Topic : 07/06 Baby Wars

Quote From: groovy

(I had to censor a few words.)   

   

March 21, 2006   

   

Are all of you out there following the story about the smug frat-boy asshat who filed a lawsuit claiming that men have the right not to pay any support for a child they fathered by accident?  The press has taken to calling the case "Roe v. Wade for Men."     

   

The case was filed at the U.S. District Court in Detroit by an organization called the National Center for Men.  However, the plaintiff is Matt Dubay, a 25-year-old computer technician from Saginaw, Mich., who claims he and his ex-girlfriend did not always use birth control because she believed she could not get pregnant due to a medical condition. But the couple, who were together for about three months, did conceive, and Dubay's ex elected to keep the child, for whom he now pays $500 a month in child support, despite his contention that he was always clear about not wanting the child.   

   

In pursuing the case, NCM and Dubay have likened the case to a woman's right to abortion and have actually sought to create an alliance with pro-choice activists in order to help their cause (needless to say, most pro-choicers are staying out of the debate.)   

Here's my take on THAT issue...   

   

(1) There is, at best, a very slight tangential connection to the ongoing debate in this country about abortion.  There is a critical difference between the right not to have to pay child support and the right not to be forced to bring an unwanted pregnancy to term inside your body.   

   

(2) I agree that it may not be fair that women have reproductive rights while men have reproductive responsibilities.  However, I think it's a pretty flimsy argument to say that ending paternity suits against men is the equivalent to legalizing abortion for women.  At the very least, it's an insulting argument no matter how you feel about abortion.     

   

Now, I'm not going to get into a debate about abortion and I'm purposefully keeping my views on that subject out of the discussion here because I think it's irrelevant.  The pertinent debate here really relates to the issue of child support.  And while some are hailing Dubay as a champion for men's rights, I'm of the opinion that he falls squarely into the "deadbeat dad" category.     

In fact, I'm so pissed off about this ridiculous "Roe v. Wade for Men" case that I thought I'd use this forum to pass along some advice to young Mr. Dubay.   

   

Here's the deal, Numb Nuts.  Pay attention because I'm only going to say this once.  It's pretty f**king simple.  Since you're a computer technician, I'll even try to put in terms a dips**t like you could understand.  Ready?     

   

When you stick your little firewire penis into your girlfriend's hard drive, you do so with the knowledge that if you bring a life into this world, that life is your responsibility!  Even if it means living in your parent's basement for a few years, working a second job at McDonalds, or driving an econo-van instead of a Viper!   

   

Clearly, you're not a gentleman but, at the very least, be a f**king man!  Step up to the plate, you little weasel!  I know that current child support laws tend to favor women.  Is that fair?  Maybe not.  But you know what, young Jedi?  As you get older, you'll realize that life and biology aren't always fair.     

   

As you get older, I also hope you'll learn that actions have consequences and that the best you can do as a human being is to take responsibilities for those actions.  It's part of what being a real man is all about.     

   

And aside from an opposable thumb, it's what separates us from the animals.   

Quote From: lunnychick

 Hi ..you and I have so much in common as wives......An OW attacked and preyed on the stupidity of our husbands who were gullible and yes, sadly unfaithful...probably because they were successful.     Of course she wanted something from your husband !   Women have always used their bodies to get ahead in the game of life....and of course the man has to pay !
But you and I understand that these sorts of women or not so innocent and are worse than pond skum....and why should they be rewarded for their predatory actions and decietfulness?... That to me is the worse offence, not the adultery.  I am surprized to see another wife who bucked  conventional dogma that says we should condemn our husbands and should divorce them...Good for you.   Hang in there...and good luck, because no matter what this is an emotional nightmare for the wife...because the affair is forever embodied in that child.  You may want to rid your self of the past, but sometimes the past won't let you so easily shake it.      Ignore these woman who bash you...they are probably OW who have attacked another's family.....Just selfish beyond belief.

Quote From: jai149

I have just recently just found out that I am pregnant with my third child.  My husband and I had discussed the possibility of a third but had said we'd talk about it "later".  My husband knew that I wasnt on any form of contraception, but was happy for us to have sex whenever he wanted to.  Now that I am pregnant he is saying that it is my fault and that this baby is going to be my responability in full.  Not to ask him to do a thing.  Since we had our two gorgeous kids his life hasnt changed a bit.  I do all the nappy changing, feeding, bathing - the list is endless.  He hasnt even gotten up once during the night and our kids are 3 and 2.  He still gets to go out with his friends, socialises and I am always left at home.  I dont mind this, but is it too much to ask for the occasionally hand.  I have an ultrasound next week and he wont even come to it with me.  it really hurts me that he is rejecting this child.  i have told him to get used to the idea or he knows where the door is.  I love my husband very much, but to me his behavior is a deal breaker.  Am I right in my thinking?  What I should I be doing to make this work out for the best?  And to make it easier for my other two children - My 3 year old is already picking up on what his father is saying and keeps telling me he doesnt want  a baby.  I just know what to do. 

Quote From: chikara1

This issue of men having a legal right in the decision of whether to abort has already been addressed by the United States Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52 (1976); Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992).  

  

The state cannot compel a woman to have an abortion and, therefore, neither can a husband or male partner. As the Court held in Danforth the State cannot "delegate to a spouse a veto power which the [State itself is absolutely and totally prohibited from exercising during the first trimester of pregnancy.'" Pp. 67-72. 

  

Do I think that men (spouses or not) should be consulted in the abortion decision? Absolutely, unless there are extenuating circumstances, e.g. abuse, rape, incest. But for men to have any legal right in the decision means that women do not have the absolute right to bodily autonomy in the first trimester of pregnancy. Note that men always have prtected rights in adoption cases. There are laws in every state about paternal notification and consent. Once the child is independent of the woman's body, the father's rights are protected. 

  

BTW, readers will note that I am a strong supporter of dad's rights. One of the most horrible decisions for dads to come down from the Supreme Court was Elk Grove Unified School District et al. v. Newdow et al. This was the "pledge of allegiance" case out of California. In this case, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the father who brought the suit had no standing, or no legal right, to bring the case because he was not the custodial parent. When this decision came down, my heart sunk. I thought, "well, there's another nail in the coffin for dads." 

Quote From: dejavue

 I respectfully disagree with your argument and your reasoning.  Equality does not equate to sameness.  Men and women are equal, but they are not the same.  The trend towards eradication of any acknowledgement of the inherent, biologically based differences in men and women is obvious in our culture and this lawsuit is a manifestation of that trend.

You state, "We can't be selfish 'just' because it's our bodies, just because we're the womb.'  This statement leaves me puzzled.  'Just'?  Yes,  the crux of the issue lies in the fact that we are talking about OUR BODIES.  Because pregnancy happens to my body and my body alone, reproductive choices that I must make after the fact of conception are mine and mine alone.  A man can father a child of whom he is completely unaware for his entire life.  That could never happen to me.  Is this 'fair'?  Obviously, fair is not the issue.

But if this is not evident to you, and you feel strongly that 'fair' is the issue, then I offer this response; the individual in this triangle who had absolutely no choice in this matter is the CHILD, not the father.  Conflicts of rights is a common legal issue.  In this case, you have to evaluate the rights of three individuals, not two.  There are the mother's rights, the father's rights, and the child's rights. 

In determining which rights should take precedence over the others, culpability and vulnerability are considered.  In this matter, clearly, the child was the individual devoid of choice and culpability.  This child has the right to the financial support of both parents.  Every society has a vested interest in protecting it's children.  The courts will not rule against the most vulnerable party in this issue.

I am certain of it.  And I believe that this line of reasoning is logically sound and just.

This is not a matter of objecting to the 'tables being turned' against women.  In many respects, biology does not favor women.  Women are more likely to be abused by their partners and to die in domestic disputes.  Women are more likely to live in poverty due to their previous spouses defaulting on their responsibilities to children that were planned and chosen.  Women are more likely to raise children completely alone without any help whatsoever from their previous mates.  Is this fair?  No, but that's life.  Life isn't always fair.

I speak as a woman who has raised my child completely alone, without any assistance from my daughter's father or any government entity.  This was not my choice.  My ex husband pleaded with me to bear him a child.  I definitely didn't expect him to abandon that child so completely and utterly.

But I don't bemoan the 'injustice' of this unchosen set of circumstances.  I step up to the plate to handle the responsibilies of my life and I find joy and satisfaction in doing so.

This 'victimization' mentality so rampant in our present culture is just ridiculous.  This young man has been convinced that he is a victim in a situation which he exercised no efforts to ensure the desired outcome (no pregnancy) that he claims was of vital importance to him.  If he felt this strongly about it, he should have taken matters into his own hands.  He didn't.  He gave his personal power away in the matter by placing the onus of responsibility to prevent pregnancy on the woman.  Now, he's whining about his unfair victimization and how society isn't protecting him from the consequences of his actions.

I really hope the loser grows up enough to be embarrassed by this when and if he ever truly becomes a man.

Quote From: jettav

then don't have sex and take chances or go get an operation!

Quote From: groovy

So what if women in Ontario don't choose to use that right.  We women in the U.S. don't have that choice.   Guess we should declare ourselves unequal & get out of our financial obligations just like Matt is trying to do.  

   

The rhetoric & twisted logic you & Matt are using to try to justify men not paying for the children they father is amazing.  In your world, men can breed like dogs & not have to pay a cent for the children they father.  

   

"Matt's penis, Matt's sperm, Matt's choice to have unprotected sex...  MATT's responsibilty"