Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

I still can't help but wonder what would happen if at age 18 your child decided he wanted to go to college. Let say he wanted to go to medical school. If he doesn't decide that until 18, are you at all concerned that he would not have the math and science skills necessary to pass the admittance  tests. Kids change their minds all the time as to what they want. Do you provide ANY direction while they are young and don't have a full sense of what their talents and desires might be later in life?

Did you read the original post? I asked, in very simple terms, if there was any other form of assessment other than anecdotal? I made it VERY CLEAR that I didn't know enough about unschooling to be for it or against it. What I received in reply was an immediate statement that a lot of people are uncomfortable with unschooling and a huge defense against assessment. I think the implication was pretty clear.

 

Unschooling is a relatively new concept. It is natural for people to ASK QUESTIONS. I don't think it is productive to jump on the defensive. Another poster here has been able to give me clear, straightforward answers. You have given me a clear answer that your children are assessed annually. I don't think it is too much to ask.

 

May I probe further? You stated that there are a lot of ways your children are assessed. What are they? I agree standardized tests are not the be all and end all. Do you have certain goals or concepts that you try to nudge your children towards? How do you decide which experiences to provide to best facilitate learning?

could some one please tell me [ i never heard that term before ] hahaha  time has ran off with out me i guess, i know what public -private- home schooling is but  un schooling is a new one on me  hahaha, i feel like an idiot even asking  hahaha but i am really wondering about this one folks<>.

Um, as far as I can tell, the reason so many schools have shared supplies is because there are so many kids who cannot afford to buy their own, and it's a way of making sure everyone has something to use.  Kids don't deserve to be embarrassed for being poor, and it keeps them from stealing other kids' supplies (which happened to me all the time when I was in school and we bought our own).  Personally, I think schools are money-strapped enough and parents should buy at least SOME of their own supplies, but I don't want kids to not have anything to use.

 

I think calling this "Socialist" is a pretty big stretch.  They're just kids.  Besides, it seems like everyone these days is always complaining about how spoiled and selfish are today's children--Heaven forbid they should have to share some crayons!

 

I'm not saying public schools are perfect--been there, done that, have no illusions--but you try teaching 35 kids at once and see if you don't have to a) standardize things and b) teach them to share so they aren't fighting all the time.

I am sorry I read your post wrong and I also do not know how many kids go back to public school either. But, I am sure the numbers are somewhere.

I start teaching school at 8:30 AM...I have 30 minutes so, I will be fast.

Thank you for your support. I am also glad I have support of my genetics doctor and others. My doctor sees my child once a year or so and has educated me on how to teach my child that would best benefit her. This is the same stuff she and other advocates told the schools; who refused to listen. It's hard but, we are sticking by it.

Again, thanks for the support; home schoolers...with or without specials needs could all use it.

On that note, I am going to watch Dr. Phil Friday to see what he says as I too do not understand unschooling to the fullest. I am sure the "tease" is only the half od it and Dr. Phil will not put down home schooling as a whole; I would hope anyway.

There have been a lot of questions regarding  an "unschoolers" ability to go on to higher-status jobs once they are of age. "How can he become a lawyer/doctor/broker if he never went to school"?

The answer is simple. If they want to do those things they go to the institute of higher learning that does that sort of training once they are ready. High School students DO NOT become doctors...med school grads do. From the universities and colleges I have spoken to a high school diploma is NOT required. It is simply one of the paths, albeit the most common, people choose to get into the university/college of choice. SATs, portfolios, taking courses at-a-distance prior to full admission...these also work.

When someone who has been unschooled decides that they want to be X, they simple focus their time and efforts to meet the requirements, both academic and bureaucratic, in order to meet that goal. 6 months of intense study not distracted by "school work" can lead to some wonderful SAT scores. 12 years of wonderful freedom to explore your areas of intrests can lead to some great "real world" work [artwork, experiements, field work] that can be used in a portfolio to make a great impression on a dean of admissions. Most importantly perhaps, the unschooler generally knows what she wants to be by the time her age of majority rolls around. Unlike many schoolers who go to college simply because it is "the next step", she will be following her dreams.

I suggest looking ahead and asking the admissions dean at the universities you think your child may wish to attend what is really required to get in - ask about portfolios, SATs and pre-course "real life" work. You may be surprised that the HS Diploma that has been held up as the only key to hallways of higher education is something of a shame. It will work, but their are other ways to get where you want to go.

Thanks again,
Ian McKay
Unschooling Father & former HS Teacher

One last thought on the subject of homeschooling. I don't know how it works in other states, but the state I live in have guidelines for homeschooling and if the parerent is not a certified teacher, tehy need to have a teacher who canhelp along to make sure that the kids are pretty well on target. I have friends who homeschool, some are certified, otehrs are not, the ones who are not (maybe the otehrs do, I don't know) always have a teacher who tests their child ast the beginning of the year as well as the end of the year, I think there might be a follow up in the middles of the year as well but I don't think that is mandatory. So, parents here are suppose to be working along with a certified teacher to make sure the kids are learning.

ALl kids deserve the best education that they can possibly get and I do believe this can be accomplished through the differnet methods that are available, parents and teachers need to be alert and available to provide each child the tools they need to accomplish the goal of a good education. I have chosen not to use the public school system in my area, it sucks. ANd I guarentee that my children will still receive a very good education, theya re well on their way. My husabnd and I are alert and involved parents which I think is one of the most imporant assets a child can have.

Honestly, i am a little bummed because I am not homeschooling at this time, I think it is an awesome idea and I have seen and am aware of many homeschooling families and the kids have not suffered in  any way, shape or form. Sure therea re those kids who have made their share of mistakes and are making bad choices but kids from all walks of life are goingt o do this, it doesn't mean that they received a bad education, it simply means they have decided to make bad choices, for there comes a time when our kids are gonna grow up and be ontheri owna nd as paretns, all we can do is our best in providing and helping them along and hope and pray that they follow our teachings and guidance.

I chose the particular school for my daughter because she wanted to go to school, she does very well in a group setting, and the school has a wonderful reputation, great results,the curriculum is top notch, they have great programming, they teach biblical truths, and the security is awesome, it's overall, a great school with the attitude that kids come first and if parents looked at these type of things plus whatever else is imporant in their eyes, they will find the right system for their child. We gotta know our kids and their learning styles and I elieve this can be determined petty much before they even enter their school years, I have already picked up on the fact that my youngest is not as quick at learning as her sister, her learning style is different, she learns by hands on, going over it quite a few times and the oldest learns by watching and listening. They both are similar in a lot of ways but at this point, which can change in time, have their own way of learning. I can see my oldest studying on her own as I did, I can see my youngest benefitting from study groups which I absolutely hated, didn't help me one bit.  Again, I know things can change and I am very aware of that but as a parent I am responsible for my kids, even when ot comes to their education and it is my responsibiity to put them in the system that works for thema nd that we are happy with and if all parents did this, then their child can succeed. Gotta be a lert and on gaurd at all times when it comes to our chilren and unfortuanetly that does not always happen and chances are the child isn't gonna do well in whatever system becuase the parent doesn't have their kids best interest in mind, sad, but true for some.

We live in a country whereparents have rights to guide and direct their kids and to choose what fits their personalities and learning styles, alot of countries do not have that, it is more of a dicatatorship and that is not good. Why have a family, if you have to follow a certain path? Education is very imporant, and I as a parent will make sure my kids get the best for it is my high priority and that needs to be the attitude of all parents I think, kids first when it comes to teaching them,

FAMOUS UNSCHOOLERS  Famous Homeschoolers, Unschoolers, Lifeschoolers (highschool dropouts who went on to educate themselves through experience) and some who wish they were.

• Ansel Adams
• Joan of Arc
• Roseanne
• Irving Berlin
• Rosamond Bernier
• Claude Berri
• William Blake
• Art Blakey
• John Boorman
• Pearl Buck
• Liz Claiborne
• Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)
• Buffalo Bill Cody
• Noel Coward
• Johnny Depp
• Charles Dickens
• Bo Diddley
• Thomas Edison
• Benjamin Franklin
• Henry Ford
• George Gershwin
• Whoopi Goldberg
• Samuel Gompers
• Maxim Jones
• Cyndi Lauper
• William Lear
• Abraham Lincoln
• Jack London
• Beryl Markham
• Liza Minelli
• Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
• Sean O'Casey
• Florence Nightengale
• Beatrix Potter
• David Puttnam
• Keith Richards
• Clement W. Stone
• Randy Travis
• Frank Lloyd Wright
• Orville and Wilbur Wright
• Brigham Young

Also, according to Grace Llewellyn's book (The Teenage Liberation Handbook), from which the previous list was taken, "…One third of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution of the United States had no more than a few months of schooling up their sleeves (Llewellyn, p.349.)"

 

Some brilliant schooled people also happened to hate school, and have strong statements to make about it:

"I loathed every day and regret every day I spent in school. I like to be taught to read and write and add and then be left alone"
Woody Allen

"As far as I have seen, at school…they aimed at blotting out one's individuality."
Franz Kafka

"I remember that I was never able to get along at school. I was always at the foot of the class."
Thomas Edison

"I have not the least doubt that school developed in me nothing but what was evil and left the good untouched."
Edward Grieg

"Together we have come to realize that for most men the right to learn is curtailed by the obligation to attend school."
Ivan Illich

"School days, I believe, are the unhappiest in the whole span of human existence."
H.L. Mencken

"Show me the man who has enjoyed his schooldays and I will show you a bully and a bore."
Robert Morley

More quotes: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6529/index3.html

Nothing has a stronger influence psychologically on their environment, especially on their children, than the unlived lives of the parents.

Carl Jung

 

and let's not forget Albert Einstein....he tried from the time he was 10 to quit school...

I think that the philosophy of Unschooling is being completely misrepresented here.  It is NOT that learning is "a side of effect of life".  The concept of unschooling is that learning is the basis of life and a natural curiousity lives and grows in all human beings.  Therefore children will follow THEIR interest and learn on their own terms.  Basically it says that learning is something we all do on a daily basis, and for the rest of our lives.  And there isn't a specific timeline for when a child should learn a certain skill, they will aquire the necessary skill as it is needed in THEIR lives.

My children are not unschooled, but do learn in a very similar fashion.  They do what we like to call "CHILD LED LEARNING".  What this means is that we work and learn on a timetable that is comfortable and exciting for each INDIVIDUAL child.  I do not say, "Okay, you have learned addition, now it is time for you to learn subtraction."   Rather when she tells me, "Mom I want to learn ___________ "  or  "How does that work?"   or  "Why is the sky blue?"   We research the answer and she learns on her own terms.  Children are much more likely to retain the knowledge they gobble up if it is something that is interesting and exciting to THEM.  

Here's an example.  Karizma is 5 years old.  She is now working on multiplication and double digit additon.  But that is NOT because I TOLD her that it was time to learn it, it's because she saw me doing it while making a grocery list and ASKED to learn it.  I showed her how to do both ONE time, and only ONE time.  She picked it up immediatly, because SHE was interested, not because it was what the masses were HAVING to learn in school that week.

She is able to read, not because I sat down and TAUGHT her how to read.... but because I made it a point to read to them throughout the day.  I read to them at bedtime, in the morning, while they eat lunch, and in the bath, and where ever else we are able to fit it in.  She also sees in my free time I am more inclinded to pick up a book, than to sit in front of the T.V.

Another example...  from Karizma :-)   Agian, she is only five, but has taught me more about living then I imagined was possible.  Karizma has said since she could speak a full sentence that she is a fashion designer.  When people ask her the question "What do you want to be when you grow up"  She smiles and says politely... "Oh, I don't need to grow up to be.  I already am.  I'm not GOING to be a fashion designer.  I AM a fasion designer!"  With her self determination and her own interest in learning about fashion, she has set about learning quiet a few subjects.  She sketches clothes (art), practices talking to "customers" (public relations), she "taught" herself how to count money (math), and she is DETERMINED to learn to sew.  On the very top of her Christmas list to Santa, is a Sewing Machine.  None of this has been imposed by me.  Nor have I REQUIRED her to learn ANYTHING.  Everything she knows, all the skills she has acquired, have come from a love of learning, and from a childs own curiousity about the world around her.

Likewise she sees that if there is something that I want to know, or a new skill I would like to acquire, I actively seek it.  I learn it on my own terms and on my own timetable, and in a fashion that works best for me.

I'm not saying that this life style is for everyone.  For one shoe will not fit every foot.  But this is what works for our family.  I am rewarded everyday!  Everytime I see her "get it", pick up a new subject, or do an experiment with all the ingredents in the cupboard.  I know that when we clean up pasta that's been soaked in food coloring and sugar, that it was a learning experience for her.  I am able to spend every day with my children, and that is a blessing to me beyond compare.   

Interesting you should mention Thomas Jefferson. He is considered a major proponent of public education. Here are some quotes from him.....

 

"A bill for the more general diffusion of learning... proposed to divide every county into wards of five or six miles square;... to establish in each ward a free school for reading, writing and common arithmetic; to provide for the annual selection of the best subjects from these schools, who might receive at the public expense a higher degree of education at a district school; and from these district schools to select a certain number of the most promising subjects, to be completed at an University where all the useful sciences should be taught. Worth and genius would thus have been sought out from every condition of life, and completely prepared by education for defeating the competition of wealth and birth for public trusts." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:399

 

"This [bill] on education would [raise] the mass of the people to the high ground of moral respectability necessary to their own safety and to orderly government, and would [complete] the great object of qualifying them to secure the veritable aristoi for the trusts of government, to the exclusion of the pseudalists... I have great hope that some patriotic spirit will... call it up and make it the keystone of the arch of our government." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:400

 

 "I... [proposed] three distinct grades of education, reaching all classes. 1. Elementary schools for all children generally, rich and poor. 2. Colleges for a middle degree of instruction, calculated for the common purposes of life and such as should be desirable for all who were in easy circumstances. And 3d. an ultimate grade for teaching the sciences generally and in their highest degree... The expenses of [the elementary] schools should be borne by the inhabitants of the county, every one in proportion to his general tax-rate. This would throw on wealth the education of the poor." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:70

 

"The public education... we divide into three grades: 1. Primary schools, in which are taught reading, writing, and common arithmetic, to every infant of the State, male and female. 2. Intermediate schools, in which an education is given proper for artificers and the middle vocations of life; in grammar, for example, general history, logarithms, arithmetic, plane trigonometry, mensuration, the use of the globes, navigation, the mechanical principles, the elements of natural philosophy, and, as a preparation for the University, the Greek and Latin languages. 3. An University, in which these and all other useful sciences shall be taught in their highest degree; the expenses of these institutions are defrayed partly by the public, and partly by the individuals profiting of them." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:487

 

"My bill proposes, 1. Elementary schools in every county, which shall place every householder within three miles of a school. 2. District colleges, which shall place every father within a day's ride of a college where he may dispose of his son. 3. An university in a healthy and central situation... To all of which is added a selection from the elementary schools of subjects of the most promising genius, whose parents are too poor to give them further education, to be carried at the public expense through the colleges and university." --Thomas Jefferson to M. Correa de Serra, 1817. ME 15:155

 

You do of course, realize that for the early presidents, there was NO public education. Jefferson was the brain behind education as we know it today. Jefferson himself, as well as most of the Founding Fathers and early Presidents, were from wealthy families. Only the wealthy could be educated at the time. Jefferson's goal was to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor. I don't think their "unschooling" is a fair comparison to today.

 

Seems like you don't really understand what unschooling is...

 

Most people don't. That is why we are ASKING questions. Unschooling may be very successful for some people. I think there is a danger that it could be misunderstood and abused. I would also think you would have to be pretty financially sound and have much flexible time as a family to do it well. I'm not thus far convinced it's the best route for every family.