Topic : Debating Among Different Religious Beliefs

Sorry.  Maybe you will see her at your place of employment, or you will be standing behind her in line at the grocery store, or passing her by on the street... etc. I believe that God puts these people in our day to day lives for a reason... so that we may testify to God's power and mercy.

That's a nice thought KL...however, God just doesn't "work" like that.  What you are talking about is some kind of intervention by another human being....that would save or help somebody.  If I see a woman at a grocery store...there is no way on earth I am going to know she's contemplating suicide, abortion, getting ready to "use"...or anything else. 

I am not ever going to start mindlessly preaching to people "just in case" they are thinking of doing something bad or even something "I" don't approve of.  If God is all powerful...then "He" needs to do some intervening because if people are going listen,. they will listen to HIM...not me.

What I was talking about, if you'll go back through my posts, is how easy it would be for me to be anti-abortion.  Why not?  I am pretty much past the child bearing years.  I've never had an abortion and am pretty certain I never would....(as certain as one can be never having experienced an unwanted pregnancy). 

So I could EASILY rally for abortion to become illegal again...VERY EASILY.  What I was saying is if I'm part of this...and abortion does become illegal again.....where will I be...when women or a woman...decides to contemplate suicide?  Where will "I" be...when she brings baby home from hospital...(because abusive husband won't sign adoption papers) to an abusive situation? 

I cannot, with conscience, decide these things....then pat myself on the back for a "job well done"....and glorify in my "good deed".  It's a nice, warm, comfy little thought...oh indeed it is...but it doesn't even come close to the reality some women face every day.

God...DOES NOT intervene...or we would not have suicides.  God..DOES NOT intervene or we wouldn't have thousands of abused children. 

 why 3, it should of only took 1 to figure out she couldn't have them?  Once she had the first one, and found out she couldn't have them anymore, she should have tied her tubes then.  She had to take 2 more lives before she decided to tie her tubes? 

You can't give a baby up for adoption if there are no parents or no place for it to stay. On top of that, there are 80,000 kids in the adoption system alone. 80,000. The foster/adoption system is so rediculously over-crowded that about 75% of those kids grow up unadopted, and end up in either prison, or on the street.

It's my understanding that there are more parents wanting to adopt then there are children waiting to be adopted.  Specifically the state's foster/adoption system is overcrowded because it is run by ridiculously inefficiant, not to mention over funded, government bureaucracies.  Another reason for why I support smaller government and faith based initiatives.  Speaking of inefficiant government programs, John Stossel presented a thought provoking documentary, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics,  on 20/20 last Friday...

http://thefreeturkey.com/?p=63

... did you see it?

 why 3, it should of only took 1 to figure out she couldn't have them?  Once she had the first one, and found out she couldn't have them anymore, she should have tied her tubes then.  She had to take 2 more lives before she decided to tie her tubes? 

I was only commenting on girls who decide to put their kids up for adoption, and those girls will not have to worry about hospital bills.  Mother's who decide to keep their babies are taken care of.  Even mother's who decide to keep their babies, can easily find organizations that will take care of the bills.  The government helps than out too.  If they act early enough, they can get hud housing, and have a home for it by the time they have their kid.  Most people abort because of selfish reasons, then they find reasons to rationalize it.  If you don't want a baby, use as much protection as you can.  If you abort, you are killing a human life.  There really is no way around that, so if you don't want babies, you should use preventive measures, and if you do get pregnant, I'd hope you'd have good nonselfish reasons to kill the baby growing inside of you.   I just think its barely different then killing an infant.  Furthermore, my sister wasn't lucky, any girl pregnant with a white baby in america, can EASILY find a good family to adopt.  There are thousands on waiting lists, the problem is, most people want newborn babies.  The older they get, the harder it is to adopt them.  All the other points you made about abortion, weren't really relevant to my point a view, since I'm prochoice.  I just think most abortions are just done out of selfishness, and imo I think people should be punished for every abortion.  I think if you are aborting babies out of selfishness, you should be charged a huge fine, so maybe next time you'll use protection.  The fact that there is protection against pregnancy, I think weakens a the prochoice argument.  If you have no health reasons to abort, or no other legitimate nonselfish reason to abort, I believe you have a moral obligation to at least give that child a chance at life.  I  just don't think they should be forced to.  It should be the law to make you keep it, but I do think it is immoral to kill a fetus for no good reason.

By the way, sugar used the ITA thing, I would guess, "I thoroughly agree"

By that one could argue that paraplegics don't have the right to live.  Someone in need of CPR, a blood transfusion, bone marrow, and an organ transplant doesn't have the right to live.

I don't see that as the same reasoning at all.  None of the things being provided (cpr, blood transfusion, etc.) you mentioned above would destroy another person.  Unless, of course, we killed one human being to give them their organ to another.  How many people would sign up to say....donate blood to make another human being alive...if it required 9 months of dedication to the process?  Certainly you would have some that would.....however, how about if people were forced to do this?

sug said I doubt seriously you would sign up for nine months of being hooked up to a total stranger

???? I did it 3 times

I'm not talking about your children.  You, like me, felt an immediate bond upon discovery of being pregnant.  However, how would you like being hooked up to a total stranger...for 9 months....as some women see the child growing in their womb as little more then that.

While victims of rape do not choose to be assulted, nor do they choose to become pregnant, they still have an opportunity to choose MERCY on the innocent human beings that they have been "hooked up to" and end the cycle of violence.

Well, like I've said many times...I would like to think I wouldn't abort in that situation and certainly the ideal situation FOR ME would be if every woman brought their pregnancy to term.  However, I can't speak for others nor judge them especially in the situation of rape.

What do you think happens to the souls of these aborted babies?  Do they go to hell?

Why should her opinion take precidence over scientific fact?  That she is the MOTHER of this "result"  or the law in other instances of pre-meditated murder?  That it is not permissible to take the life of innocent human beings... even if they are strangers

Because this embryo is hooked to "her" for the next 9 months in order to complete the "life" process.  Why should the mother's life.....be endangered, devastated and/or her family put in jeopardy, her future ruined and countless other things that a pregnancy COULD produce......when the soul of the embryo goes to heaven?

Unless, you don't believe that (they go to heaven) happens......then I don't understand why you put such a strong value on life when you can't guarantee a good life just because abortion doesn't take place.

What is so great about "life" anyway?  It's not like anybody lives forever.  And many people suffer horribly during "life" and only find peace....upon death.

Abortion has the POTENTIAL to be grossly damaging.

How is sending a little soul to heaven damaging?

Murder will happen with or without the law, theft will happen with or without the law, child abuse will happen with or without the law, rape will happen with or without the law.... etc, etc.

Granted...however, I would think if you feel women deserve better then being in the hands of a back alley butcherer....you could come to understand the desperation some women feel upon discovery of being pregnant.

Do you really believe that good doctors- who have gone through several years of medical school and internship, learning to save lives- aspire to open abortion clinics?  Legalized abortion has done nothing to guarantee safe abortions.  There are still risks and women are still suffering and dying, as have an even greater number of children, since abortion has become legal.

Just like with any medical procedure a woman has the responsibility of going to licensed doctors to have this done.  Just like any other medical procedure...there are NO guarantees.  There are still risks to having bypass operations...and people die during them. There is no guarantee I will live through the afternoon.

ITA...Red. 

Funny thing is a couple has to wait a long time for an adoption...however, only those that want the perfect child. 

My heart goes out to people who will adopt children with problems....it takes a lot of patience, money and time to deal with these problems......and it takes special people to open their hearts and homes to them.

I just don't see the conservative right concerning themselves much with what will happen AFTER baby is born into this cruel world.  They will certainly say adoption, adoption, adoption....however, it takes BOTH parents to sign the adoption papers and MANY men just won't do it.  Plus....if baby is not born "perfect"....there's a good chance he/she won't be adopted.

However, I'm still of the opinion that if the fetus could be removed harmlessly and kept in a womb simulated incubator to mature.....I would feel better about it....and yet....imagine the extraordinary cost.

I'm afraid that even if such a method could be scientifically invented.....society would reject covering the expense for this.  I'm afraid that women.... will always be left with the burden of this regardless of the cost to their lives or other children.  Anti-abortion activists don't want to "pay" for these fetuses...they just want to feel comfy in that "babies won't be murdered anymore".  Once that is accomplished the burden and cost to the pregnant woman will once again be left to the woman......and it's on to the next self soothing cause for the conservative right.

Well, your sister was able to do that. I'm glad she was able to carry and birth the baby and successfully give it up to a good set of parents. But that is still only her situation. The matter is, a woman still has to be able to afford health insurance and hospital bills while pregant, and her body has to be stable enough to withstand pregnancy. There are some women who's bodies cannot live through being pregnant, and then it becomes a risk for both mother and child.

I'm still prochoice, I just don't want any of my fetuses being aborted. 

I'm sure if you impreganted your partner, you two would be able to discuss it between yourselves. That's a good thing too. When my sister got pregnant, she and the father discussed every option first. It's a good idea to have both parents (if both parents are present) decide jointly on the issue. I've discussed with my own boyfriend what we would do if I were to get pregant, and we have come to mutual agreement. If both parents can reach agreement, then definately more power to them. It's definately your choice to decide that you don't want any fetuses that you father to be aborted, but you couldn't make that choice for women whom have babies that you have not fathered.

And for women who become pregant with partners that leave them (or who are pregant by rape) they can't nessessarily do that. If only one parent is there, there can't be much discussion.

and er...call me dumb, but what does ITA mean?

I read this post today on an Emily X (a woman who works for Planned Parenthood) blog today. This was someone telling their story and what happened to her when she was harassed by anti-choice protestors outside her clinic.

"I have had three abortions. Not because I am a whore and don't want children as I have three of them as we speak. Only one of which I gave birth to. It almost cost me my life and the life of my baby girl. She was barely hanging on and spent the first year and a half of her life in the hospital with severe illnesses. My body cannot handle the strain of pregnancy. I have tried... I wanted another baby... But the longest I have been able to carry a baby was 9 weeks and 1 day. And at the point that we terminated my final pregancy, I was almost dead. It took only 9 weeks to nearly kill me.

When I went into the clinic that day, I was approached by a protester and told not to terminate my pregnancy. Clearly seeing that I was not well, as my husband had to push me into the office in a wheele chair with myself hooked up to an IV, I looked at her and asked... "If I try to have this baby, are you going to come raise my three children when it kills me?" She looked very somber after that and just let us pass.

I don't think these people understand the severity of the situation when some of use are in despirate need of help. I have since had my tubes tied when it was confirmed that my body would not make it through another pregancy. I love my children, and am thankful everyday that I have my little girl. God gave me one miricle. But blessed me with two more when I married my husband. I am thankful everyday that I had somewhere to turn when I need it. But it makes me hurt when people pass judgement when they don't know whats going on. "

I feel very sorry for this woman and the unfair persecution she must face. I know some of you are going to immediately think "If she can't survive pregnancy, then how does she have three kids?" Adoption. She adopted her other two kids, and she already stated that the one pregnancy she lived through severely compromised her, and her daughter's health.