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Topic : 05/09 Finding Allene and Mollie

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Created on : Friday, May 05, 2006, 07:00:27 am
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Join Dr. Phil on an incredible journey in search of two missing girls, Allene, 13, and Mollie, 15, who were abducted by their father a year ago. The search is filled with suspense, traveling thousands of miles away from the U.S. through the jungles of a Third World country. Go inside a deeply religious community, known as the Hutterites, where the members live as if they were from a previous time: girls in bonnets and long dresses, transportation by horse and buggy and no electricity or running water. Will this global rescue mission lead to the recovery of two kidnapped children? Who has them and, more disturbingly, for what purpose? Talk about the show here.

Find out what happened on the show.

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May 9, 2006, 11:10 am CDT

05/09 Finding Allene and Mollie

Quote From: cariayton

So before I begin I would like to say that I am Atheist, and love learning about Buddhism, and I am open minded.

BOTH of those parents seriously need some help, I cannot imgaine either one of them being stable enough to care for those girls properly. WHAT IF, goodness forbid, ONE OF THEM GOT APPENDICITIS???! I mean THAT'S DEALY without MODERN medical and surgical care, and being so far out they may not get help in time.

Medicalcare is am important part of being healthy, having a proper diet and other considerations are important too.

I have no problem with their religion, I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT live in that community, but they can do what they want. I'll throw em a party..good for them..

I do not think either parent is interested in their girls well being, I think they are most interested in ways to themselves happy and content.

 Once again do not disrespect an entire group of people just because you do not understand them.  Amish and Mennonite people do not shun medical care and are fully capable of taking care of themselves.  Plus, they have much better diets than most English people who live on fast food and preservatives.  I cannot speak for the father in particular but the faith in general are happy, well adjusted Christian people who focus on family and God.  Just learn a little about them before you make any remarks.
 
May 9, 2006, 11:13 am CDT

PAS

This is nothing less then yet another story of Parental Alienation. That " Father " should be locked up for child abuse/neglect. He was set out to punish is ex-wife at any cost, even the cost of robbing his children of a relationship with their mother.There is no way of telling how messed up those girls are going to be from his acts of hate for his ex-wife.
 
May 9, 2006, 11:35 am CDT

05/09 Finding Allene and Mollie

Quote From: pathfnder

There is, of course, another possibility: that the girls preferred their father all along, went with him of their own free will, and enjoyed the Luddite lifestyle there.
Where do you get that their lifestyle was Luddite?
 
May 9, 2006, 11:53 am CDT

Where do we draw the line?

One's beliefs are sacred.  The girls sound reasonable, they don't look robotic.  My feeling is that they are way off to one side however, and perhaps a balance can be struck, but mom and dad need to stop using the kids to batter each other.  I think Mom is not quite right either.  For girls to be comfortable with their father, and to be so well spoken and to not want to go with their mother ... what's up with that?  

   

My only REAL concern for the girls in the life with their father is not the "old world conditions", other than health, but are these:  At what age are they expected to become wives and mothers?  Are they sexually abused in any way?  What are their beliefs regarding sexual conditioning/conduct, and what if any are the contradictions within those beliefs/practices.  If it were considered a natural path/pattern to their quote-unquote lifestyles, whould the girls actually be able to distinguish between sexual abuse and normalcy?  How old are the men with which they are encouraged to couple?  Are they elders?  In other words, is this a cult like the ones in Utah?  Or is it more like the Amish?  What are the similarities and what are the differences?  

 
May 9, 2006, 12:11 pm CDT

Parents Using Children To Punish Each Other

Quote From: tanda_69

This is nothing less then yet another story of Parental Alienation. That " Father " should be locked up for child abuse/neglect. He was set out to punish is ex-wife at any cost, even the cost of robbing his children of a relationship with their mother.There is no way of telling how messed up those girls are going to be from his acts of hate for his ex-wife.
It sounds to me like they are trying to punish each other using the children.  Michelle even made accusations that Michael was sexually molesting his daughter.  Thats dispicable!  If you look in most contested custody cases you will most times find allegations of  sexual molestation charges against a dad. Dads usually claim that mom is crazy or suicidal.   Its all part of the game.  Parents involved in contested divorce custody situations will sling as much mud as they can at each other in order to win the courts favour.  The lawyers encourage it because they make more money if parents duke it out in court.  None of this is necessary.   The courts should not allow this to go on!  I believe they do as it is profitable for all involved except the families that end up irrepairably damaged by it all.  This madness needs to stop, we need to ask our legislators to reform the family law system to better serve the best interest of children and their families in divorce situations.    WE DESERVE BETTER EQUITABLE TREATMENT FOR DIVORCING FAMILIES IN THE USA!
 
May 9, 2006, 12:17 pm CDT

A similar thing happened to me

In the midst of a custody battle for my two daughers, their father told the court-appointed psychologist a bunch of lies and conveniently left out the fact that he was an abusive, selfish, and manipulative person who only wanted custody to punish me for not wanting to be with him and not subscribe to his religious beliefs.  Nothing I told her about his abusive and obsessive nature made it in the report.  After he got custody, I continued to have my visitation with my girls, waiting for the 2-year time period to expire to petition for change of custody.  During that time, he told my girls consistently and constantly that I did not love them and that I was crazy.  Once I refiled for custody, he exploded and the police took my children into protective custody.  At the hearing the next day, the judge, in the absence of physical evidence, released the girls to him and told him not to go anywhere.  Within 2 hours, his house was empty and he and the girls were gone.  The judge issued a warrant for his arrest and an emergency pickup order for my children.  They were tracked to the west coast, 3000 miles away.  He said he would only come back if I promised not to press charges and that even then, he would only send back one of the children.  After alerting the police in Washington, he was taken into police custody. The judge declined to have him shipped back to face charges upon his promise to return the children.  When he returned to the east coast, I had to go through another ordeal that took over a year with the girls having to be in court-monitored foster care and me having to go through child protective services investigating me and having to take parenting classes and the girls being in therapy to deal with being abducted by their father.  It's been 2 years since then, and my girls will barely speak to their father now.  I didn't want him to go to jail, but at the same time, I was afraid that he would take them again just to punish me.  If you tell a child something enough times, they believe it.  My children are teenagers now and know the truth about what happened and how their father manipulated them to believe his lies and feel sorry for him.  I hope Allene and Mollie's situation can work out as well as it did for my family with them getting what is best for them.
 
May 9, 2006, 12:23 pm CDT

The horrors of a cult

This episode of the Dr. Phil Show has brought back some horrible memories for me. It reminds me of the time when I used to be a part of a cult. Even though they claimed to be just a regular church, they held their services at Ottawa's very lavish Chateau Laurier hotel. The leaders of this so-called church acted as termites in my bloodstream. They just wouldn't leave you alone. Although they claimed that they praised the lord, they took advantage of its worshippers financially. When I wanted out, they just wouldn't take no for an answer. I know some other people that experienced the same thing with them. It wasn't a lot of fun. Eventually, the stress took its toll and I had to see a doctor about it. He told me to put as much distance between myself and the church as I possibly could. I'm afraid that the two missing girls featured on the Dr. Phil Show will be brainwashed and will have trouble integrating themselves back into mainstream society. I hope that these young girls will return to their mother with no strings attached and minimal damage done.  

Sincerely,  

Fred  

 
May 9, 2006, 12:47 pm CDT

Not judging their fatith, just the facts

Quote From: benoliver

 How do you know that!! Just because you don't agree with the faith doesn't mean they don't.  Seems to me that they understand fully what they are saying, they have lived life according to they're mother and with their father and they obviously know the differences.  They choose to live the life with their father and his way of life.  Lets try listening to the children and not judging because we wouldn't live that way.

I did not say I don't agree with their faith or that I wouldn't live that way - I actually have a lot of respect for a simpler  less materialistic way of life. 

  

What I said was that after a whole year of living in basic seclusion with this sect they are just parroting back what they have been told.  You try living in a secluded jungle environment for a whole year with no contact from the outside world and see if it doesn't affect your concept of the real world. 

  

These are kids, not fully matured and very impressionable.  It makes sense that they "got with the program" and complied when thrust into that environment by their father.  It is what they became used to, but that doesn't mean it is truly what they want.   

  

The problem is their father deprived them of the opportunity to learn about what they wanted by removing all of their choices.  If he had been living this lifestyle before he had kids then they would have been born into this way of life, no problem  (assuming he had a wife who practiced this religion with him). But since the family lived a more secular lifestyle until HE decided to make some big changes, it is not fair (not to mention not legal) for him to have abducted these girls and then influenced or coerced them into rejecting the life their mother had in mind for them.     

  

One parent does not have the right to ever deprive the other parent of their role in their child's life.  Shame on this dad.  He said he wanted to protect his kids, but all he did was gaurentee that they will now have emotional hurdles and confusion to deal with that will burden them for years to come.   

  

You say we should try listening to the children, but the problem with that is that until they have a more balanced view of their parents and the world they live in what they say to us doesn't carry much weight.  They are still kids, and they need responsible, unbiased adults to help them sort their feelings out.   Hopefully with Dr. Phil's help they will now get that. 

  

  

  

  

  

 
May 9, 2006, 12:47 pm CDT

Need Help

Quote From: benoliver

 How do you know that!! Just because you don't agree with the faith doesn't mean they don't.  Seems to me that they understand fully what they are saying, they have lived life according to they're mother and with their father and they obviously know the differences.  They choose to live the life with their father and his way of life.  Lets try listening to the children and not judging because we wouldn't live that way.
It doesn't seem anyone is judging anyone.  I think there actions speak loud and clear.  Those girls should be placed in a temporary home where there is lot's of love and truth.  They need to see a special counselor dealing with different cultures and different cults.  I don't think either parent should have them at this point.  They need to be medically examined and treated if necessary.  They need to sort through there feelings and what is the truth or not.  Did my mom really abuse us or is my dad lieing?  Is this the life I really want to live or is this the life my dad wants me to live?  ETC...  I agree to a point that middle school and high school can have some negative issues to deal with but what world or religion don't.  I think that is another excuse for the father. I pray that the state is on the children's side!  I believe that the father should be charged with kidnapping and sent away but that doesn't mean the mom should get custody right away.  That could result in them running away and living a life that there use to.  Just opinion. 
 
May 9, 2006, 12:48 pm CDT

Mennonites are not a Cult

Unfortunately, Dr. Phil and the Dr. Phil Show are obviously uninformed about Hutterites, Mennonites and other orders that came to the Americas to seek shelter from religious prosecution.  They are not cults.  Instead their lifestyles are centuries old based on their religious beliefs. The lifestyle is community and religious based.  None of these groups are polygamist and do not harm their children in any way shape or form. The show seems to have a bias in favour of the mother and the secular world.    

  

The old world orders of Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites and Dukabhours tend to isolate themselves from the mainstream for good reason.  Many of these orders have had a long history of bad experiences with governments and the legal system who have trampled on their religion and their rights and interests.  In North America these groups settled on land no one else wanted.  When the land was made viable and exceeded yield expectations it was often taken away from them by the government and given to "white" farmers.  These orders were told they couldn't farm as a community or if they did their acreage were cut back. Their childern were removed and placed into residential schools where they were not allowed to speak their native languages (predominately Germanic & Russian based languages), dress in their traditional attire or worship God in their own religious orders.  

  

I believe the show is judging and portraying the father in context of the secular world.  

  

I am happy to say that today the courts in Canada would take into consideration the religious context of this father and this family.  They would not impose mainstream religious or lifestyle ideals on this family.  

  

Even if the secular standards are used to detemine the outcome here - The mother was not a fit parent at the time of separation.  She has is still undergoing psychiatric or psychological treatment and counselling.  We were told she stable now - but how stable - only if she takes her medication?  How long has she been stable?    

  

From the bits and pieces that have been exposed to in this show, it is obvious the father has been the primary parent and was so even during the marriage.  IF the "best interest of the child" standard was used in the context of what we have been provided to date - the father should continue to have primary custody of the children.  

  

Right now I am sensing a huge bias in favour of the mother and I believe that is just wrong.    

  

My mom was an unfit parent although she looked good on paper (stable high profile job, nice home, well behaved children).  I took custody of my younger brother when he was 8 and I was 18.  Despite my mother's attempts to destroy me on a personal basis and my extended families plea to return my brother to her - I refused. My mother eventually relinguished legal custody a year later.  If it had gotten into a court battle and a judge had ordered me to return my brother to our mother or our father - I would have gone underground with my brother.  No question in my mind about it and its now twenty-two years later.  Knowing what I knew then and know now removing my brother from my mother and her new husband was the right thing to do.  

  

Looking Back: If my mom had gotten help and a medical panel had said that her personality and parenting issues were now all resolved a year after I had removed my brother from her would I have given my brother back to her?  Not a chance in hailey's world. It just wouldn't have been a healthy decision for my brother.   

  

Although Dr. Phil may not understand this situation, I totally understand why this father has taken the steps he has taken to date.  The father is not some sort of back to the earth dim-witted wingnut as the first show seemed to suggest.  He is a father looking after the emotional, spiritual and mental well-being of his children from a woman in the past who has shown herself unstable and to be an unsafe parent. The children looked to be in good health and spirit when interviewed.  The family's lifestyle may not accord with my own or mainstream America, but thats O.K.; it is certainly not a reason to remove them from their father.  

  

Allison  

 
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