap".  It doesn't happen gradually, instead it's a real "jump" from one level to another. 

  

I truly believe that there is energy building in this system of the world and in Consciousness as we know it to make a "leap".  I think such "leaps in awareness" will still happen first on the individual level, but the cumulative effect will be significant shifts in culture and society.  I have a feeling, possibly within our lifetimes, many of us are going to see and maybe even be a direct part of some major changes, and not long after that, we will be wondering how we could go on as long as we did without realizing and understanding what was always right there in front of us. 

  

Right now, we are still dealing with "inertia", the fundamental "resistance to change" (and, by the way, from an electronics point of view, such resistance is present even in the simplest wire conductor.  Again, it is just part of the system. : )).  So it really is about each and every person who is already aware, continuing to consciously manifest or "conduct" love "energy" in each and every moment of their lives and in whatever circumstance or relationship in which they find themselves. 

  

And, you know, even if it doesn't change the world (although I really do think it will in the long run), each person who chooses to do that, will simply be a happier person.  They will have the opportunity to experience more true joy in their lives, for whatever time they are here. 

  

From my point of view, that's a "Win/Win" situation . . . . : )) 

  

Sincerely Yours in Peace and Love, 

  

Turtle Love 

I agree that the Gnostic Gospels in over all content do not vary much from the New Testament.  The one particular that I found to be different in it's messages was the role of women in the context of God.  In the Gnostic texts their role appears to me much more defined and present, than what is written in the New Testament.  I know this role is not lost entirely in the NT, I simply feel it does not bear as much emphasis as what is found in the other texts.  

  

The Gospel of Thomas which is sometimes called the 'fifth' gospel, I agree again has a more intimate feel.  I think it more closely resembles the gospels in the NT and therefore gives the reader a familiar feel. 

  

Peace, 

  

Fredi