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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 27, 2006, 7:58 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: winterwarmth

I believe most people's objection to sheltering is the fact that they don't have a working (as opposed to colloquial) definition of "shelter".  They see it as synonymous with complete and utter isolation.  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sheltering

Our job, as parents is to shelter our children until they are developmentally capable of dealing with the next challenge.  This is either a step-by-step process or readiness comes suddenly, depends on the situation.

When I hold my 3 year old's hand as she crosses the street, for example, THAT is sheltering, and protecting.  I do believe that were I to just allow her to run wild any old direction, that I'd be rightly judged as someone who did not do her job.

Sheltering is more synonymous with "supporting".  NOT isolation.  In fact, I'd have to work extremely hard to isolate my children, if that's what I wanted to do.
You put it so much more eloquently than I :) Gracias! :)
 
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November 27, 2006, 8:04 am PST

Actually...

Quote From: tinkerbell123

I think homeschooling is what society did 100's of years ago.  We are regressing!!!!  It began with parents and family teaching children at home. Those individuals realized, children could get  a "better" education, if their community could get a teacher and an environment to support that learning.  "Walla"  a little red schoolhouse.  Over the years, public schools began to grow.  children were learning more than we could ever imagine was possible.  Now, all of a sudden this generation has decided that being taught at home is a better learning environment!!!  I believe our country is, where it is today, because of the children of many previous generations that attended Public school.  Professionals taugt their children, Parents enhanced that learning.   If parents feel that public schools are filled with violence, drugs, etc.  than take that energy and interest you have and put it in the public schools, work with administration, staff, other students, to help make the public schools a better place for "ALL" children, not pulling your child out to make it better just for them!!!   
Actually, if you read back in history "public schools" started during the war when all of the men were deployed overseas and the women had to go to work in the factories.  Society had to decide what to do with the younger children.  So "public school" was a daycare with learning because the mothers (teachers) HAD to go to work.  And also the children were not segregated by age then either.  Which leads me to another point.  Where in REAL LIFE do adults only "socialize" with others of the same age?  I have found that, for the most part, homeschool children do better socially than their public school counter parts.  My children can have an intelligent conversation with an adult, interact with children their age, and have a blast playing with others older and younger than themselves.  It is also said that children whose parents are more involved in their education are higher achievers, more willing to learn and do better all together academically.  Now I ask you, how much more involved can a parent be in their child's education than taking it into their own hands and homeschooling?  Did you know that colleges actually seek out homeschoolers?  They WANT them in their schools because they are generally motivated learners.  Please don't think that I'm bashing parents who send their children to public or private schools.  It is a very personal family choice and certainly NOT for everybody.  There are SO many other points that I could make but I'll let it go for now.  Thanks for reading.
 

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November 27, 2006, 8:13 am PST

support for homeschooling

Quote From: julie1418

Thank you. Again, I always appreciate the support!

 

Some people definitely get into teaching for the wrong reasons. The summers off seem nice, but I was single when I taught, and I ended up always needing to find a temporary job for the summer. Those who are in it for the vacations are in for a rude awakening. If you don't LOVE teaching, the ten other months will seem like a life sentence!

 

The only way we are going to get better teachers is to make teaching more attractive. More money is part of the equation, but there is so much more. My middle school students would ask me why I wanted to teach; they would remind me that the money wasn't great, I wasn't really respected, and I had to deal with some pretty horrible behaviors.  LOL! They would ask if I just could not do anything else (Nothing like teaching middle school for a few years to keep your ego in check!). They understood very well the public perception of teachers.

 

We need a real commitment to get the disruptive and violent kids out of mainstream classrooms. Average children should be able to learn in a safe environment. All the wonderful, hands-on things the homeschooling parents speak of, teachers can replicate or simulate when the children in the room know how to behave. Teaching is a JOY when you can get really active and watch the sparks fly.

 

Just as homeschoolers feel misunderstood, so do teachers. Teachers have the added burden of not really being able to defend themselves because we have to protect the privacy rights of all children. One poster (a thousand or so back) mentioned how the school did NOTHING to stop the class bully. What he did not know was that the school cannot reveal any information about the bully. If a child is diagnosed with ANY kind of learning disability or exceptionality, the school cannot suspend the child for more than ten total days per school year without a hearing - this is a federal law. Expulsion for ESE kids is next to impossible. The child must be arrested and convicted of a crime to leave the school.

 

I left education to stay home with my kids, but to be honest, I was ready to go. I took it all too personally. It was very hard to be blamed for things for which I had zero control. I was at the point where I could not turn on the news because I could not listen to another anti-public school, anti-teacher broadcast.

 I' m so sorry you ran into such barriers to what should have been a much more rewarding career.  I know it surely had its high points, but if  the downside drove you out, they obviously weren't enough.  You may or may not realize it, but your experiences reflect  the reasons that many parents remove their children from school.  Most of them know you have no recourse, but they have their children's interests to consider and can't wait for the administration to learn to care about them.    I have been a substitute teacher for several years now.  I am currently enrolled in our local university to complete my bachelor's degree and become a teacher.    I hope I can have a rewarding career teaching primary school children a good foundation so that they will not grow up thinking that there is no use for reading in their lives.  That was the attitude expressed by the kids in the dyslexic reading program I worked closely with for two years as that teacher's designated sub.  I hope that my impression of our local school district will still hold up once I see it from a full time teacher's viewpoint.  Wish me luck!
 
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November 27, 2006, 8:15 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: alasandra2003

My overprotective Mother had this stupid idea that just because a teacher had a teaching degree she was a paragon of virtue and could do no wrong. After all I was in SCHOOL. Thankfully another teacher rescued me after walking in on the teacher verbally assaulting me during recess.

 

My kids attended public school briefly. You obviously choose not to bother to read that I had some good teachers too, and made some good friends. But the public schools were not meeting my children's academic needs. Since it is my duty to make sure my kids get the best education possible we choose to homeschool. My 17 year old started college at 16, where he is thriving. That's what homeschooling did for him.

Agreed.
Also, keep in mind, is it realistic to believe that teachers are going to tell on themselves?  When a parent picks up their child from school, I have never heard the teacher volunteer with the information, "Why HELLO!  Mrs. Marshall.  Jane did well today, but at recess I called her stupid and lazy and a slacker.  I also saw someone punch her and I did nothing about it."

No.  It's more like Mrs Marshall making the first attempt and saying, "How was the day?" and the teacher would use creative phrasing.  "Today was great!  We had some problems today, but a bit of motivational speaking and it was all worked out.  Also, I had to help with an argument between her and another child.  But I doubt these problems should be encountered again."
 
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November 27, 2006, 8:18 am PST

NC has testing!

Quote From: omgwhocares

I can't speak for all states, but I am fairly certain that none have required lessons or testing.  You listed very few states and there are definitely others that do not require all or most of the things you listed. 

 

A lot of states offer testing as an option, but offer other options such as portfolio assessment by a certified teacher.  Unschoolers easily submit a scrap book of their many activities and learning experiences over the year to abide by that regulation.  Unschoolers likely go beyond the required number of hours of instruction, so I don't see that as a problem. 

 

Unschoolers live in the world, and have to abide by law like everyone else. 

 

BTW, most states do not have homeschooling laws, they have regulations. 

 

 

In North Carolina, homeschool children have to take a nationally recognized acheivement test yearly. 
 
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November 27, 2006, 8:23 am PST

What is in the BEST interest of the individual child?

 

I had wanted to read through the entire message board, but it got quite overwhelming.  I wasn't sure I was going to post, but decided to.  The only thing that matters is what is in the BEST interest of the individual child.  Whether in traditional school, homeschool or unschool, each can have it's own extremes for the good and bad.

My daughter started off in a labortory Kindergarten at an University.  Then, she went to public school from first grade through third grade.  I volunteered in the schools, was the Box Top Coordinator for the school for 3 years, joined the PTA, in our final year in public school, I was also the PTA president.  In our first year in public school, I was invited to join and did join the "A" Team (Achievement Team) which consisted of school administration, teachers and up to 3 parents at the school level and at the district level, included superintendent, administration,  teachers and whatever parents were part of the team.  Unfortunately, out of an entire district, I was the ONLY parent that showed up all 3 years.  There was the occassional parent, but it was extremely rare to see one more than once or twice.  The school level group met weekly, then the district level met once a month.  At these meetings we discussed concerns and tried to work for solutions to the educational problems at the schools.  Also, addressed concerns in regards the State Testing Standards.  I enjoyed being a part of the group for 3 years.  But, being involved and present in the school and at key meetings, allowed me to see things that the average parent doesn't get to see and that was disturbing.  Teachers that were all giggles and smiles while parents were in the school, but who were screaming at children in their classrooms on a REGULAR basis, making children in grades 1-3, do class work at the lunch table, was unbearable to watch and listen to.  Then, watching dedicated, impressive, loving teachers being crushed with red tape, State standards and unnecessary paper work, to the point that they were losing their joy of teaching was heartbreaking.  They were losing valuable time that they used to inspire their students, due to having to teach to the test.  Preparing children for the all consuming State test, since that is what their federal funds were based on.  Watching students in a Kindergarten through Third Grade school, getting physically ill, headaches, trips to school nurse increase, fainting all due to the stress they were under, due to their teachers being stressed out and worried about their jobs.  Putting a child between a teacher and her paycheck is not the place a child needs to be.  Listening to teachers and administrators question and being confused about State Standards Test, when by law, our children could pass or fail determined only by that test, was very unnerving.  I even raised my hand in the meeting and expressed that how could they be so confused at this point, when our children are being held accountable for test results that they themselves were totally in the dark about and that it was not building confidence in me that they had my child's best interest at heart.  The final blow, was our final year of public school, they changed the gifted and talented program, from children being pulled out and being worked with in a group, to just handing them a huge file folder of work to complete before the end of the week, which was in addition to their regular school work.  My child who loved, loved, loved school, went to hating school in less than a month.  She didn't want to get up, she didn't want to go to school and her love of learning started to sink fast.  Even the teachers who originally had those gifted classes were in an uproar, by the next year two of them quit, due to the unjust way the district was dealing with the children in the gifted and talented program.  So, by the xmas break I had decided to homeschool.  If I hadn't been the president of the PTA, I would have pulled my child out of public school then, but I had to keep my word in regards my post in the PTA and so I finished the year out.  So, now we are in our fourth year of homeschooling, last year I was reviewing my decision, and I had run into a teacher from my daughters former school and she asked how we were doing.  I said fine and that I was reviewing my decision for the upcoming year and to my surprise, she said, "You didn't hear this from me, but you are doing the best thing for your daughter.  If you can continue homeschooling your doing the best thing, since the gifted kids are not seeing their full potential in the classroom.  The teacher's don't have the time to work with them."  That was the answer to my question. 

Today, I have the same attitude I had when I started, "What is in the BEST interest of MY child?"  I will continue to homeschool until it is no longer beneficial for my child.  About a month ago, we were visiting a friend and her daughter is in 10th grade and had her Chemistry Book.  My daughter who is in 8th grade, sat down and started reading the book and was intrigued by it and identified what type of chemist my sister is and the type of work she does and was taking notes on 2 chapters of the book.  On the way home, she shared this information with me and asked how we could get a Chemistry Book, because she wanted to continue to study about Chemistry. 

So even though this decision is not the easiest for me to live, it is the best for my daughter right now.  Yes, I miss the private time I had when she was in school.  Yes, it was easier to send her off and let someone else try to meet her needs with the challenge of also meeting 29 other students needs.  But, was it in my child's BEST interest?  No.  So as her parent, I have the responsibility to make sure where she is, is where she NEEDS to be.  This cannot be taken lightly.  And as for the Socialization argument.  It is the responsibility of every parent, whether their children are in traditional school or homeschooled, that they get PROPER socialization.  Your child can be unbalanced socially, in either traditional school or homeschool.  It is a weak soap box to stand on to discredit homeschooling.  The following was a very insightful look at Socialization:

 

( This is a repost, removing the article placed here, due to copywrite.  Hopefully, my post is now at the Dr. Phil site.)

 

With the connections, resources and power that Dr. Phil has, it is a shame that he did use his gifts wisely.  To truly inform the public and benefit children.  A big disappointment.

 

It is sad that people have to attack something they have little information about and that is not necessarily accurate information at that.  Hopefully, that can change.

 

 

 
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November 27, 2006, 8:26 am PST

try to have a rational argument on a subject

Quote From: kabobbers2

1. How about just teaching morals in general aside of religious beliefs?? Public Schools can teach general morals, do not hurt others, be kind, dont be a bully etc. 2. It is unacceptable for parents NOT to teach their kids about sex. As a parent you are obligated!! Why have children if you can teach them or talk to them about these things?? Parents need to get over it and parent their kids. You aren't really making sense on this point either. So I can't reallly expound much more on what you've stated here. You go from STD's and teaching sex, to innoculations and science. 3. Whats wrong with teaching kids to wait? We aren't just talking about preventing disease with the sex talk, we are trying to prevent teen pregnancy. Kids have no concept of what it means to become pregnant at 15, 16 or 17. But then again, they can just have an aboration, an easy fix for immature behaviour. 4. So says you. This is your opinion based on what you believe. But others believe differently. No one debates those that choose to send their kids to public school. Homeschool parents dont shake their fingers at parents who choose to send their kids to public school. Its every parents choice on how to educate their children. What is so intimidating to parents that choose to send their kids to school that they must judge those that keep their children at home? That maybe one day homeschooling might be the norm? Let it go. If its not your cup of tea so be it, just leave the rest of us alone to educate our children. And whoever has the statistics on how socially inept kids are from homeschooling or how they are completely ignorant. Any case studies, which I believe are none. Link em, I would love to see em. BTW, www.hslda.com has all the scientic basis behind homeschooling. they can show you the numbers. :)

Boy do you jump to conclusions, making up arguments I have never made.

 

I never said I'm against home schooling.  I'm not, as long as the parents know what they're doing.  Religion should be taught in home schools, private schools or churches.  Just not in public schools.

 

I'm not against abstinence.  There's nothing wrong with wanting kids to wait.  It's my preference, as a matter of fact.  It's just not the only way and we should be prepared to protect kids who do it differently.

 

I agree parents should teach their kids about sex.  Fact is, many don't.

 

I never even said the word abortion.  I talked about birth control.  Abortion is not easy and if  birth control is practiced, it is unnecessary.

 

I sense the frustration in your post as you tell me to "let it go."  But you're talking about home schooling, which I never mentioned.  Why do you have so much trouble following an argument and responding rationally?  Because you are not thinking rationally so much as you are blindly arguing your beliefs even when they're not being attacked.

 
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November 27, 2006, 8:35 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: raeanneh

I have been reading through the posts, such an overwhelming amount of diversity within these writings! I am grateful for the support on the homeschooling issue and I am non-judgemental on those that crucify homeschooling and unschooling. I believe everyone needs to do what they feel is the best for their family. There are so many reasons for my wanting to teach my girls at home but when I sent in my opion on this subject, Emily Keyes had been shot and killed a few days before and then the horrific events in the Amish community occurred. That was my motivation for submitting my opinion to Dr. Phil but not the only factor in my homeschooling decision.

Although Steve and I have not come to an agreement on the schooling issue, we are both keeping our minds open and discussing the different options. I find the show was rather amusing, showing us being at battling odds, when in fact, we are both very much in love with each other and usually talk about anything that is bothering us. I am checking into private schools with lower student/teacher ratios with some security and Steve is reading information on homeschooling.

I still feel that my girls would benefit from homeschooling. I am well educated, having my associates degree in automotive technology and my paralegal certification. I have taught adult classes at Colorado State University, given lectures and have also written and published an automotive handbook. Although I don't ever forsee us doing another talk show, this has been a very valuable learning experience and I'm grateful for the comments, both positive and negative!

RaeAnne (second mom on the show)

Although Steve and I have not come to an agreement on the schooling issue, we are both keeping our minds open and discussing the different options.

 

One thing you may have already done but I'll throw this idea out there in case you haven't, is (since your kids are young) is that you can try it for a year or two, and if it's not working out, you can always put them in school.  That way Steve can be a part of homeschooling, can see the activities, meet the other homeschoolers in your area, and actually see how your kids are doing.  And it allows you to shine as a homeschool mom (you sound like you've done your homework and this isn't just a knee-jerk reaction to school violence) but also gives your husband that escape clause if it's truly not working out.  I think his perceptions of homeschoolers may change over time.

 

Good luck to you and your family.  Your girls are precious.

 

P.S.  We radical unschoolers aren't as loony as you might think. ;)

 
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November 27, 2006, 8:39 am PST

ask questions - loudly

Quote From: momisme2

Reading you are a special ed teacher I was hoping you may be willing to answer some questions I have regarding my 8 year old son.

 

My husband and I have been very concerned over his test taking abilities.  He is an excellent student in every area EXCEPT when it comes to standardized written tests.  They started certain state tests the year he went into kindergarden(sorry cant remember the name) and every year he has fallen below the cusp.  Because of this, they have him in a special ed class once a week.  However, he makes honor roll(or what pases for it in elemenatary school) every year!  The last report card he had all 90s except for two upper 80s.  Yet, because he consistantly falls below this line they have as acceptable with these standardized tests, they put him in the special ed classes. 

 

Im not sure what I should do.  When I spoke with his teacher, a wonderful woman who I respected and liked, she was at a loss as well.  She said he often is playing at his desk, all caught up in other activties, so she tries to draw him into the lessons by asking him questions which she is sure he wont answer correctly as he hasnt been paying attention.  She said every time she asks him a surprise question, he looks up from whatever task he is doing, gives her the proper answer, then goes back to his own thing.  She said she cant understand  how he knows the answers when he is so involved in other things but he ALWAYS does.  She says he excells in reading and math, every area actually, yet because of his low tests scores on these state tests, she has to put him in these classes. 

 

Anyways... im wondering if there are places to turn to get some answers and help for him.  If he continues to fail these standardized tests while excelling academically, she said they will probably still have to continue putting him in special ed classes.  I dont understand how a child can be on the honor roll and be in special ed classes as well!  Its ALL because for some reason(and THAT is what I NEED answers to!) he cant pass these state tests.  Im just so confused about it! 

 

 Do you, or anyone else, have any suggestions on what may be causing this(already had his eyes checked and his vision is fine) or any suggestions on where I could turn to get him the help with these tests he so obviously needs?

THANK YOU!

Your kid can't be placed in special ed unless he has a diagnosis that qualifies him for it.  so, first, find out what the diagnosis is.  Attend the special ed committee that placed him and ask questions.  Demand to know why your kid performs so well but has trouble with standardized tests.  This problem often arises from "teaching to the test" instead of holding mere intelligence in high esteem.

 

Take him to an educational specialist and  ask for a complete assessment after you get the school's diagnosis.  The school may me mistaken or may have overlooked something.  He may need psychological counseling to help him get over test anxiety.  He may have a subtle learning disorder that makes it hard for him to take a test in the alloted time.  He may be so bright he's bored stiff by ordinary school work and the droning tests.

 

You must get these questions answered before you'll know what to do.

 
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November 27, 2006, 8:42 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: terrafay

Actually, if you read back in history "public schools" started during the war when all of the men were deployed overseas and the women had to go to work in the factories.  Society had to decide what to do with the younger children.  So "public school" was a daycare with learning because the mothers (teachers) HAD to go to work.  And also the children were not segregated by age then either.  Which leads me to another point.  Where in REAL LIFE do adults only "socialize" with others of the same age?  I have found that, for the most part, homeschool children do better socially than their public school counter parts.  My children can have an intelligent conversation with an adult, interact with children their age, and have a blast playing with others older and younger than themselves.  It is also said that children whose parents are more involved in their education are higher achievers, more willing to learn and do better all together academically.  Now I ask you, how much more involved can a parent be in their child's education than taking it into their own hands and homeschooling?  Did you know that colleges actually seek out homeschoolers?  They WANT them in their schools because they are generally motivated learners.  Please don't think that I'm bashing parents who send their children to public or private schools.  It is a very personal family choice and certainly NOT for everybody.  There are SO many other points that I could make but I'll let it go for now.  Thanks for reading.
EXACTLY!!! you said, "Children whose parents are more involved in their education are higher achievers, more willing to learn and do better all together academically."  Parents more involved is the key!!!!   As far as family choice!!! I disagree, What your children experience and learn in childhood, will someday directly effect my children, when they are adults.  Your kids, will grow up and hopefully be a integral part of society, using their background, and upbringing, as a basis for their adult decision making process.  They may make decisions about MY healthcare, or my childs healthcare, public policy decisions, etc. etc.  So what you do with your kids, now, can effect, other peoples lives later.
 
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