Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

And let's be real. Why do you think public schools are dumbing down the standards?

I feel for the quality teachers, but fewer and fewer exist.  Today's younger teachers came out of a failing system and they tow the educational establishment line.  They are as much at fault as the parents you describe.  I agree there are many bad parents, and they cause problems at the school.  They too are parents that came from a failing system.  Today's society is selfish and arrogant and it stems from the "self esteem"movement that is poisoning public education.  The dumbing down has been done so that failing students can do better and thus feel better about themselves.  The public at large has fallen for it too.

Don't homeschooling parents primarily want to avoid some of the negative aspects of traditional school? What are those negative aspects? Bullying? Peer Pressure? Being in a classroom full of unmotivated students who force the slowdown of the curriculum and distract the learning process because of their behaviors? Who is responsible for these problems?

My reason for homeschooling  is academic and religous.  Bullying and peer pressure can happen, and does happen at church youth groups, parks etc.  It can't be avoided in most cases.  My ideas to "fix" the public schools are "too radical" for the socialist people who make up the current educational establishment.  Yes, I am generalizing, but let's face it- the NEA has zero interest in children.  They are nothing more than a labor union for the teachers, teachers who don't want to be accountable.  The NEA is outraged at every mention of making teachers accountable. 

If you are a good homeschooling parent, shouldn't you be concerned with the notion that just anybody can do it?

WHO will decide who is qualified?  What will the definition of  "qualified" be?  I never took Algebra in the public High School I attended.  I don't know Algebra to this day.  However, my 15 year old son is taking Algebra 2 and has an A- currently.  He is homeschooled.  Am I qualified to homeschool my child?  Obviously I found a way for him to learm Algebra.  I don't want anyone, especially "educated educators" deciding what parent is or isn't qualified.  Especially when most public school officials are hostile to homeschoolers.

The point of public education is that democracy will only survive if the populous is educated. That is the intent behind public education. It is more for the benefit of society than the individual. Individual benefits, though they certainly exist, are secondary.

The intent behind public education is much more sinister.  It is to get everyone to think a certain way.  Today's public school system leans heavily towards socialist ideals.  For instance, when I was in school, we had our own school supplies.  We got excited about the first day, had all our new stuff with our name on it and off we went.  Today, all the supplies go into a "common use" area and they are shared. Why is that you think?  To teach kids to share? No.  I will leave it at that and those of you who are really interested can research it.

I think unschooling makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, as it goes against what conventional wisdom tells us. 

You seem to be starting with the assumption that everyone is going to be "uncomfortable"  with your educational methods, and that is making you hostile and defensive. I am not uncomfortable with homeschooling per se, and I don't know enough about "unschooling" to BE uncomfortable with it. Don't make such broad assumptions.

Let's start again - I asked you if there you used anything besides your own observations to assess if your children were adequately learning. I guessing the answer is "no." Correct me if I am wrong.

So my second question is - and it is not an attack, merely information seeking - what is it that you want your child to know and be able to do once he/she is no longer under your care. Is there a goal? Do you foresee how he/she will be able to support him/herself financially or how he/she will manage in a world where there very well may be deadlines and unpleasant expectations?

I think that's a little extreme.

My children have always been educated in the public school system, and my oldest, who is in his 2nd year of college, continues in the public university system.

At the beginning of the year, teachers request that parents donate to the class, kleenex, papertowels, baby wipes, community markers, crayons, paper...

But when I sent my kids to school with their own personal supplies...it stayed just that...their own personal supplies.

Thank goodness too, because by the time they hit highschool...they needed a $100 dollar graphing calculator for advanced math.  This item never became community property.

Marie

Some children thrive in public schools, others do not.  Some children thrive in homeschool, some do not.  There are so many factors to consider because each child has different needs that really need to be evaluated before making this important decision about their lives. 

I think our public schools are overburdened right now, there are too many demands on teachers to have all these kids passing all these standardized tests to make sure they are learning something.  I think our kids are getting good at taking and studying for tests, but real life is not about taking tests.  Real life is about doing and learning as you go, that's what school used to be like a hundred years ago when I was in school.

There are so many alternatives out there for our children, who is to say what is the best or worst.  It really depends on the need of that particular child.  My own child thrived in a public school, she loved to learn, made friends and enjoyed her teachers.  No, not every thing was always perfect, not perfect teachers, administrators, principals, students, curriculum.  But as with any situation you can take what your child needs and expand on that, on your own.  Schools are not the all in all, it takes time and effort on the parents part to help educate his/her child.

Let's not bash one way or another as being wrong.  The real solution is to have the choice to send our children where we think they need to be, the solution is to have many choices to choose from when it comes to education.

For example, in our high schools right now there are students who will never go to college, have no interest in college and do not have the grades for college. But they are interested in auto mechanics, plumbing, carpentry, etc, whatever the trade.  How about having an alternate high school for students that want to learn a trade.  Let's come up with more solutions on how to better educate our youngsters, rather than pointing fingers at all the flaws that exist.  Because no matter how great something is, there will always be flaws to it. 

Many of our high school students are just bored with the subjects they are learning because they know they will never use them in real life.  How about preparing these students to live in real life and how to handle real life, how about a school for that.  I know it sounds crazy, but my point is that we as a people need to desire to have our tax dollars come up with creative ways to teach our children, since after all we are all paying into this system.

Both of my grandparents attended school only to the 8th grade and both of them did well in their lives, raised a family, owned several succesful businesses and lived long happy lives.  Education is not the all in all for everyone.

Look to the needs of each child and then make a decision, that is the solution.

I am NOT an unschooler, but let me offer this. My 11yo son does 7th grade curriculum and has been teaching himself physics on the side through library books and Netflix documentaries. He was talking to a family member (with a BA in Physics) about string theory. The family member later told me that my son understands more about Physics than most of his coworkers (in the aviation industry). So my son is unschooling himself in Physics, with better results than a university. Better, he is learning how to teach himself, an important life skill. Clearly he loves learning, or he wouldn't spend his free time pursuing advanced studies.

If he spent all day in a school, this sort of learning would be impossible. We've done it before--the child finished his work in 5 minutes and was expected to sit perfectly still and silent for the other 55. Multiply that by six and you had his average school day, unfortunately the average school day for any gifted child. Then he came home emotionally exhausted with no interest in learning whatsoever. He was an education success story because he scored in the 80th percentiles and higher. This year I expect he will score above the 95th, as he is flying through work a grade or more above his level and getting A+'s on tests. The schools were holding him back.

Today's society is selfish and arrogant and it stems from the "self esteem"movement that is poisoning public education.  The dumbing down has been done so that failing students can do better and thus feel better about themselves.  The public at large has fallen for it too.

Most teachers will agree that the whole self-esteem movement is ineffective and has gone way too far. But as with almost any educational program, you can forever argue the chicken and egg. Nobody woke up one day and said "I know, let's try to TEACH self-esteem." The program, faulty as it is, stemmed from a need...a realization that the students were lacking motivation and interest in learning.

I think many such programs are ineffective. I hate the whole "character education." I believe PARENTS are responsible for their children's character. Unfortunately, we cannot force parents to be good examples or to even care about their children's development. Sadly, for some kids, school is the safest, most stable environment they know. Schools are not "taking over" social issues by choice - it is a result of trying to fix a complex problem.

As far as "who is qualified?" I don't know an absolute answer. Bureaucracy is probably NOT the answer, but I question parent unwilling to let their kids participate in standardized tests. I think for homeschool parents, joining homeschooling organizations is the best bet. If I were to homeschool my kids, they would be able to read Shakespeare but they would know ZIPPO about science. Nobody expects a parent to be able to teach everything. Don't tell me you don't see any parents who make you think "NO WAY should THAT parent homeschool?"

Especially when most public school officials are hostile to homeschoolers. I got to tell you, you seem pretty hostile not only to school officials, but also to ANYONE who dares question homeschooling. Why the great defense? If there some active campaign to outlaw homeschooling?

In our state, at least, our kids have to take standardized tests every two years. They have to meet a certain percentile benchmark in order to continue homeschooling. My son tested this year and so I have those "official" results that say he is doing well for his age and "grade level". That might be meaningful information to the school district or to someone studying unschooling vs. public schooling or something like that.

To me, these results don't really mean much because I get to see my kids learning every day. And more than just learning, I get to see the ways that they work, play, the responsibilities that they take on, their enthusiasm and energy for projects they start, and how they interact with other people of all ages. They have minds that crave learning and challenges, and they are well-versed in seeking out the resources they need for whatever their interests are.

Both of my kids have already found ways to make their own money. Both of them started earning their own money at age five. My son ran plant sales during the summer he turned five and cleared over $70 from plants he propagated from starts in our garden. My daughter started playing the violin in public at age five and this year has cleared almost $200 (she's saving for her own pony, of course!). Needless to say, I am not worried about "gainful employment" for kids who are so industrious, hard-working, enthusiastic, and have such an entrepeneurial spirit!

Success in life is so much more than a test score, so much more than a grade. My husband was a high-school dropout with no university degree. Now he is an extremely successful businessman. He is successful because he is hardworking and honest, because he has great interpersonal skills, because he knows how to work with people and work for people, and because he has great ideas and the enthusiasm to follow through on them. He didn't learn these skills in school, he learned them in life. I have every confidence that he and I are passing on similar skills and values to our children, and that they will be successful in whatever they put their minds and hearts to. No matter what the "objective" state tests say.

Most educators are not in love with standardized tests. That is more of the love child of politicians who want to quantify education and prove to voters that they are "fixing" problems. However, I do think standardized tests can be a useful indicator. And I would be a little concerned if a homeschooling parent was unwilling to let his/her child be tested.

I agree that school itself can only offer a portion of what a child needs to be successful. I think the biggest problem with public education today is that is too ambitious in terms of trying to do things that are really the parents' responsibilities. However they educated, children need experiences and opportunities that simply cannot come from a structured school setting. I wholeheartedly agree that success in life is so much more than a grade, I'm just not willing to throw away all educational benchmarks.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.