Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

The unschoolers I know do not use text books...they actually believe that everything their kids need to know they will learn just by living.  Terms like radius and ulna would not be in their vocabulary.

I guess the ones I know are extreme in this regard.

We didn't say this was unique to unschooling parents, not at all.  Many parents see the world as a fascinating place and explore it with their children.  When you spend time doing fun things with your 2-yr-old, you can see how she's learning, even if you're not giving a 'lesson.'

 

What's different is that we also saw these things when our kids were toddlers, with their natural, insatiable curiosity.  We also saw that 'school' would get in the way of that exploration.  Natural learning doesn't stop when a child is five.

 

People here seem to be most concerned with reading.  The written word is all around us.  On TV, newspapers, magazines, computers, games, toys, etc.  It's natural that kids will want to learn to decipher the words and learn to read.  An involved parent will naturally read to their children, answer their questions regarding 'how to spell, what does that say, what letter does house start with' etc.  And as they get older and start to make friends, and want to e-mail, they have a built-in motivator for learning to spell and write.  Just last night my 12-yr-old and I had a nice discussion of there/their/they're and your/you're.  Kids want to learn to read and write and participate in their world.

 

People are also concerned with math.  Numbers are all around us.  We use algebra every day.  What is it, exactly?  Equations with x and y?  Only in notation.  What we use it for is to figure out what we want to know from what we do know.  Same with division.  Naturally occuring examples.  My daughter asked me why someone would write 1000K instead of 1 Million.  Out of the blue.  But apparently she was relating to something she'd read, seen, or heard.

 

Kids in school aren't going to learn everything, either.  But kids who haven't had their love of learning squelched (like I did) will be able to learn anything at anytime.  A recent unschooler we know wanted to attend a particular college but found she needed a math credit.  She spent time with a friend who is a math genius, and in 3 weeks she met the prerequisite.  3 weeks as opposed to a semester or two.

 

Unschoolers tap into the internal motivation inherent in children.  Our goal is a lifelong love of learning.  And if you apply  yourself, they can accomplish anything.

I strongly feel that home schooling should not be allowed without some mandatory attendance in a school accompanying it because it enables any parent who wishes to control and isolate their child to do so.  I've had this conversation on other boards and heard from many people who home-schooled, and at best, they were doing it for themselves, not for the children.  There are many reasons why parents might choose to keep their child isolated.  They may be a control freak, an obsessive/compulsive who is afraid of germs or some other type.  They may have cult-like affiliations or be extreme bigots and wish to indoctrinate their children and keep them from being the benefactor of freedom of speech that is found outside the home.  They may be abusive or may be moldesting their child and not want them to have an opportunity to tell.  Many don't think their children should be offered any scientific thought because of their strict Christian beliefs.  They may be simply co-dependent and too selfish to let the child go out and be away from them.  I believe a good many home-schoolers are just that -- needy and overprotective or selfish and dependent on their children to take care of them because of emotional problems, mental problems, substance problems or other reasons.  If a child is home-schooled, how long would it be before anyone knew if she went missing?  If a child is isolated and home-schooled, how would they ever be able to tell someone they are being abused?  More to the point, if they are isolated from their peers and home-schooled, how would they even KNOW their abuse was abnormal and that it didn't happen to most children? 

 

I have heard all sorts of justifications for home-schooling, but every one I've heard, at best, boiled down to it was more convenient for the parent to do so, not that it was in the child's best interests. 

With regard to forcing them to learn something: It's hit or miss.  I know some people to this day who say, "You know, the teachers kept trying to drum such and such into my head but I could never really grasp it - perhaps I could understand it now."

I would be very concerned, yes, if one of my children showed neither interest, nor aptitude for learning to write by the age of 12.  Each of my 4 children learned to read and write at different ages, but when they did, it was authentic.  But for the hypothetical example of the 12 year old not writing, I would not give up, I would try to find ways to encourage it all the time.  I'd also meet my children where they were at, and accept the fact that for this particular child, acquiring the skill was simply going to take longer, but would be slow and steady.

But learning anything needs a receptive and willing mind.   I do believe that forcing, rather than encouraging, simply is counter-productive.  It wears out both the caregiver and the child, with a ratio of very few good results.  I know for my own children, the best way to shut them down and get a brick wall between us is when I insist on forcing my own agenda on them.  They even do have built-in gimmick detectors.  BUT, there are times in their life when they do have to learn things, and when they know why, and need to apply it, they are more open minded and will do it.

I know for myself in school, that much of what I learned for the purpose of getting a number on a test, and not for my own interest, did little for me long-term.  There were many subjects in school I was passionate about and addicted to, and I didn't even have to write the final exam as the teacher knew that my rubber arm needed no twisting to get any of the concepts - (language arts, social studies, music, etc).

I'll anecdotally recount, there was one subject at school, though, that the adults in my life did FORCE on me.  Looking back as an adult, I am grateful for the thought behind it (i.e. I could see what they were driving at), but on said subject, I still get my defenses up if anything is defined as being "that" subject.   Nor to this day, can I remember any of the specifics of what I learned, even though I took said subject at said grade level 3 times (1 failed 2 passed).  Oddly enough, one of my children loves this subject and I am keen on facilitating their learning for it, and they like it, and don't need my personal expertise on it to learn it.  They learn it because they obsessively research it.

This is a bit long winded, but I hope it provides a bit more information.

 I am sorry, not to be mean, but I was speaking to the poster named julie. I do not unschool so, please, do not get all huffy with me, please; just because you are not understanding home schooling as a whole. I am a traditional home schooler, hate me or not, that uses books and tests......read my other posts. Please, lets not attack people who were not even speaking to you.

You don't and aren't home schooling....great...but, it's my choice to do so and my kids are learning just fine.

And, if you read my post all the way...you will see that I do not understand unschooling either. Maybe I did not understand you correctly in your post but, it sounds as if you are against home schooling as a whole.

Then my question is how did he KNOW to ask about a radius and ulna?

 

And how did he LEARN to read so that you direct him to the book.

 

Some of the subjects I studied and loved in school were ones I wouldn't have picked on my own because I didn't KNOW to want them. Do you have an idea or a plan as to what to what you want to expose your children?

So...if I tap into the internal motivation inherent in my child but still choose to send her to public school would that make me an unschooler too?

But kids who haven't had their love of learning squelched (like I did) will be able to learn anything at anytime.

 

Therein lies the difference. I don't feel like anybody has ever squelched my love of learning. I usually enjoyed school and liked the challenges. I went to a combination of public and private schools, and although not all the teachers I encountered were top-notch, I do feel like overall I had good experiences. I also had parents who were actively involved. I have always felt that if I had the time and money, my goal in life would be to a professional student. If I hadn't had someone insist I develop basic skills, even when it wasn't fun, I would have had nothing to build upon and THEN learning would have been frustrating.

 

A recent unschooler we know wanted to attend a particular college but found she needed a math credit.  She spent time with a friend who is a math genius, and in 3 weeks she met the prerequisite.  3 weeks as opposed to a semester or two.

 

So I am assuming that somewhere along the way, she had developed adequate math skills. Math is somewhat linear - if you cannot add, multiply, subtract, you are not going to suddenly break out into analytical geometry.

 

Unschoolers tap into the internal motivation inherent in children.  Our goal is a lifelong love of learning.  And if you apply  yourself, they can accomplish anything.

 

I'm going to venture to say that is what any good parent or educator would do. Developing a lifelong love of learning was certainly MY goal when I taught, and it is also my goal for my own children, no matter what educational route we take.

 

In our house, radius and ulna come up regularly, along with other anatomical terms.  We frequently have discussions of how the body works.  My kids have seen internal organs of deceased animals for a great visual anatomy lesson.

 

We don't use textbooks.  I find them rather outdated.   With Google at our fingertips, we can get a lot of up to date info.  Look at the recent changes in the planets.  Textbooks for the next 20 years (schools don't buy new textbooks every year) will still say there are 9 planets, not 8, with 3 planetoids.  We're in the information age, with the latest stuff right to our home with the click of the mouse.

 

It's inconceivable that someone in this day and age, with involved parents, would NOT learn to read or write.  Examples strewn about here (not by you, just in general what I'm reading today) imply that without formal instruction, a child won't learn how to string sentences together.  It's not the case.  Kids want to communicate.  There's a need to know at work here.  They need to know, so they're interested in learning.  For some things, maybe they're not interested today, but they will be next week, next month, or even next year.

 

But we go in spurts.  We've touched on a bit of classical music, but haven't really explored it in depth.  Others know more pop culture references than I ever will.  We all have different strengths and weaknesses, but not all weaknesses are debilitating. 

 

Unschoolers do not, by default, use textbooks (as in, "this is required reading for course X", learn up to page Y by Friday as you will be tested"), but they wouldn't be opposed to giving their child one if they asked for it, is all I am saying.  Learning *some* things by reading is a 'part of life'.  A newspaper is a "textbook" on current events, documentaries, tv news spots, present a view of the world which children as well as adults, explore.

And how can one live and not bump into terms like radius and ulna (as an example, not specifically just those terms)?  A friend of ours broke her arm and one of my children asked which bone she broke.  She replied, "The radius or ulna, I can't remember which one."  And hey, they may have come across those particular arm bones not until next year, but the point is, they wanted to learn about it.  No, I didn't go out and get a textbook for the occasion, but if they had asked for more learning resources on the topic than I, or a quick and dirty google search, could offer, then I'd have pointed them to the library.

Based on your posts about this unschooling family, I wonder how they are defining unschooling.  Because unschooling still involves raising one's child.  Every day, just going out in the world, my children hear words like, "consumers", "referendum", "mortgage", "optimum nutrition" etc, and ask about it.  Learning is one aspect of our thriving.

Unschooling, and it's close neighbour of "eclectic homeschooling" (although they are two different learning lifestyles), have one thing in common - relevance.