Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

My husband's Aunt is an "unschooler"...her children are sharply behind when it comes to every subject...I personally find it to be a very irresponsible thing to do. Our society requires education and society benefits from it.  Not everything is learned as a side effect of living. That's ridiculous.

Quote From: julie1418

 I know that statistically home schoolers do much better both academically and socially.

 

Those statistics are largely invalid. In terms of statistical research, validity refers to the extent to which a study measures what it is supposed to measure. You have to be able to eliminate all possible variables that may effect the results. In most educational studies, it is very difficult to control all the variables.

 

When measuring the success of home schooling, not all home schooling families are required to participate. It is almost exclusively the ones who are doing a bang up job who participate in the research. It makes the data extremely skewed and it does not really measure whether or not the homeschooling is responsible for the success or the fact that those parents are so dedicated to their children. You cannot with any certainty attribute to success to the homeschooling as those students would probably do well in ANY educational setting. In fact, studies that separate students first by socioeconomic factors ( parents' income and education level) and THEN by schooling show that public school children tend to outperform both private school kids and home school kids.

 

Thank you for your manners and etiquette. Using either the literal or implied meaning, your statement is incorrect because NOT all home schooling parents are those who 'truly care about their child's education'. If you had read my entire post, I explained that many parents grow frustrated with the public school system because they resent being told the truth - that their kids are undisciplined and unmotivated. They get tired of being called when the child will not behave or when he refuses to learn. So they pull their kids out of school to avoid the reality that they are NOT doing their jobs as parents. These are the kids who don't show up on your statistics.

 

Bottom line, a parent is the child's first teacher, and I believe the most important.

 

I am in agreement there!

Quote From: unschools

I would also think you would have to be pretty financially sound and have much flexible time as a family to do it well. >>>>>>>>> Just wanted to respond to this as well. We're an unschooling family. We're also a low income family allthough we're now in much better shape financially then a few years ago when we began to unschool. I think if we sent our kids to school I'd HAVE to work. Between school fees, supplies and clothes we'd be sunk.

Quote From: omgwhocares

How do you know that they are behind?  Are you somehow testing them? 

 

Unschooling does not mean a lack of education, it is merely a name for a way of learning.

Quote From: omgwhocares

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
John Quincy Adams
James Madison
William Henry Harrison
John Tyler
Abraham Lincoln
Theordore Roosevelt
Woodrow Wilson
Franklin Delano Roosevelt

 

All these presidents were unschooled and voted into office.

 

And when was the last time any politician touted their elementary school or highschool education.  I would doubt that you would even know if someone had been unschooled, unless they told you. 

 

Seems like you don't really understand what unschooling is...

 

Quote From: sneakers145

Thing is, always-unschooled children are already enrolled in colleges around the country and are doing well.  Some are enrolled in advanced degree programs.  One of the unschooler moms on a list I'm on just announced her son's SAT score of 1410, and he'd never been to school.  Unschoolers are succeeding in life.  

 

Unschooling not just a flimsy idea that parents of young children are trying as an unproven experiment and we're all doomed to failure and dumping our ignorant children on the overburdened school system when we realize that education is better left to the 'professionals'.

 

Unschooling works.  Unfortunately, there is no way to define it, or quantify it, and explanations don't quite cut it.  And when you look at it from a schoolish frame of mind, it seems silly, insane even.  But basically our children and families live as if school didn't exist.  And when you step outside of the box, there's a whole wide world waiting to be explored.

 

Check the links I posted earlier.  A wealth of information there, far more than can be explained on a simple message board.  Especially one with a bias such as this.

Quote From: spiralweave

 Not everything is learned in school either - THAT is ridiculous. 

Think about your life - what you learned in school, what you learned at home, at church, with friends, while travelling.  How much of what you learned in "school" has helped you?  How much  has hurt?  (I have friends who only learned they were "stupid" at school because they were late readers and the lack of confidence has haunted them to this day, I learned that the secret to success was being great at taking tests - got me through school but didn't help much when I tried to suceed in the real world).

Our school systems were designed to produce factory workers - (really) and they do that remarkably well - but in the world of the future we are going to need all sorts of different kinds of people with all sorts of different skills.  We need people who learned both traditionally and non-traditionally - some who are motivated self learners that come from an unschooling background, some with a strong spiritual core that were christian homeschoolers, some with a personalized more traditional HSing background, some from elite charter schools, some from public schools - the mix of different ways of learning is very important.  No one way is right and no way is "ridiculous" because there is no possible way that any one type of schooling can produce the "perfect" education for all.

Quote From: sneakers145

Did you read the original post? I asked, in very simple terms, if there was any other form of assessment other than anecdotal? I made it VERY CLEAR that I didn't know enough about unschooling to be for it or against it. What I received in reply was an immediate statement that a lot of people are uncomfortable with unschooling and a huge defense against assessment. I think the implication was pretty clear.

 

Um, that's not quite true.

 

Here's the exchange:

 

Julie said:  I do not know enough about unschooling to support or dispute it, but I am wondering something. Other than your own observations, how do you KNOW your children are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment? I am not suggesting that they won't, I'm simply wondering if there is any other form of assessment other than anecdotal.   I answered: 

Unschooling challenges people's beliefs.  I doubt no matter what I or any other unschoolers say on this board will change anyone's mind here.  But I'm sure we'll make you think. :) 

 

How do I know, without testing and grades and such, you mean?  Without external evaluation?

 

Let me ask this before I answer:  How do you know YOUR kids are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment?  Do you rely on their grades?  Assessments by teachers?  What?

 

I see my kids in action every day.  My daughter, when she was 10, held a job at the barn mucking stalls and feeding horses in exchange for extra riding time.  She comes to work with me and is helpful to my clients when they walk through the door.  She can use a computer better than I can, including programming with html.  She currently runs an online store, though it deals with points instead of cash.  I see what she's learning and what she already knows in the questions she asks me.   Because I talk with my kids about everything and anything.

 

My son is only 8 but he's the master of tenacity.  He'll do whatever he sets his mind to do in life.  No doubt about that.  Because he already does.

 

Riding instructors, skateboard camp counselors, grandparents with education backgrounds, other parents have all commented on the maturity and poise of my children, along with being awed by their knowledge base.  They may not have the exact base their public schooled peers have but they have breadth and depth in the knowledge they do have.

 

No doubt in my mind whatsoever.  Plus, I have the benefit of knowing other lifelong unschoolers and seeing them get into college or succeed in business that i harbor no doubts about my own kids.

 

Why do people feel that external assessment is so important? 

 

Julie said:  It wasn't a combative question, I don't really think it warranted such a defensive answer. You aren't going to get many people to understand the dynamics of unschooling if you refuse to give concrete answers.

 

I said:  Combative?  I gave you an honest, thoughtful answer. 

 

I think unschooling makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, as it goes against what conventional wisdom tells us.  That kids can grow up and become productive members of society WITHOUT school.  Without honors.  Without transcripts.  It means that what you've been taught and believe isn't 100% correct.

 

****

You didn't read my honest, thoughtful answer to your question.  Nor did you answer my questions.  Do you really rely on external evaluations to know how your kids are doing?  I'm curious.

 

You ask, I've answered honestly and without animostity.  You apparently perceive that I'm hostile, defensive, and combative, which couldn't be farther from the truth. 

 

I don't have goals for my kids.  My kids have their own goals.  I don't decide which experiences that facilitate learning.  We just do cool stuff.  Whale watches.  Indian museums.  Aquariums.  Candle factories.  Glass blowing.  In addition to the usual stuff:  computer games, playstation, maps, National Geographic, Discovery Channel, K'nex, music, etc.  All of it sparks interest and creativity.  Some of it gets explored in far more detail than others.  Right now both are focused on communications -- reading, writing, and computer coding.

 

You seem to think that a person of age 18 has mastered every subject and stands on the precipice of life, 100% prepared to step forward and meet any goal they set.  If at 18  my unschooled child decided to go to college, then they'd study and take the SATs, see what requirements they need in addtion to what they've done, and they'll go.  College isn't something that one needs to decide to do at the magic age of 18.  It will be there when they're 22, 25, or even 35.  I know a radiologist who now wants to be an architect.  And off he goes.  People change their minds all the time in life.  To me, a college degree in accounting is useless if you want to work in the theater designing sets.

 

 

Quote From: winterwarmth

What I don't think has been made clear are some things about what eclectic homeschooling and/or unschooling does not mean.  Unschooling does not mean a child will never "take a class", or read a textbook about a subject.  Unschooling does not mean a child just "runs wild". A parent's job is still to be the parent, the facilitator, the guider, the person who enables the child to learn both the good and the bad.  Whether homeschooling, unschooling, or whatever the course of education, the bigger picture, the main goal, is to give a person the tools to know how to LEARN, as opposed to being spoon fed facts for short-term satisfaction of a teacher or guardian.

I hear questions all the time about "how will the child learn math?", well, to answer that, one would have to ask the question, "why are these subjects taught in schools in the first place?"  I mean, surely there is a reason that math and social studies, science and what not are taught, right?  There must be more to it than the idea that they have to satisfy a teacher.  They're expected to take that knowledge home and use it!  It's supposedly developmentally appropriate.  It's supposed to prepare them for the "real world".

The idea that math (or any subject) is only "available" in schools and not teachable in life
 is a long-believed myth.  There is so much in the real world that encompasses many "subjects".  Articles in the newspaper, for example, which capture my children's interest often prompt them to get a book out, or explore via other media (magazines, the internet, etc) on the subject and explore it further, be it history, biology, mathematics, sports, current events, politics, world religions, literature, or whatever ideas come up.

We are eclectic homeschoolers because we believe that knowledge pursued is knowledge retained.  We all have subjects which hold our personal interest for which we seek more and more knowledge outside of the classroom.  The same is for students.

Calculus and higher math are obtainable for those who have an interest in it and wish to pursue it.  If they find it challenging and fascinating, there are many careers for which knowing calculus is a requirement.  However, I know many successful people who are whizzes at English lit, yet who need a calculator to balance a check book.  But, they are successful in their chosen field of study. 

Adults get to choose what they pursue, and when they choose it, they pursue it because they *love* it or have an aptitude for it.  They also learn it when their minds, for whatever reason, are ready to receive and retain the knowledge.   Children deserve the same right, to be exposed to all there is out there, yes, but to also be allowed to embrace and focus on their interests.  Not everyone is good at the same thing at the same time, regardless of where one is educated, be it home, school, cave, Mars.  To expect everyone to uniformly know the same things with the same deadline is unrealistic.  That is why there are so many fields of interest out there.

This is in no way intended to knock public school teaching.  My hat is off to public school teachers.  It is a tremendous job, and I would never knock the hard work of a dedicated teacher.  To impart knowledge to 20 or more passing acquaintances is challenging.  Many relatives of mine, and even some who homeschool/unschool, are teachers by profession, and it is a different job to raise a classroom full of students than it is to raise
one's own children and loved ones.

Public school is, when you think about it, a relatively young insititution, compared to the vast number of generations who were expected to teach and prepare their own for the world.

Please forgive the length of this post.  This doesn't even begin to cover the aspects of homeschooling which would require a whole other mindset to understand.  Here is an article which explores it further:
http://naturalchild.com/guest/earl_stevens.html