Message Boards

Topic : 03/07 When Too Much is ... Too Much

Number of Replies: 423
New Messages This Week: 0
Last Reply On:
Created on : Friday, November 10, 2006, 09:20:25 am
Author : DrPhilBoard1
(Original Air Date: 11/15/06) Imagine discovering that your next-door neighbor owns over 200 cats. Ray and Dennis never thought their neighbor, Kristy, would let her pet collection get that big. Once friends, the three are now in a nasty and vindictive war because of the felines. Ray and Dennis say Kristy's property is one big, disgusting litter box, and they want Kristy to get rid of her cats. Kristy says she'll never part with her "cat sanctuary." Are Ray and Dennis playing dirty in order to run Kristy out of town? When is it too much, and where do you draw the line in the litter box? Then, Mike says his wife, Lori, keeps everything from used envelopes to empty food jars and medicine bottles, because she "might need it" in the future. He is ready to take desperate measures to put a stop to this. Lori says the thought of throwing her stuff out is her worst nightmare. Is Mike guilty of making nasty bribes to get his wife to change? What's really behind Lori's habit for hoarding? Tell us what you think!

Find out what happened on the show.

More March 2007 Show Boards.

As of January, 2009, this message board will become "Read Only" and will be closed to further posting. Please join the NEW Dr. Phil Community to continue your discussions, personalize your message board experience, start a blog and meet new friends.

User Mood
Happy

Message Emote
surprised
November 14, 2006, 1:56 pm PST

wow never thought this could happen from collecting too much stuff<>

This year, at least one person was trapped under an avalanche of their own clutter. Now, research suggests that people like this—compulsive hoarders—have distinct brain abnormalities. This ScienCentral News video has more.The Chaos of Clutter

The door to apartment 2F looked like any other. But what lay inside was a shocking sight: Mounds of garbage and trash so tall and so plentiful that there was almost no way to open the front door
"There was a huge table there piled high with stuff and there was a tiny little path. In some places you had to sneak by it sideways," says Ron Alford, who runs Disaster Masters, Incorporated, a company dedicated to helping extreme pack rats clean house. "Stuff was just stacked up and the cockroaches were walking up behind it and making a mess on the wall."

After an 85-year-old man broke his leg tripping over the clutter, his family called Alford, who with a crew of six men and women waded through an apartment packed full of old roller skates, radio parts and airplane model material.

Nearly three days later, the carpets and floors began to see daylight. Alford has a special word he coined to describe such hoarding behavior: disposophobia. "When you trip and fall on your own stuff, when you're ashamed or afraid to have your friends, relatives or neighbors come into your house and sit down, that's how we draw the line," he says. "Your life has become abysmal because the stuff is overruling your life."

Sanjaya Saxena, a UCLA psychiatrist who's studied compulsive hoarders for nearly six years, wouldn't exactly describe their condition as a phobia: "We're studying people who have hoarding problems that are really due to anxiety and obsessions and compulsions…folks who are unable to throw away even garbage from their kitchens or junk mail or anything so stuff is piled up, several feet up."

As reported in Discover Magazine, Saxena took a scientific approach to understanding the minds of such hoarders. He devised a study comparing the brain scans of those with no disorders, those with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) (characterized by a compulsion to act on anxieties) and those with Obsessive-Compulsive Hoarding. He and his team were able to glean some interesting findings. "In the brain of compulsive hoarders was a unique, distinct pattern. They did not have the typical areas of elevated activity we saw in all the other OCD patients, instead they actually had low activity in certain parts of the brain that were involved in visual-spatial orientation, and in other parts of the brain involved in tension, motivation and decision-making."

 
Those free of hoarding behavior have an area in the brain called the cingulate gyrus—a structure that runs front to back, down the center of the brain—that fires up areas involved in decision-making and motivation. But in the brains of compulsive hoarders the cingulate gyrus registered low activity. "What we think is going on," says Saxena, "is that low activity along the midline in these areas of the brain seem to be responsible for not only the overt hoarding and saving and acquiring behaviors, but probably also are responsible for some of these other features that we see in compulsive hoarders—the disorganization, the trouble with attention, the motivation, the difficulty with making decisions."

Before, medications used to treat OCD had no effect on hoarders, whose disorder doctors believed belonged to a subset of OCD. Knowing that their brains differ from the brains of patients with OCD—and how—means that doctors might now be able to jump-start a process in the brain of patients with compulsive hoarding, says Saxena: "We're now in the process of trying out new medication…because we know that in other disorders they actually effect those brain areas that were abnormal in the patients with compulsive hoarding."


No case of compulsive hoarding is more famous than that of the Collyer brothers, Langley and Homer, once residents of a fashionable Harlem neighborhood. One sickly and blind, both reclusive and distrustful, their brownstone was rigged with booby traps, trip wires and ropes meant to bring some of the home's 136 tons of rubbish toppling down on would be robbers. On March 21, 1947, police received a tip that there was a dead man in the brownstone. Officers combed the lugubrious inside but it took several hours of maneuvering through piles of garbage to find Homer Collyer, dead of starvation, swathed in a checked robe. Langley remained missing. Not until eighteen days later did a city worker in the house lift a box. Beneath it peaked a foot— nibbled on by rats— that belonged to the long dead Langley. He had unwittingly set off his own booby trap, burying himself under a crush of the things he so loved to collect.

From what Alford says he's seen,chemical approaches that treat hoarders like the Collyers are often ineffective. He says that after trying medication some of his clients "look at all the stuff. They get more depressed than when they already left because they get this little bump of enthusiasm or hope and then they hit reality and they just sort of spiral down." Instead, he believes that their problems are better solved with behavior-based therapy.

But that comes with its own difficulties. Because of the social stigma attached to the disorder, compulsive hoarders are notoriously unwilling to reveal their problem, Saxena says. Still, he stresses that there's hope in the psychiatric community that compulsive hoarding can be successfully treated. Getting professional medical attention, he believes, is the best option that hoarders have: "That's the only thing that is going to control the behavior in the long run."

Without a structured approach to treating compulsive hoarding, those who suffer from it will continue to be referred to fire departments or health departments, where they're generally given ultimatums to clear out their homes or face eviction. "While that might solve a short-term health hazard or fire hazard, it's not going to stop the behavior," Saxena warns. "They'll come back a year later and these folks have filled up their house again."

And while that will keep Alford in business, it will also keep compulsive hoarders amongst piles of debris that could one day prove deadly. This research was published in the June 2004 issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry and was funded by the National Institute of Mental Health.

 
User Mood
Good

Message Emote
blank
November 14, 2006, 2:26 pm PST

11/15 When Too Much is ... Too Much

 

 

    I own two cats, my mother owns four and trust me our cats have their own unique personalities, they are loving but they are also a lot of work and an expense.  If you do not have the means to house 200 cats that means adequate cages, food, liter boxes, access to vetinerary staff and care then you have no business keeping 200 cats! I think that this woman has issues that go way past owning 200 cats.  This woman has emotional and psychological issues that needed to be addressed by a professional.  No person in their right mind would keep that many animals in one home.  This is not only overwhelming but also a health hazard to the people who live in the home and the rest of the community.   She accused some of the people in the neighborhood of killing some of the cats with anti-freeze.  I wouldn't put such a cruel act past anyone especially people who dont' like animals especially cats.  If they did do that to the animals, they also should face legal consequences. 

 

The people in the neighborhood should have contacted the department of health and animal control.  There is nothing wrong with loving animals but when you let a situation get this far, you're are also an enabler of animal cruelty.  This woman needs to get intensive pschotherapy to deal with the issues she has, because most of the time there are issues deep inside that they have to address and fix.

 

We found a stray cat in our neighborhood and we would keep it in the basement and feed it, etc. until the owner told us it had to go.  We went to a petco who had a non-profit organization who took stray cats, etc.  Well what do you know a few weeks later,  my mom saw the same woman in the news being arrested for animal cruelty and having tons and tons of cats, dead ones, etc. in her house.  She was a crackpot alright.  Who knows what happen to the cat.  Sometimes you never know who you're dealing with.  This woman appeared normal but wasn't.

 

 
User Mood
Good

Message Emote
sad
November 14, 2006, 2:57 pm PST

a serious intervention needs to be done...

 

   I happen to own two cats, my mother owns 4.  We love our animals and care for them but they are a big responsibility and an expense.  You have to provide them a clean space for them to eat, sleep, and clean out their litter box often and of course make sure that they have their yearly shots to stay healthy.  I cannot see how this woman can do that with 200 cats.  This woman has psychological and emotional issues that need to be addressed by a professional.  It's good to love animals, but when you truly love animals you know the difference from being able to provide a healthy home for them to this extreme.   There is no way any person who is in their right state of mind would have 200 cats living in their home and roaming about the neighborhood.  This is a health hazard to her and her husband,  the cats themselves and the other pets.  I can guarantee some of these cats are strays not fixed and may have other problems and those can infect or hurt the othe pets in the are.

 

Her neighbors may be annoyed with having to deal with this problem but they need to take a different approach.  If they did poison those animals with anti-freeze, they should be charged with animal cruelty. There are many people who don't like animals cats especially and they will do things like that to get back at the person.  I would call the department of health and animal control.  Those animals deserve to be in an environment where they can get the care they need, a clean environment where they can play, eat, sleep, and have access to medical care. 

 

If you don't have the financial means or location to have 200 cats.  This includes a clean location, cages, litterboxes, food, staff to care for them, and a vet.  You don't have any business having 200 cats or any amount 200 suffering because they are not getting the proper care.

 

I really hope that this woman gets the help that she needs so that she can live a normal life. 

 

 
User Mood
Peaceful

Message Emote
blank
November 14, 2006, 2:58 pm PST

Caring people protect those who laws don't

I don't even know if I can watch this show.  This week I wrote letters to my representative because there is legislation in the House to classify animal activists as terrorists.  This is what I wrote:

I ask that you reject Bill S.3880, the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, which hopes to punish those who are trying to close the gap for humane treatment of animals which the conspicuous lack of laws protecting animals has made necessary.  This bill is unconstitutional under Bill of Rights Article 1, Section 1, freedom of speech and assembly.  I am not suggesting that present laws should not be enforced if any group or individual breaks the law, but there are many rescuers and animal protectors who are doing the job of taking care of our feral animal population, a job which our various level of governments are unwilling to do.  There is no priority placed on seeing that animals are treated well and cared for by government at any level, even though there is a lot which could be done through education, mandatory neutering, breeding lotteries, etc.  to control the feral population if there was legislation to support it.  Instead, it has been left to empathetic, caring everyday people to care for these animals and to educate others to do the same.  To think that somewhere there is an elected official who would like to put these most ethical of all citizens in jail for trying to represent an enormous group of victims who cannot speak for themselves is an atrocity. 

          There is overwhelming support from the private sector supporting animal concerns.  We are a state who not only loves but reveres our animals.  Please use existing laws to keep extremists in check and do not criminalize ethical goodhearted proactive people for helping animals.  

 

 

 Having said that and without having seen the show, I know there are people who believe they are helping the feral population but who don't neuter and allow them to breed, which helps no one.  I don't know if that is the case with this woman until I see the show.  Nonetheless, I will just say that I feel there need to be a lot of laws beneficial to animals in place instead of the plethora of restrictions placed on animals and people trying to care for them that get slid in through the city council when no one is looking.  For example, our city council made it a crime to put up posters for lost animals, but made no such laws governing putting up election campaign signs.  The city limits a household to three pets.  When thousands of unwanted domestic animals are put down every day and no legislation is considered to lessen the problem -- such as licensing breeders, shutting down puppy mills and mandating breeding lotteries, mandating spay/neuter, and offering tax breaks for pet owners, enforcing animal cruelty laws, toughening the laws, and making rescue/adoption clubs a part of the publc school system -- I don't see how that is even humane, much less intelligent.  There are no limits on how many children a person can have in a household, and noisy children are even more distracting to neighbors than roaming animals. 

 

I think people who improve the lives of otherwise feral animals should be accommodated and rewarded, not bullied and ostracized, regardless of what the appallingly inadequate laws are. 

 

 
User Mood
Worried

Message Emote
worried
November 14, 2006, 4:04 pm PST

too much is true

Oh my,

People just dont know when to say enough.  I have 32 cats and 7 dogs. I dont know either.  But theres a difference in me and this person. There are cat collectors and there are trash collectors and then theres  sensible and common sense.

All 32 cats are spayed, all are up to date on vacinnes, all have been rescued from various places death row at the local pound. The humane society and then there are those who get dropped off.  But I have the common sense to get them fixed, and keep up witht he litter boxes, and it is not easy, It is very very costly. I would love to take the money I spend a month on vet care and food and litter and spend it on something else but I dont I treat these animals like my children. Whom I have 3. Last trip to the pound was suposed to be 1 dog ended up being 3. I work part time at a large chain resturant, mu husband is an HVAC tech. We live in a modest  home with a very modest income.  My neighbors complain as well, but they dont complain when the cats are ridding the yards of rats and moles, and the sort. I live around people who drive cars worth lots less then mine but they complain.  I would move if I could right now I cant. But rest asured there are people out there who do care, and who really do take care. It is very costly and theres nobody that wants to help nobody hands me anything. But I make sure that everyone has and is taken care of. I rescued a mother cat early this summer who had a litter, by the time I got to her she was already pregnant again. So having the second litter with me, I took her to the vet at exactly 8 weeks and it is a good thing I did, she had a 8 week old mummified fetus still inside her rotting, and she was lucky to be alive. There were no physical signs, th ekittens she did have had a hard time and now it is understood why. But if she would have been left with her previous owner who couldnt remember to feed them and who had never given her vet care she would be dead. This cat is about 8 years old, do you know how many kittens shes likely had? How many they in turn have produced. I heard about her and the owner didnt hesitate to hand her over. So she gave me 9 kids plus herself.  But I love them all, I take care of them all, and I dont need anyone to hold my hand and tell me to change the litter boxes and to take them to the vet. 32 is alot of cats in a residential area, 7 dogs in my backyard is alot of purina dog chow but i do it.  this woman needs to get a clue shes not helping anything, not herself nor the animals. She is a collector, of live animals and collectors should be left to non living non breathing things.  I feel for the animals especually if theres no regular vet check ups and I can only imagine what the house would smeel like. I go a long ways to make sure the yard doesnt get over run and the house doesnt stink. Her nfighbors do have a legit complaint. But theres more then this person out there that is doing this.

  

 
User Mood
Cheerful

Message Emote
blank
November 14, 2006, 5:14 pm PST

11/15 When Too Much is ... Too Much

Quote From: jaak58

Oh my,

People just dont know when to say enough.  I have 32 cats and 7 dogs. I dont know either.  But theres a difference in me and this person. There are cat collectors and there are trash collectors and then theres  sensible and common sense.

All 32 cats are spayed, all are up to date on vacinnes, all have been rescued from various places death row at the local pound. The humane society and then there are those who get dropped off.  But I have the common sense to get them fixed, and keep up witht he litter boxes, and it is not easy, It is very very costly. I would love to take the money I spend a month on vet care and food and litter and spend it on something else but I dont I treat these animals like my children. Whom I have 3. Last trip to the pound was suposed to be 1 dog ended up being 3. I work part time at a large chain resturant, mu husband is an HVAC tech. We live in a modest  home with a very modest income.  My neighbors complain as well, but they dont complain when the cats are ridding the yards of rats and moles, and the sort. I live around people who drive cars worth lots less then mine but they complain.  I would move if I could right now I cant. But rest asured there are people out there who do care, and who really do take care. It is very costly and theres nobody that wants to help nobody hands me anything. But I make sure that everyone has and is taken care of. I rescued a mother cat early this summer who had a litter, by the time I got to her she was already pregnant again. So having the second litter with me, I took her to the vet at exactly 8 weeks and it is a good thing I did, she had a 8 week old mummified fetus still inside her rotting, and she was lucky to be alive. There were no physical signs, th ekittens she did have had a hard time and now it is understood why. But if she would have been left with her previous owner who couldnt remember to feed them and who had never given her vet care she would be dead. This cat is about 8 years old, do you know how many kittens shes likely had? How many they in turn have produced. I heard about her and the owner didnt hesitate to hand her over. So she gave me 9 kids plus herself.  But I love them all, I take care of them all, and I dont need anyone to hold my hand and tell me to change the litter boxes and to take them to the vet. 32 is alot of cats in a residential area, 7 dogs in my backyard is alot of purina dog chow but i do it.  this woman needs to get a clue shes not helping anything, not herself nor the animals. She is a collector, of live animals and collectors should be left to non living non breathing things.  I feel for the animals especually if theres no regular vet check ups and I can only imagine what the house would smeel like. I go a long ways to make sure the yard doesnt get over run and the house doesnt stink. Her nfighbors do have a legit complaint. But theres more then this person out there that is doing this.

  

I would complain if I was your neighbor too. I'm sorry but 39 animals in a residential area is just too much. 
 
User Mood
Happy

Message Emote
upset
November 14, 2006, 6:30 pm PST

Here Kitty Kitty!!

I have nothing against cats. I use to have one for 16 years until it died last year, but this many cats in a house is beyond NOT healthy for the cats or the people inside. They carry many diseases in their literbox. There is no way that a person can accurately keep the place clean. I'm sure she doesn't take all these cats to the vet regularly. Its not fair to the cats. As far as the smell.......you have to keep the boxes extremely clean. That to me seems impossible because I'm sure they don't all go to the bathroom at the same time. Its probably a 24 hour a day bathroom. Ugh! The Humane Society needs to come into her home a make some decisions.  I hope the neighbors will persue this matter with the proper authorities.
 
User Mood
Excited

Message Emote
sad
November 14, 2006, 9:12 pm PST

Has anyone stop to think that there could be religious reasons for keeping 250 cats in the home?

I had a grandma who owned 100 cats at any given time in her home. She was a Wiccan and her goddess was Bast, the Egyptian cat goddess. All her cats were treated as human beings because they were seen as the goddess' herself. The animals were fed, watered, and given medical care. Most had come from abusive homes (like her white cat, "Blue Eyes") and others were feral. All of the felines were unusually calm around her, but the animals became wild with anyone my grandma didn't like (like my mom's extended family).

 

When my family visited for Thanksgiving in 1991, I actually witness her giving the cats a Thanksgiving offering, which was a full sized, cooked turkey. Once the cats were satisfied, we were allowed to eat. Sadly, this disgusted my mom, who had been raised Catholic and later became a Fundementalist Christian. Because of my mom, my family was forced to celebrate Thanksgiving at my Uncle Leo's, where we had tamales instead of turkey.

 

Anyways, it's not much difference from people in India worshipping the cow.

 

On another note, it is a fact that some pagans and Wiccans still hide their religion for fear of discrimination, so when I see a situation like this, I can't help but wonder if this person is a neo-pagan or Wiccan.

 

 

 
User Mood
Stressed

Message Emote
upset
November 14, 2006, 9:16 pm PST

I am a material hoarder too

I seen that Oprah show too, about the animals, in the house & her mess. She dressed neatly. I agree this lady has too many cats. I will be tuning in to see what the good Dr. has to say.  I have to agree that hoarding is a problem. I hoard material things. Especially newspapers & magazines. I have boxed up things 2 or 3 times now, to either sell or take to the thrift store. I still feel like I have "too much stuff." At times, my home overwhelms me & I sit & cry. My home is clean, its not dirty. I wasn't raised that way & will not be dirty.  Its just cluttered. Right now, we are a family of 5 (hubby, myself, & 3 kids), living in a 3 bedroom single wide trailer. The baby, who is a year old, sleeps in a playpen. Not, because of the clutter. But because this trailer is a 1984 model & the rooms are small. I have learned getting rid of stuff is emotional & exhausting. But, it also is a work in progess. The hoarders have to be willing to help themselves. My motto is "Less is More" & I am trying to live that day by day. 

 

Message Emote
angry
November 15, 2006, 12:43 am PST

Simply Selfish and Inconsiderate

 First, I have always had pets and I used to love cats. I had a cat named Pepper growing up and she was a wonderful pet whom I still miss decades later.

Long story as short as I can:  My spouse works for the United States government. We bought a beautiful home in Miami, but after 5 years we were posted overseas. A nationally respected company rented out our home to a family that we were able to meet once before leaving the US. They paid first and last months rent and then broke our spa heater within a month and insisted we replace it, carelessly repainted our walls, destroyed our hurricane shutters, etc.... AND moved in 21 cats.

Of course, they never paid another dime for rent or for any other costs they incurred while destroying my home.  The "man" said he lost his job and was having financial trouble as if that made it ok that I had to continue to pay the 2500 mortgage without him rent money or moving out!!  It took me almost 9 months to actually get them out of the house with the help of lawyers and police.  In the end, they fled in the middle of the night (with their pre-teen daughter in tow) stealing property left in the house that they decided they liked - built in shelving, speakers, and fixtures...whatever they wanted. The cop who showed up the following day refused to even walk into the house because of the smell. The one person who did walk in to check on things made it approx 10 feet into the house and vomited.  Remember, this is my HOME.

I repeatedly wrote to and called Animal Control and the Miami-Dade Health Board - NOTHING. I repeatedly wrote to and called the county, the mayor, the governor, my Congresswoman, and my Senator and heard NOTHING. I contacted the District and State's Attorney's office and got blown off by both. The State's division for victim rights told me we weren't victims.

These people used my home for a litter box with cat feces and urine up the walls, on the blinds, in the refrigerator, sinks, everywhere.  In the end, we lost everything. We used ALL our savings trying to "fix" the house so we could sell it but we could never get rid of the smell so - no sale. After several years, we were unable to continue to pay the mortgage on this house we did not live in and could not sell or rent even after sinking tens of thousands of dollars back into it trying to save what I still consider my home.  In the end, I not only lost my home, but friends too as they were tired of the smell and scared their own pets were catching diseases from the "renters" cats. Our house was auctioned off without our knowledge.

We sued the "renters" and we won over 20,000, which doesn't even come close to what they cost us. However, in the state of Florida, they don't have to pay a dime. It just goes on their credit report that they don't care about anyway. We, on the other hand, were forced to declare bankruptcy after years of trying to pay off debt that was not ours and we lived like paupers trying to do it. 

Not only did we have to start over financially, while in our 40's with 4 kids - two in college, we had to do it starting in serious debt on a government salary. They are/were free to lie on their next rental application and do it repeatedly to unsuspecting decent people. I've even found a website these particular people built for their cats! They occupy a beautiful home - also on their website - and their kids went to private schools.

I've contacted them repeatedly (even being polite at times) and they could not care less. They feel no remorse and I agree with other posters who say people like this have serious emotional problems and should be required to get help.  I can't even imagine what damage these  "parents" inflicted on their own kids living like they do.

Years later, my family is still paying the price - emotionally and financially. People like this are a menace and there should be severe consequences to keeping more pets than your area is zoned for. This is NOT a victimless crime. The ruse they use of trying to "help" the animals is simply selfish.


 
First | Prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | Next | Last