Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

I have actually learned most of what I know on my own. But, I am a grown woman with discipline and I sat down and read on the topics I wanted to learn about.

My kids have this same "discipline". If they want to know something, they might read about it, ask me about it, google it, ask another adult or kid. There's lots of ways to learn something, and I see them learning all the time.

I also learned a lot in school.

So did I. But I would say that the "signal to noise" ratio was very, very low. The amount I learned in school, I could've learned on my own in 1/10 the time, with all of that other time left over for more creative pursuits. I think that's the real benefit of homeschooling in general, with a very low parent-to-kid ratio and lots of individual attention, all of the stuff that kids learn in school can really be learned in a very small amount of time. Even friends of mine who are public school teachers will say that they spend a very small amount of time actually teaching, and even then some of the kids aren't paying attention or learning.

I am simply stating that the "unschoolers" I know are very very very behind in what they should know. Some of the kids have vocabularies that are barely more advanced than my 2 and a half year old's vocabulary.

The hard thing with a message board conversation like this is we don't really know each other and can't see what each other is seeing. Perhaps if I met these "unschoolers" that you know, I too would think they are doing their kids a disservice. Any fringe movement will tend to draw people who take things to extremes, and there is a big difference between child-led learning and helping facilitate your children's interests and simply neglecting them. Perhaps these parents are using the term "unschooling" to describe a totally hands-off policy, I don't know. OTOH, there are plenty of kids in public schools who also are "very very behind". I meet public school graduates every day who can't hand me the correct change unless their cash register tells them what it is, for instance. And perhaps these children would struggle in school no matter what. Perhaps they have special issues that make learning difficult for them - I would guess that is the case if they don't speak with more advanced vocabulary than a 2 year old. Most kids learn to speak well before they are school-aged, so this points to greater issues than just whether or not they attend school. Without more information, I couldn't really tell you whether these people are even unschooling in the way that most of us define that word, or how or why their children are the way you perceive them, or even if your perceptions would match mine.

I can see how you would be skeptical if this is your only experience with "unschoolers". But just as kids who attend public schools come in all types and stripes, from uber-achievers with PTA parents to barely-functional with crack addict parents who aren't even home, I'm sure there is a variety (perhaps not nearly so wide a variety, but a variety none the same) of people in the homeschooling and unschooling worlds. I don't think anyone here has said that unschooling is something every family should do, or is even able to do (thinking of those crack-addict parents, it's not something I would suggest to them). But, if parents are able to give their kids the support and facilitation they need to pursue their own interests and learning, whatever those interests may be, unschooling is a wonderful way for children to continue their lifelong love of learning. And many of us here are telling our stories so that others can see how great it does work, how excited our kids are about the world around them, how their love of learning continues intact, how differently they approach things, each in their own way.

I can't speak to your "unschooling" acquaintances, but I can tell you that in our family it is a wonderful thing!

Washington Times Op-ed—Thanks Due for Educational Freedom
 

by J. Michael Smith
HSLDA President 

The homeschool movement offers long-term hope for the advancement of American values. It is one of the bright spots where the ideals articulated by the Founding Fathers still are being taught. More than 2 million students are homeschooled, and this number continues to grow by 7 percent to 15 percent each year. A new generation is being raised to respect the founding beliefs of America. One of those beliefs is a recognition that God governs the affairs of man.  

This week, the country will express its thanks to God for the many blessings that have been bestowed on America. We at the Home School Legal Defense Association believe the nation should be thankful hundreds of thousands of parents are willing to make the considerable sacrifice to educate their own children.  

It is a sacrifice that falls squarely on the individual family rather than society, and it does not cost the taxpayer anything. In contrast, it costs the taxpayer an average of $8,044 per child per year to educate a child in public school, according to the U.S. Department of Education. 

Even though a homeschooler creates zero cost to the taxpayer, homeschooling would not be beneficial if the homeschooled child did not receive an adequate education and consequently became a burden on society. Fortunately, homeschoolers have proved to be academically and socially successful. 

The success of homeschooling over the past 10 years has caused a response from public schools. Many public schools accept the idea of phonics as the first step to successful reading. Schools also emphasize parental involvement as one of the keys to a child’s academic progress. They also recognize the value of unit studies, in which a range of subjects is taught under a general topic, and hands-on learning, in which children experience practical application rather than simply looking at words on a page. 

All of these ideas are being discussed seriously within the public school establishment. They have re-emerged, many homeschooling experts say, because of the growth and success of the homeschool movement. Homeschooling has raised the bar for public education.  

Just as society should be thankful for this movement, homeschoolers recognize that they should be thankful that they live in a country that acknowledges parents’ right to homeschool.  

Homeschooling has been recognized formally by all 50 states. Unfortunately, many other countries make it very difficult for parents to exercise this right. 

Our Constitution and belief in liberty and freedom enable parents to make the choice to homeschool. It is a right parents hold dear because they can see the direct benefits. While children are home, they are developing stronger bonds with their parents and other family members.  

Parents are able to have more oversight over their children’s choice of friends and can delay the discussion of personal and controversial subjects until a child is ready.  

Allowing parents to do what is best for their children, and by extension their families, has proved to be the best policy not only for homeschooling families, but also for America. Homeschooling is the most energetic and exciting method of education available today.  

We all should be thankful for this movement. The basis of the upcoming holiday is thankfulness to God for providing for the early settlers. Most homeschoolers can relate to the early settlers as they also rely on God for provision as they raise their children with godly principles. The founding ideals of our country are timeless, and a new generation is being prepared to carry forward the American experiment.  

Michael Smith is the president of the Home School Legal Defense Association. He may be contacted at (540)338-5600; or send email to media@hslda.org. 

You are going to have to excuse the fact that this board is getting busy, and I don't remember exactly what I have posted to whom, but I am quite certain that I have been clear on the fact that I AM NOT AGAINST HOMESCHOOLING. I don't know how many ways I can say this. What I am against is simply believing that ANY parent can or will effectively teach their children.

I agree the school system is not able to meet the needs of every child. The school system is over-burdened and riddled with bureaucracy, among other problems. It can be especially difficult to help kids with rare disabilities or those who are very gifted. I don't know your specific circumstances, but I am sorry if you feel you were treated poorly by school officials.

Please try to look at a different perspective. I don't think ALL parents who resort to homeschooling have lazy, unmotivated children. In my experiences, which have been very different from yours, I have seen too many parents who DO fall into this category. You must know that there are simply some pretty bad parents out there. I have seen some pretty bad stuff, and then I see THOSE parents think they can homeschool because the "statistics" tell them homeschool is the way. The statistics alone fail to tell these parents all the other things they need to consider.

Parents income and education level have little to do with children's success.  I was a single mom until 3 years ago and I managed to work full time and educate my child.

That simply isn't true. It isn't a cause and effect, but it is a strong correlation, meaning not EVERY child from a wealthy family will succeed or every poor child will fail. There are always exceptions, and anybody who is truly committed can beat the odds, but the data on this is pretty conclusive.

If the parents are not doing their jobs as parents, they will probably not be interested in making the commitment to homeschool.

This is what I am trying to make you see. There ARE parents who are doing a poor job parenting who think they should homeschool. Very few parents THINK they are bad parents! If we are going to responsible in discussing homeschooling, we need to very clear on what the demands are and how much commitment it requires.

I am appalled that Dr. Phil used unschoolers to represent all homeschoolers. There are MANY different ways of homeschooling, unschooling is one way, but it is the most misunderstood and I don't personally know any homeschoolers who are unschoolers.

I homeschool. My students (children) have textbooks, they have assignments that they are graded on and we are pretty structured.

To say homeschooled children are at a disadvantage only shows your ignorance. My 17 year old scored a 28 on the ACT when he was 15 and started college at 16. He is in his 2nd year of college and has made the Dean's List as well as working after school. He is majoring in computer science.

My  youngest son is doing equally well in our homeschool and will be taking the ACT this summer. 

The bottom line is parents have the best interest of their kids and heart and it is their responsiblity to make the educational choice that is right for their child not anyone else's'

All these presidents were unschooled and voted into office.

Okay you listed a bunch of Presidents that were in office during an era where public schooling wasn't even an option for some of these men.  Particularly those whom hailed from the south.

One must realise that the school system was largely private and unregulated until the mid 1800's.

Yet your list in not completely accurate.

George Washington hailed from Virginia, and lived his life in the 1700's.  This time in history saw both the Colonial Era.....and the Revolutionary Era.  My understanding that the south had very few schools available until the beginning of the Revolutionary Era which began in 1763.

Thomas Jefferson  Did indeed go to a local school where he received what is considered a classical education.

John Quincy Adams  You may be correct about him........as he travelled extensively with his father overseas.

James Maddison  Again you may be correct.........yet let us not forget that public schooling wasn't necessarily available during this era.

William Henry Harrison is believed to have entered a public school at a young age once a school house was built within his community.

John Tyler  I don't know about, I think he did attend College.........but have no information about his early education.

Abraham Lincoln  Well we all know that he was born in Kentucky and was raised in a log cabin.  He hailed from the south like I stated during an era where a public school was likely not an option for him.  He was a voracious self educator, mastering literary works such as Shakespeare, the Bible.........and all things involving history.

Woodrow Wilson  Was homeschooled by his father.  It's believed that Wilson suffered from dyslexia or ADD.  Yet he DID attend classes at a small school in Augusta.

The Roosevelts' ;  They were indeed schooled.  F.D.R.  Attended a private Episcopalian boarding school.  Teddy  was HOMESCHOOLED by private tutors and his parents, which btw was a common practise back then.

Unschooling wasn't even a term or method until John Holt came along and began this movement during the 1960's and 70's.

So to use these past Presidents as an example of unschooled politicians is moot. 

Unschooling didn't even exist.  If a few of these men where unschooled, I feel it's because of lack of public educational institutions during that era.  Not despite of those institutions.

Fredi

I too want to make sure my kids get into college. I, as a home schooler, felt we should call all colleges in the area to find out what they wanted on a transcript when my child was in 8th grade. My oldest wants to get into Chemistry so, we not only tailored her educational high school plan around college; we added an advanced Chemistry class to her 12th grade class schedule. One of the college admissions advisors even told me when my child should take the PSAT, SAT, and ACT; we plan to take all three.

The bottom line is, I want the best for my kid.....it's MY responsibility to make she they get the best education so they can be whatever they want (college or no college). I just can't, even as a traditional home schooler, grasp how to do that by unschooling them. Even the word means to "not school"...I am sorry....I just don't understand.  

Here is what I did find when searching for “unschooling”: 

Unschooling contrasts with homeschooling in that the student's education is not directed by a teacher and curriculum. Although an unschooling student may choose to make use of teachers or curricula, s/he is ultimately in control of his/her own education. The student chooses how, when, why, and what s/he learns. Parents who unschool their children act as "facilitators" and provide a wide range of resources, instruction and support. Unschooling begins with a child's natural curiosity and expands from there, as an extension of his/her own personal interests and needs.  

I just hope this means that the parents also provide some educational guidance when the child is steering themselves off track. I feel most kids need a ton educational guidance it at any age.