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Topic : 07/06 Baby Wars

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Created on : Thursday, April 13, 2006, 01:22:17 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
(Original Air Date: 04/21/06) Being a parent is hard enough, but what happens when Mom and Dad can't agree on how many kids to have, how to raise 'em and how to get ‘em to sleep?  Sometimes, it can lead to an all-out baby war! Matt's baby battle ended up in front of a judge and made headlines. He was ordered to pay child support for the baby he had with his ex-girlfriend, but he says he shouldn't have to cough up the money because she told him she wasn't able to get pregnant, and he told her he didn't want to be a father. He, his attorney, and the director of the National Center for Men discuss the lawsuit they filed, known as “Roe v. Wade for Men,” arguing that men should have a constitutional right to avoid fatherhood. Next, Dan says even though he and his wife, Lisa, already have four children, he wants just one more. Lisa has been pregnant on and off for 11 years and says she's closed for baby business. Will Dr. Phil help Dan see Lisa's point that four is enough? Then, a frustrated husband is camping out on the roof of his house and living in a tent. He refuses to go back to his bedroom until his wife moves their kids out of their bed and starts paying more attention to him. Can Dr. Phil get him to come down the ladder? Plus, a sleep expert has a simple method for getting your child to sleep through the night. See the plan in action! Share advice and talk about the show here.

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April 22, 2006, 6:57 pm PDT

AGREEMENTS

Quote From: amominma

Wow, you would like a man in your life to tell you what to do with your body?  I think you're selling yourself a bill of goods if you think that's a good idea.  Possibly this is your husbands view?  This is America, not a Middle Eastern country.  

  

LOOK. THIS GUY JUST SIGNED TO AT LEAST AN 18 YEAR CONTRACT THAT HE DIDN'T WANT.  

  

   AND TO TOP IT OFF IT WAS MADE UNDER FALSE PRETENCE. NO COURT IN THE COUNTRY   

WOULD HOLD ANYONE TO THIS.  OH. EXCEPT THE FRIEND OF THE COURT. WHERE DID THEY COME UP WITH THAT NAME ANYWAY... 

 
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April 22, 2006, 7:01 pm PDT

Baby wars

Quote From: deans_wife

Sorry a baby is not a 50- 50 split until born.  The woman carries the child, she should and does have far more control, control to eat, drink, smoke, excercise, seek medical care, etc, right or wrong it is her body!  He had a choice and chose not to use protection - protection for himself, from VD, pregnancy etc.   

Isnt forcing a woman to do something to her body against her will much like rape?  a forced abortion is a sick idea.  

You must have missed my point! I was not saying a man has any right to force a women to have an abortion, but I don't think a women should be able to have one if the man does not want her to have one. Yes it is the womans body, but just like a man knows the consequences of unprotected sex so does a woman. She knows what her body will have to go through if she gets pregnant, so just because it is her body doesn't mean he shouldn't have the same choices! Seems to me a lot of people are missing the point, this is not about whether or not he should step up and take responsibility (which I think he should) but that he should have the same rights to make that choice for himself! 

 
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April 22, 2006, 7:02 pm PDT

Amen, sister

Quote From: dejavue

 I respectfully disagree with your argument and your reasoning.  Equality does not equate to sameness.  Men and women are equal, but they are not the same.  The trend towards eradication of any acknowledgement of the inherent, biologically based differences in men and women is obvious in our culture and this lawsuit is a manifestation of that trend.

You state, "We can't be selfish 'just' because it's our bodies, just because we're the womb.'  This statement leaves me puzzled.  'Just'?  Yes,  the crux of the issue lies in the fact that we are talking about OUR BODIES.  Because pregnancy happens to my body and my body alone, reproductive choices that I must make after the fact of conception are mine and mine alone.  A man can father a child of whom he is completely unaware for his entire life.  That could never happen to me.  Is this 'fair'?  Obviously, fair is not the issue.

But if this is not evident to you, and you feel strongly that 'fair' is the issue, then I offer this response; the individual in this triangle who had absolutely no choice in this matter is the CHILD, not the father.  Conflicts of rights is a common legal issue.  In this case, you have to evaluate the rights of three individuals, not two.  There are the mother's rights, the father's rights, and the child's rights. 

In determining which rights should take precedence over the others, culpability and vulnerability are considered.  In this matter, clearly, the child was the individual devoid of choice and culpability.  This child has the right to the financial support of both parents.  Every society has a vested interest in protecting it's children.  The courts will not rule against the most vulnerable party in this issue.

I am certain of it.  And I believe that this line of reasoning is logically sound and just.

This is not a matter of objecting to the 'tables being turned' against women.  In many respects, biology does not favor women.  Women are more likely to be abused by their partners and to die in domestic disputes.  Women are more likely to live in poverty due to their previous spouses defaulting on their responsibilities to children that were planned and chosen.  Women are more likely to raise children completely alone without any help whatsoever from their previous mates.  Is this fair?  No, but that's life.  Life isn't always fair.

I speak as a woman who has raised my child completely alone, without any assistance from my daughter's father or any government entity.  This was not my choice.  My ex husband pleaded with me to bear him a child.  I definitely didn't expect him to abandon that child so completely and utterly.

But I don't bemoan the 'injustice' of this unchosen set of circumstances.  I step up to the plate to handle the responsibilies of my life and I find joy and satisfaction in doing so.

This 'victimization' mentality so rampant in our present culture is just ridiculous.  This young man has been convinced that he is a victim in a situation which he exercised no efforts to ensure the desired outcome (no pregnancy) that he claims was of vital importance to him.  If he felt this strongly about it, he should have taken matters into his own hands.  He didn't.  He gave his personal power away in the matter by placing the onus of responsibility to prevent pregnancy on the woman.  Now, he's whining about his unfair victimization and how society isn't protecting him from the consequences of his actions.

I really hope the loser grows up enough to be embarrassed by this when and if he ever truly becomes a man.


I am in complete agreement with you.  I don't think anyone could have put better words to it. 

 
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April 22, 2006, 7:09 pm PDT

Amen, Sister

Quote From: groovy

(I had to censor a few words.)   

   

March 21, 2006   

   

Are all of you out there following the story about the smug frat-boy asshat who filed a lawsuit claiming that men have the right not to pay any support for a child they fathered by accident?  The press has taken to calling the case "Roe v. Wade for Men."     

   

The case was filed at the U.S. District Court in Detroit by an organization called the National Center for Men.  However, the plaintiff is Matt Dubay, a 25-year-old computer technician from Saginaw, Mich., who claims he and his ex-girlfriend did not always use birth control because she believed she could not get pregnant due to a medical condition. But the couple, who were together for about three months, did conceive, and Dubay's ex elected to keep the child, for whom he now pays $500 a month in child support, despite his contention that he was always clear about not wanting the child.   

   

In pursuing the case, NCM and Dubay have likened the case to a woman's right to abortion and have actually sought to create an alliance with pro-choice activists in order to help their cause (needless to say, most pro-choicers are staying out of the debate.)   

Here's my take on THAT issue...   

   

(1) There is, at best, a very slight tangential connection to the ongoing debate in this country about abortion.  There is a critical difference between the right not to have to pay child support and the right not to be forced to bring an unwanted pregnancy to term inside your body.   

   

(2) I agree that it may not be fair that women have reproductive rights while men have reproductive responsibilities.  However, I think it's a pretty flimsy argument to say that ending paternity suits against men is the equivalent to legalizing abortion for women.  At the very least, it's an insulting argument no matter how you feel about abortion.     

   

Now, I'm not going to get into a debate about abortion and I'm purposefully keeping my views on that subject out of the discussion here because I think it's irrelevant.  The pertinent debate here really relates to the issue of child support.  And while some are hailing Dubay as a champion for men's rights, I'm of the opinion that he falls squarely into the "deadbeat dad" category.     

In fact, I'm so pissed off about this ridiculous "Roe v. Wade for Men" case that I thought I'd use this forum to pass along some advice to young Mr. Dubay.   

   

Here's the deal, Numb Nuts.  Pay attention because I'm only going to say this once.  It's pretty f**king simple.  Since you're a computer technician, I'll even try to put in terms a dips**t like you could understand.  Ready?     

   

When you stick your little firewire penis into your girlfriend's hard drive, you do so with the knowledge that if you bring a life into this world, that life is your responsibility!  Even if it means living in your parent's basement for a few years, working a second job at McDonalds, or driving an econo-van instead of a Viper!   

   

Clearly, you're not a gentleman but, at the very least, be a f**king man!  Step up to the plate, you little weasel!  I know that current child support laws tend to favor women.  Is that fair?  Maybe not.  But you know what, young Jedi?  As you get older, you'll realize that life and biology aren't always fair.     

   

As you get older, I also hope you'll learn that actions have consequences and that the best you can do as a human being is to take responsibilities for those actions.  It's part of what being a real man is all about.     

   

And aside from an opposable thumb, it's what separates us from the animals.   

It seems to me that that boy (and I wouldn't call him a  man, just because he was able to reproduce) was never taught about natural consequences by his parents. I'll bet that everytime he got himself into trouble, they came running to bail him out. And now that he got himself into trouble he couldn't get out of, he's using the legal system to try. I hope the women of the world remember his face and name and avoid him like the plague to human kind he is.
 
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April 22, 2006, 7:11 pm PDT

GIFTS

Quote From: setfree_2

I am certain that someday there will be regret in this mans life what a beautiful child he's already shunned for what she had no choice in as for the mommy I am well on her side she like a lot of other women always for some reason or another thought in some way she could not get pregnant, I felt that way before I ever had children and I now have 6 awsome very productive young adults in which I would never have denied them their full life benifits of growing up with their biological parents, blessedly I had the same for a mate he also beleived in the same for Gods will not ours no matter how well protected God will bring life in his plan no other way except it,or shatter a perfect and devine plan.  

I do hope for this guy to see the truth and reasoning before his daughter gets any older I know none of mine were planned by self or husband just came and unconditionally excepted loved with out no remorse and are given both parents in life to help them become their best and nothing less if he does nothing else in life worth purpose at least this one he could say I stood by and excepted without no regrets.  

Children are valuable gifts for a new generation not pieces of trash to just throw to the curb.  

God Bless,  Mother & child   

  

  

 YES YOUR RIGHT , THEY ARE GIFTS.  BUT THATS NOT THE ISSUE, SEE MAY HAVE DID THIS DELIBERATELY AND THAT IS WHAT IS SO WRONG.  THERE ARE GIRLS OUT THERE THAT ARE USING BABIES AS A WAY TO GET A FREE RIDE (so they think) , NOT WORK AND STAY HOME WITH THE CHILD IF THEY CAN ONLY GET PREGNANT WITH SOME RICH GUYS KID.  

  AND DON'T THINK IT HASN'T HAPPENED.   I KNOW  IT HAS.  

 
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April 22, 2006, 7:16 pm PDT

baby war

i agree with some of the readers, i believe that no matter what the mother of this child said it's up to you as a responsible adult to use protection as well if you don't want to be a parent. now you have a child and it's time you step up and be a parent.
 
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April 22, 2006, 7:18 pm PDT

04/21 Baby Wars

Quote From: betsy39

If he cannot cry 'victim,' why can a woman cry it and ask for help when she decided to have the baby? She decided to have sex, THEN to have the baby.
 I don't advocate a victimization mentality for ANYBODY.  It never serves a person to give away his or her personal power.  Child support is the right of the CHILD, not the woman.


 
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April 22, 2006, 7:21 pm PDT

04/21 Baby Wars

Quote From: cnicho6925

I can't believe what I am hearing.  Spoken like a true leader!!!  Judging by your writing, I can tell that you are a VERY intelligent person.  And that, my friend, is what causes such a strong debate about this issue.  Those who are educated are more likely to view an argument from BOTH sides, while others simply hold their ground and refuse to budge.  As you stated earlier, that is a selfish place to be.  I truly hope there are many others like you out there to help combat this ignorance.  Instead of brow beating Matt, others need to put themselves in his position and then they will understand 
 You seem to be asserting that there is only one reasonable conclusion to be reached by consideration of this matter.  How is that different from those you imply are ignorant for 'holding their ground and refusing to budge'?
 
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April 22, 2006, 7:23 pm PDT

04/21 Baby Wars

I think that Matt is doing exactly what he should do!   

Both he and the mother had a choice to have unprotected sex- they should both have a say in the outcome. As a single mother I can't help but wonder if there would be a great many less "deadbeat dads" if men were given an equal say in the creation of children, it seems completly logical to me that a person who feels "trapped" or like they were not given an equal say would not feel obligated to step up to the plate and contribute their time or money to the raising of that child.  Certainly no one would have forced me to be responsible for a child I did not want ,  and had I chose to give my son up I am sure no one would hold it against me for not being ready to take on that much responsiblity.   

It would be unthinkable for any person who supports abortion to suggest that just because a woman opted to have sex she should bear the weight of that desision for the rest of her life, the same should apply to men. And it is equally abhorrant to think that the choice to have or not to have a child affects only women, both genders will live with the consequences for the rest of thier lives, whether a child is aborted or not.   

We as women need to start taking ownership of our own choices, and recognize that our desisions affect more than just ourselves.  

 
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April 22, 2006, 7:29 pm PDT

I AM QUOTING MYSELF...DOES ANYONE CARE?

Quote From: tiapet

My husband lived with a woman several years ago. At the time they met, she had 4 children with another man. Throughout the time she and my husband lived together, she stated that they were HER children...her responsibility through and through. Well, guess what? When they split up, she took my husband to court and won child support for 2 out of the 4 children (the other 2 kids were out of the home), plus alimony for a year. They also went back one year prior to when the court order was made and made him pay arrearages. My husband and I married in 2003. We, from I believe Sept. 2002 until May of 2004, paid $1175 dollars every month to this woman. We took her back to court when we suspected that she had neither of the children in her care and she gave up the current support but still demanded the arrearages to be paid. Since that time, we've paid $500/month to her and will continue to do for about another year. He NEVER married this woman, he NEVER adopted her kids, they NEVER called him Dad....this has put a horrible stress on our financial situation and our marriage.  How about that for justice???? I hope you read this post, Dr. Phil. I would really love to hear what you think about this. In fact, I am going to email a copy of what I just wrote to you.
Is anyone else in this same situation? If so, please can we get together somehow and discuss? Thanks!
 
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