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Topic : 05/10 Finding Allene and Mollie, Part 2

Number of Replies: 912
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Created on : Friday, May 05, 2006, 07:02:03 am
Author : DrPhilBoard1
A tense family drama continues. Dr. Phil sent private investigator Harold Copus thousands of miles through three countries, including the jungles of Belize, to find 15-year-old Mollie and 13-year-old Allene who were abducted by their father one year ago. Now, join the tearful reunion between the girls and their mother, Michelle. Then, Dr. Phil sits down with Michelle and her husband, Michael. Find out why he says, “You could cut the tension with a knife.” What happens when Michael is confronted about the kidnapping? Next, hear from Hutterite religious leader Peter Hoover who was instrumental in bringing Michael and the girls back to America. But was he honest the first time he was on the show? Did he aid and abet Michael in accomplishing the abductions? Then, follow the girls as they go back home. How will they deal with returning to American teenage life? Join the discussion.

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May 10, 2006, 1:32 am CDT

Kind of a weird "homecoming"

This is kind of a weird "homecoming." They are coming "home" to a place that they never lived, and to a parent they haven't gotten along with. Aren't we just setting the stage for a run away situation? This show suggests more questions than it answers. Why all the "father kidnapped" and "abducted" comments when the father hasn't even been tried yet, much less convicted? Not even a fig leaf of an "alleged" is uttered. What does Dr. Phil do if the guy ends up getting acquitted by a jury, and the girls have run away or been harmed by the mom in the meantime? Why remove children from a safe and loving community and the parent who has had them for 6 years (the court's choice to parent) and "reunite" them with a mother with whom they have a history of stress and conflict even during visits? Who has a history of mental illness, violence and suicide? Whom the children have obviously ambivalent feelings about and who got caught putting the children up to stories of abuse in the past? (show 1) "The law" in this case is a default judgement! These are often easily overturned. Hardly a compelling reason in itself. Listen to what "Harold" tells "Michael" will happen in the meeting when they first meet, then see what ends up happening on arrival. What ever happened to "the girls can live at Elmendorf, or wherever?" Didn't they tell Dr. Phil they wanted to live with a plain friend in Indiana or in Elmendorf, and then next thing we know here are pictures of the "homecoming" at Mom's house. A lot of details in the original deal seem to be glossed over here. What is the deal with the Mom shooting dirty looks at the kids when Dr. Phil asks them about living with Mom? That doesn't look very sane, let me tell you. Do you want to go home to that look? What kind of jerk asks kids that in front of their Mom on TV? Well, I guess I'll be waiting a long time for answers on this one. Another sweeps week "mystery."
 
May 10, 2006, 1:48 am CDT

Allene and Mollie

After watching last weeks show and the first part of this weeks show I am pretty much convinced that Michael truly believes that taking the girls away from their mother was the only way he felt he could really protect them. To me he appears to be keenly focused and totally devoted to his daughters. As for the living conditions that everyone seems to be so apalled at, remember that these people live that way by choice, and after hearing from the girls themselves, I believe they are very comfortable with the way they were living, not to mention that they both are very articulate and seem to know what they want from life. Oh, if it were that simple for the rest of us. My thoughts on Michelle are mixed, and I'm not so sure that removing the children from the situation was such a bad idea, and I think using the term abduction may be a little too strong.  I think he did it out of love for his children. 
 
May 10, 2006, 2:14 am CDT

No Parent Has The Right......

Quote From: kstockdale

Neither parent should be undermining the other.  This does not mean Michele has to support Michael's religious ideals but she should not undermine or degrade his beliefs to the children.  

  

I agree......as long as the mother undermines and degrade this belief, she will be able to BLAME the cult for the daughters NOT wanting a relationship with HER  - INSTEAD of herself! 

[Quote]Neither parent should be undermining the other.  This does not mean Michele has to support Michael's religious ideals but she should not undermine or degrade his beliefs to the children.[/Unquote]   

    

[Quote]I agree......as long as the mother undermines and degrade this belief, she will be able to BLAME the cult for the daughters NOT wanting a relationship with HER  - INSTEAD of herself![/Unquote]   

   

Regardless of your view on this matter, the remarks are all moot point given the fact the father actually kidnapped the children, sorry that's just wrong.   

 

   

To just up and vanish with the children from any marraige. In fact, it was the father in this instance who has a warrant out for his arrest. Why did he run? For religeous beliefs? Hog Wash. The religous cult in question here hides behind their beliefs to further support their actions, again...hogwash. Man's law is god's law. Taking children accross not only state lines, but country borders and committing felonious crimes to travel in a country crossing borders where they have no visas is not only illegal, but unacceptable as well. If, as a society we continue to overlook these types of activities, the crimes will only be committed on a grander scale. IMHO the father should be jailed immediately, held without bond as he is a flight risk along with his so called brethren who helped aid and abet this fugitive father no matter what his agenda. Hiding behind religion is just plain wrong and kidnapping is just that, kidnapping. It is up to us as law abiding individuals to be sure to help see to it that if activity such as this be reported to the proper authorities ASAP.   

   

Our laws were written with everyone in mind, no exceptions...End Game.   

   

   

   

   

 
May 10, 2006, 3:03 am CDT

What is the priority here?

Is this show about an abduction or about people who don't have cars?  

   

I live very much like the Mennonites do but without being one. They inspire me no end.  Those kids are lucky to be living in a way which spares them the many kinds of "worthlessness" which society in general imposes on its hoardes and hoardes of consumers.  I hope the girls are able to stay with their father if this is what they want to do. I also hope their mother sees sense and realizes that she will be able to be part of their lives if she appreciates the good in what the father is doing.   

 
May 10, 2006, 3:20 am CDT

Don't forget age 16

Amish and most of the brethren  practice a leaving at age 16. The child is left alone at age 16. THEY, the young adult, must make the choice to join or leave the church and its ways. In our town with its high Amish population we occaisionally have problems with these young Amish adults getting drunk and making a mess: No different than "modern" 16 year olds who sometimes do the same daft things.

I'd say to those against the Amish & Brethren way to stop judging. These people are not evil or any other nasty thing. They are indeed different from you and I, given our lifestyle differences, that in no way means they are anything other than ordinary people.

I once lived in the far back bush of British Columbia, 200 miles from the nearest town. I raised my sons alone there for quite some time (my wife had run off with my at-the-time best friend). There are still many people who live that way with outhouses, no electricty or running water or ... They are just people. Modern does not mean better! Neither does the simple life mean better! Better is a function of the mind of the person!
 
May 10, 2006, 4:43 am CDT

05/10 Finding Allene and Mollie, Part 2

Quote From: purplepain

Who lets kids this age decide what is best for themselves? 
 Just because she is their mother doesn't mean that she automatically knows what is best for the girls.  I don't agree with breaking the law but seems to me that the father was trying take the girls out of an environment in which they were uncomfortable.  They didn't want to go to public school-she tried to force them, he took them out of that situation.  They wanted to wear their brethren clothes, not watch t.v., or secular music. Instead of saying " I don't agree with this, but my daughters feelings and their well-being matters more" she said " You look weird and I can't go out in public with you" and "Here's some normal clothes and jewelry, don't you want to wear this?"

Regardless of whether she agreed with it or not, she could have at least supported their religious beliefs.  They weren't satan worshippers or belonged to some cult that was holding young girls hostage.  They belonged to a religion that has been around for hundreds of years and has a reputation for being peacemakers.  Just because our children are our children doesn't mean they aren't born with their own opinions and beliefs and we need to speak with them and try to support them. This religion was not harming them, they seem very level headed and respectful. 

They weren't brainwashed. They supported their father because he supported them. He saw them uncomfortable in their environment and instead of being like their mother who said "You'll be fine!" he listened to them and took them out of their uncomfortable environment. No wonder they want to live with him.
 
May 10, 2006, 4:46 am CDT

isolation is the key

Quote From: jaider

We need religious police for these brainwashing cults? Please allow me to tell you some things about the brainwashing cult that Michael and his oldest daughter joined. I’m not talking about the Hutterites here. I’m not as familiar with them but I do know they share some similar beliefs and both are part of the Anabaptist heritage. The brethren church they are part of has a long established history. They are Christian peace loving people who would go out of their way to help anyone. They go to work, school, eat, sleep and raise family’s just like everyone else. They believe in their ways just like you believe in yours. They teach their children their ways but do not force or manipulate their children into their church anymore than any other Christian people do. Their desire is that their children will become part of their church family but they strongly believe it must be of their own free will. In fact, I know they sometimes discourage their children from joining if they think the child is to young or immature to make that kind of decision. Some grow up and join other churches and some join no church at all. If you still want to maintain they are a brainwashing cult that is your choice but most people that interact and know these people would disagree. I can say that with a good deal of confidence because I don’t think Social Services or Child Protective Services would entrust children to a brainwashing cult that victimizes children. Do you? In case you didn’t get that, let me ask you the question again. DO YOU THINK SOCIAL SERVICES OR CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES WOULD HAND OVER CHILDREN TO A BRAINWASHING CULT THAT VICTIMIZES CHILDREN? I didn’t think so. Several family’s of this church foster children. Some have also adopted. Sometimes the foster parents even get frustrated because the CPS pressure them into taking on more children. The CPS know that these are trustworthy people who will provide a loving, stable environment for the children, and believe me, the children need it desperately. It is kind of ironic that these people who almost never divorce, never put their children through a custody battle and put great emphases on strong family relationships would be accused of victimizing children. Simply amazing. 

I vowed I wouldn't not get embroiled in the middle of this on the message boards, but here I am nevertheless.  I agree.. Cult is the WRONG word.  People can and should have the right to practise their religion in any way that they want.  Belief is a highly personal thing.  I, being Wiccan, would be and have been labeled as being part of a Satanic Cult no less, so this labeling is really ticking me off here.  The Amish, Hudderites, and Mennonites are part of a religion that is steeped in tradition.  Loaded with history.  That is not to say that Mike might not have used this to his advantage in order to hide his children.  My feeling is that he did.  My feeling is that he is a controlling, manipulative man, and the children were swept along on his own personal agenda.  But to blame, or to attack the Mennonite community (In Ontario, Canada where I live there are many such communities), is totally wrong.  There are bad apples in every group, or shall we say 'avid' believers that will twist the rules of the church to suit their own needs,and Peter Hoover is not lilly white in all this either.  There is much that is written on the Mennonites, etc., just use search engines.  It's grand that these communities are encouraged to take in children because of their system of beliefs.. BUT..in the more traditional communities this would not be allowed by the elders.  There is much more to these peoples lives than Dr. Phil is presenting or can present with his three part show.  I sincerely hope that at the end of the day, the children are where they need to be in order to be loved the way they should be loved. 
 
May 10, 2006, 4:47 am CDT

05/10 Finding Allene and Mollie, Part 2

Quote From: purplepain

Who lets kids this age decide what is best for themselves? 

That was my number one question while watching this show!  When did it become acceptable for children of this age to determine what is best for themselves?  These are young girls here, not 18 -19 -20 year old young adults.  They do not have the brain development neccessary for making such decisions at this stage of their lives. 

  

Curious to see if the doc addresses this issue in this second show. 

 
May 10, 2006, 5:00 am CDT

05/10 Finding Allene and Mollie, Part 2

Quote From: wintrywood

Last time I looked, I believe American's have the freedom to worship anyway they choose and to also inculcate that belief system in their children as long as it is not harming them in any way.  Just because a religion is a bit different from the accepted norms they are labled a cult.  Many of todays accepted religions were once thought of as cults when they first started.  These girls look healthy to me.  I think what is harming them the most and causing most of the problem is the conflict between the parents.  Michael has a right to teach his beliefs to his daughters as does Michele.  Neither parent should be undermining the other.  This does not mean Michele has to support Michael's religious ideals but she should not undermine or degrade his beliefs to the children. 

The problem with that line of thinking is that in this particular situation, the mother cant support the fathers religious beliefs without giving up what she feels is important for the children.  Advanced education, for starters.  She would also have to give up HER personal choices in where and how she wishes to live if she were to support Michaels religious views.  Thats not fair.   Where are her rights, personal religious choices, and freedoms? 

  

America does give the freedom to worship.  However, it does NOT give the freedom to run off and kidnap children.  If religious views allow, and in fact ENCOURAGE(as the one man said on the show with a smile on his face, "Well you will have to do what you need to do")the kidnapping of a mothers two children, you now cross over to unacceptable forms of worship.   

 
May 10, 2006, 5:01 am CDT

Finding Allene and Mollie, Part 2

i nagree no one has the right to take there kids away even if the father has full custady
 
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