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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 20, 2006, 12:35 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

I agree that homeschooling has come a long way. There are many resources that have become available in the past ten years that have changed the dynamics of homeschooling. When I worked as a school administrator, I always passed on all the various websites and names of organizations and support groups to any parent considering homeschooling.

 

That doesn't change the fact that not every parent is cut out for homeschooling. Some parents do not see their own weaknesses. I can't tell you how many parents "correct" their child's homework and are actually undoing the correct work the child had and are confusing their kids and giving them inaccurate information and skills.

With the curriculum we use, we also have Teacher's Editions, so when we 'correct' our children's work we are doing it 'correctly' - no pun intended.  ;o)
 
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November 20, 2006, 12:40 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: winterwarmth

With regard to forcing them to learn something: It's hit or miss.  I know some people to this day who say, "You know, the teachers kept trying to drum such and such into my head but I could never really grasp it - perhaps I could understand it now."

I would be very concerned, yes, if one of my children showed neither interest, nor aptitude for learning to write by the age of 12.  Each of my 4 children learned to read and write at different ages, but when they did, it was authentic.  But for the hypothetical example of the 12 year old not writing, I would not give up, I would try to find ways to encourage it all the time.  I'd also meet my children where they were at, and accept the fact that for this particular child, acquiring the skill was simply going to take longer, but would be slow and steady.

But learning anything needs a receptive and willing mind.   I do believe that forcing, rather than encouraging, simply is counter-productive.  It wears out both the caregiver and the child, with a ratio of very few good results.  I know for my own children, the best way to shut them down and get a brick wall between us is when I insist on forcing my own agenda on them.  They even do have built-in gimmick detectors.  BUT, there are times in their life when they do have to learn things, and when they know why, and need to apply it, they are more open minded and will do it.

I know for myself in school, that much of what I learned for the purpose of getting a number on a test, and not for my own interest, did little for me long-term.  There were many subjects in school I was passionate about and addicted to, and I didn't even have to write the final exam as the teacher knew that my rubber arm needed no twisting to get any of the concepts - (language arts, social studies, music, etc).

I'll anecdotally recount, there was one subject at school, though, that the adults in my life did FORCE on me.  Looking back as an adult, I am grateful for the thought behind it (i.e. I could see what they were driving at), but on said subject, I still get my defenses up if anything is defined as being "that" subject.   Nor to this day, can I remember any of the specifics of what I learned, even though I took said subject at said grade level 3 times (1 failed 2 passed).  Oddly enough, one of my children loves this subject and I am keen on facilitating their learning for it, and they like it, and don't need my personal expertise on it to learn it.  They learn it because they obsessively research it.

This is a bit long winded, but I hope it provides a bit more information.

Let me counter with a different anecdotal perspective.

 

I taught a writing class. I did insist that the students write (it was, after all, my job!). I usually tried to encourage them to write about things they cared about or were interested in. One young lady tried to refuse, saying she simply had nothing to write about. I told her she HAD to fill a page, no matter what. So she wrote mostly nonsense - what she did that day. In the middle of the page she wrote a few sentences that really stood out. I asked her to expand, and as she talked, I told her THAT was her topic. I literally could see the light bulb turn on. She wrote a beautiful tribute to a sick friend. It was eventually published in a prominent children's magazine.

 

If I had not "pushed", she never would have known that success. She went on to be a stellar writer. After she went on to high school, she still came back to visit me and show me her writings.

 

I think she needed BOTH from me - she needed me to be the adult and to hold her feet to the fire, and she also needed me to be her support system who listened and took an authentic interest in her thoughts and her success.

 

I have other stories like that from students who would not read. They needed encouragement, opportunities, someone or something to spark the interest - and sometimes they needed a PUSH.

 
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November 20, 2006, 12:40 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

Then my question is how did he KNOW to ask about a radius and ulna?

 

And how did he LEARN to read so that you direct him to the book.

 

Some of the subjects I studied and loved in school were ones I wouldn't have picked on my own because I didn't KNOW to want them. Do you have an idea or a plan as to what to what you want to expose your children?

Then my question is how did he KNOW to ask about a radius and ulna?

 

Television?  Discovery Channel?  Animal Planet?  A book with anatomic pictures?  Did the parent mention them?

 

And how did he LEARN to read so that you direct him to the book.

 

My kids learned to read by  me reading to them, and by them asking questions.  Lots of questions.  They don't need formal lessons.  I'm assuming that your kids, even now as toddlers, ask you lots of questions?  That never stops.  And I'm assuming you answer them?

 

Do you have an idea or a plan as to what to what you want to expose your children?

 

I don' thave a plan as to what I want to expose my children to.  They seem to come up with far better ideas on their own.  As thinking, intelligent, human beings naturally do.  Libraries, museums, internet, TV, movies, magazine subscriptions, relatives, friends, car shows, horse shows, campgrounds, etc.  They are like sponges and ask questions on all sorts of things.

 

You seem to think that kids who don't go to school aren't exposed to much, like we lock our kids in the closet or something.  Yes, I'm being facetious here, but you get the point.  Maybe the kid asked what the names of their bones were? Do bones even have names?  That sort of thing.  I know my kids come out with all sorts of questions on the oddest things.  Like why a dark blue balloon is lighter when filled with air.  Why some balloons float and others don't.  Why boats float but cars don't.  Why is the sky blue?  How do they know to ask these questions? 

 

 
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November 20, 2006, 12:41 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

Then my question is how did he KNOW to ask about a radius and ulna?

 

And how did he LEARN to read so that you direct him to the book.

 

Some of the subjects I studied and loved in school were ones I wouldn't have picked on my own because I didn't KNOW to want them. Do you have an idea or a plan as to what to what you want to expose your children?

Thanks for your questions.

Well, I described how my own children got curious about a radius and ulna in another post - a friend broke her arm in one of those 2 bones.  I didn't buy a textbook for it, but if they wanted a book to explore further, I'd not have denied them one.

And as for reading, my children have been learning to read since the very first day their father and I opened books to them and read them to them, ever since my kids for example would just out of the blue say, "I know what the letter s sounds like 'sssssss'. " They notice us have an interest in reading and follow suit.  I know I did before I went to kindergarten.  I learned my abc's in that song that most people learn from tiny up and I'd ask "What does a T sound like?" as do my children.  For example, "Mom, how do you spell child?" "C-H-I-L-D".  "Oh wow, it's got a ch in it just like chip!"... Me: "Yes, any time you want to make the "ch ch" sound that is how you do it.  All kinds of ways these examples are grasped.  And I wouldn't call my kids "gifted"... they are just curious and I answer their questions and point them to connection.  Now, when my younger ask to spell a word that is unfamiliar but I know already contains sounds they've spelled before, I say, "You tell me, and I'll help you"... most of the time they are right and I only need to get them to adjust a letter here or there.

They say, "English is a funny language - Why do 'through' and 'enough' sound different even though the letters are the same?"...  They're constantly exploring.

My 5 year old is learning pretty much the same way.  She asks us to read books with her, but when she knows a word she'll say, "no no I want to read that part!", then she'll proudly read her word.

I expose my children to anything and everything age and developmentally appropriate. And yes, I do also expose my children to ideas and subjects they'd not have thought of as well.  I'm often exposed, myself to things that don't exist in my current train of thought, and pass it on.  There is so much to learn in the world, and the learning goes on and on, even with the parent.

I hope this provides a bit more insight.
 
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November 20, 2006, 12:42 pm PST

Calculus and Trig? In what world?

Quote From: purplepenny

I don't really get it I guess. How does a kid learn calculus or trigonometry this way? (Please don't get defensive, I'm really just trying to understand.)

I think the question might be, how does a kid learn calculus or trigonometry in the average public school when neither is offered? Our schools are more than happy to throw gifted students in 3 consecutive years of basic math. Why would I want the bureaucracy that brought us the DMV in charge of my children's education?

 

In my children's case, they can learn calculus and trig from the highest quality textbooks. It just happens they do so at home. If they need extra help, they can take a class at a local junior college or we can arrange for tutoring from a math major university student. Homeschooling is flexible like that. We do what works. In schools, children receive identical materials and opportunities and make of it what they will. Homeschooled children receive the highest quality education geared specifically toward them and their academic needs.

 

Again, homeschool critics don't want to talk about quantifiable results. If homeschooled children are such failures, why are top-notch universities like Stanford so eagerly accepting them? Most universities have found that homeschooled children make the best students--with high grades, good social abilities, and a love of learning that most people lose sometime in kindergarten.

 
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November 20, 2006, 12:50 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: sneakers145

In our house, radius and ulna come up regularly, along with other anatomical terms.  We frequently have discussions of how the body works.  My kids have seen internal organs of deceased animals for a great visual anatomy lesson.

 

We don't use textbooks.  I find them rather outdated.   With Google at our fingertips, we can get a lot of up to date info.  Look at the recent changes in the planets.  Textbooks for the next 20 years (schools don't buy new textbooks every year) will still say there are 9 planets, not 8, with 3 planetoids.  We're in the information age, with the latest stuff right to our home with the click of the mouse.

 

It's inconceivable that someone in this day and age, with involved parents, would NOT learn to read or write.  Examples strewn about here (not by you, just in general what I'm reading today) imply that without formal instruction, a child won't learn how to string sentences together.  It's not the case.  Kids want to communicate.  There's a need to know at work here.  They need to know, so they're interested in learning.  For some things, maybe they're not interested today, but they will be next week, next month, or even next year.

 

But we go in spurts.  We've touched on a bit of classical music, but haven't really explored it in depth.  Others know more pop culture references than I ever will.  We all have different strengths and weaknesses, but not all weaknesses are debilitating. 

 

I like the way you described this.  This is similar to what we do at our house.  We have several books and magazines on all kinds of things, and the kids do on occasion pick them up to read them, (much in the same fashion they'd pick up a crossword puzzle or word search book), and they look at when it's published and say, "I wonder what life [in Thailand for example] is like now?", then they go to news sites, or google or whatever and explore further.

You are right, I've yet to meet a child that isn't curious (what some people would even call "nosy"), when they see a sign, or (gulp) some graffiti, or the price of something, "Mom, that is a hundred and twenty five dollars, that's too much!" "no, dear its a dollar and twenty five cents, see where that decimal point is (or the numbers written in a smaller font)?".

"Mom, what's a font?.  One question spurs another, until they're tired of being overstimulated, then they do other things.
 
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November 20, 2006, 12:50 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: kleesun

Um, as far as I can tell, the reason so many schools have shared supplies is because there are so many kids who cannot afford to buy their own, and it's a way of making sure everyone has something to use.  Kids don't deserve to be embarrassed for being poor, and it keeps them from stealing other kids' supplies (which happened to me all the time when I was in school and we bought our own).  Personally, I think schools are money-strapped enough and parents should buy at least SOME of their own supplies, but I don't want kids to not have anything to use.

 

I think calling this "Socialist" is a pretty big stretch.  They're just kids.  Besides, it seems like everyone these days is always complaining about how spoiled and selfish are today's children--Heaven forbid they should have to share some crayons!

 

I'm not saying public schools are perfect--been there, done that, have no illusions--but you try teaching 35 kids at once and see if you don't have to a) standardize things and b) teach them to share so they aren't fighting all the time.

Um, as far as I can tell, the reason so many schools have shared supplies is because there are so many kids who cannot afford to buy their own, and it's a way of making sure everyone has something to use.  Kids don't deserve to be embarrassed for being poor, and it keeps them from stealing other kids' supplies (which happened to me all the time when I was in school and we bought our own).  Personally, I think schools are money-strapped enough and parents should buy at least SOME of their own supplies, but I don't want kids to not have anything to use.

 

Um, this is socialism.  Basically parents are being forced to provide supplies for children that aren't theirs.  The children are made to feel bad for having more and do not get to have anything of their own.  If you think that doesn't plant some long term message, then you are mistaken.  Socialism promotes everyone having the same thing.  Anyone who has or wants more is labled negatively.  I am a compassionate person and I would be willing to buy supplies for poor children, but do not FORCE my child or me into "charity" and make my child feel guilty becuase he has Crayola and not the generic brand.  My son was very disappointed when the teacher took all his things! It zapped his enthusiasm for returning to the classroom.  It was his first experience at the public school after having been in private school.  It was the first of  many things that led to me pulling my son out of school.  Many will continue to look at the "common supplies" as something not to worry about, but I assure you it is.

 
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November 20, 2006, 12:51 pm PST

A few thoughts...

Our state does not require testing, but, with our curriculum, we do weekly tests on each subject anyway.

 

I am not against any form of schooling, I feel it is up to the parents to make sure their children get the best education possible for that child.  It's their choice where that child gets that education - and their responsibility to make sure it happens.

 

We simply enjoy doing what we do.  Being with my children is both a joy and a challenge.  While teaching them "book learnin'" we are also teaching them life skills.  For instance, if we do cooking and/or baking together, we are also teaching them science and math.

 

I'm glad to see all of you who are trying to learn more and understand homeschooling.  Just like any public or private school, each and every home school is different.

 
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November 20, 2006, 12:51 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: cmkennedy124

 I am sorry, not to be mean, but I was speaking to the poster named julie. I do not unschool so, please, do not get all huffy with me, please; just because you are not understanding home schooling as a whole. I am a traditional home schooler, hate me or not, that uses books and tests......read my other posts. Please, lets not attack people who were not even speaking to you.

You don't and aren't home schooling....great...but, it's my choice to do so and my kids are learning just fine.

And, if you read my post all the way...you will see that I do not understand unschooling either. Maybe I did not understand you correctly in your post but, it sounds as if you are against home schooling as a whole.
I see you didn't bother to read my VERY FIRST line in which I pointed out I wasn't talking directly at you. I was talking about something you posted. I see I wasted my time even typing that.

And if you bother to read any of my past posts you would see that I am considering home schooling my own daughter.


 
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November 20, 2006, 12:54 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: cmkennedy124

 I am sorry, not to be mean, but I was speaking to the poster named julie. I do not unschool so, please, do not get all huffy with me, please; just because you are not understanding home schooling as a whole. I am a traditional home schooler, hate me or not, that uses books and tests......read my other posts. Please, lets not attack people who were not even speaking to you.

You don't and aren't home schooling....great...but, it's my choice to do so and my kids are learning just fine.

And, if you read my post all the way...you will see that I do not understand unschooling either. Maybe I did not understand you correctly in your post but, it sounds as if you are against home schooling as a whole.
Please read the first line of my post that you took so much offense to:

"(I know you just showed us what you found, so this isn't directed at you, it's just a comment in general)"
 
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