Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

Okay, I think there must be some communication break down.

Ok!  first, in regards to the government serving the people.....the emphasis was on the word "YOU" , as far as, "the government serving the people....  meaning, it serves the people, as a WHOLE, not "YOU" or ME, as an individual. 

I never said anything about "you" or "me".

Second,  the reason I do not think Hitler should be used as an example for this topic in banning homeschooling, is because MORE importantly Hitler killed over 6,000,000 Jews - something I’m far more concerned about!!!!!!!!!!!

Or course Hitler did many evil things including the Holocaust. It was a terrible event that will always be mourned worldwide.

But I don't understand your point. Why should the Holocaust be the only thing we are allowed to discuss when the topic turns to Hitler.

It's a very valid point.

He banned homeschooling.

You want to ban homeschooling.

Third, I love this country, I have served in the military, for this country,

I am very glad you love our great country and I thank you for your military service. 

 and I take great PRIDE in the freedoms, the men and women before us, who lost their lives have given us.

As do I. By the way, my husband is active duty Army with 15 years of service under his belt. He could retire in 5 years but he will not. He chooses to max out in the Army and push to 30 years of service. He does this because he believes in our country. He believes in protecting our freedoms and the freedom of those who cannot protect themselves. He has left our family twice for one year deployments. The first was Korea and the second was Iraq. Since his return from Iraq, one and a half years ago,  he has trained privates who will be fighting in the war immediately upon their graduation from basic training.

You do not need to lecture me on cherishing our freedom. My husband is willing to die for freedom and we support his decision to serve our country and President.

maybe you should visit Germany yourself, to understand the difference.

I never suggested anyone move to Germany. Why do you? I may at some point move to Germany however as our Army has military installations there.

Lastly, the intent of the Facts I told from the CBS news report, was in responding to a post from my message, someone asked for me to put in some info about what was on the report.  this was some of the info!

Yes I understand that.

It was you that originally brought the article to the message board though, was it not?

What was your intent in posting the article?

I never said Hitler outlawed homeschooling in the entire world.

I said he outlawed homeschooling in Germany.

Understanding the arguments or advantages to both sides of this subject, I would like to introduce to you my family's school.  My 2 daughters attend a school in Jacksonville, Florida that is part in-class training and part home school.  It is called Harvest Community School.  We have certified teachers that write our lesson plans and send them home on Mondays.  The parents know what their children are doing on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the classroom, then on Thursday, the parents step in as the teacher.  Our students DO NOT get behind like what may happen in a total schooling scenario when parents are not always involved because we know right away when our child does not understand a concept.  Our children ARE NOT deprived of socialization because they attend school 3 days a week, have sports and extra curricular activities after school.  It is a parent teacher partnership in raising moral and intelligent children.  We are considered a private school and currently have preschool 3 years through 9th grade and are adding another grade each year.  We definitely have the best of both worlds. 

Whoops! I missed one.

WE DO NOT live in a dictatorship

I never said we did.

If you would please read my posts. I'm sorry if I'm not clear enough in my posts but I thought I was. Here is what I said, " The court has declared you have no right to override the public school. What's worse is there are people, such as yourself, who believe all children should attend public school. Reminds me a bit of dictatorship." 

If the government forces  it's citizens to a building and has complete authority over what is taught there it is like a dictatorship.

I have been homeschooling for 7 years now. I am proud to say my kids are intelligent, well- rounded,  and socially aware. I have never understood the socialization debate. My girls do spend alot of time with me, but they see what it takes to be a wife and mother as well as learning academics to earn a living in this world. I do teach all the required things and then some. I want them to know what being a real success in this world is- and it's not the high profile job, the million dollar house, or the car they drive. It's about who they are as a person and being a good citizen.Yes, you have to be smart to make it in this world, but there are sooo many other things we need to teach these kids besides reading and math. College does not guarantee a child will be "successful". What kind of person you teach them to be will. My kids learn responsibilty, cooperation, and family unity. They are polite and respectful. They are around plenty of kids their age in our homeschool groups and church as well as kids of all ages. I love the fact that they are already out  in the world every day and not shut in a class room 8 or more hours  and then come home to three hours of homework.  They do their schoolwork, help with household chores, and participate in many community events. It may not be for everyone, as it does take a lot of work and dedication, and some kids like going to school to be with friends and learning is not foremost on their minds. Every family is different. I know moms and dads who work outside the home and still homeschool. Their kids are doing fine. I don't see the public schools as the enemy, but they sure lack in alot of areas that I think are vital if you truly want your kid to "succeed" in the world. It makes me sad to hear parents say that a superior education is the most important thing we can do for them. Yes, important, but surely not the most important!  Teach them how to love, respect, forgive, honor, and put things in life in the proper order-  God, family, others, community. Now you have a success story.  That is what homeschooling has done for my family. I have found that to be the norm in alot of homeschoolers.  Anything worthwhile is going to take work. I do not have a college degree, as most of my homeschooling friends do not, yet our children are exceeding in their learning. We are accountable to our county at the end of each year to show progress. I know public school teachers who are  pulling their kids out of the system. What does that tell you? Any parent is able to homeschool their child.  Alot of times I find myself learning right along side of them.  Not one day have I regretted the decision. So many of the negative things I have read about homeschooling are so over the top and unfounded. If done right and for the right reasons, homeschooling is a fun, positive, character- building experience that I'm glad my girls are experiencing. They want to be homeschooled right through high school.  There are soo many resources out there for parents- you are not on your own!  They can still participate in sports at the local HS, they have proms and dances, as well as graduation trips. There is no reason to stop once they reach 9th grade!  Most people do not have fond memories of high school anyway!  The peer pressure, trendy fashions, and wanting to fit in alone distracts from any true learning! My girls have plenty of TRUE friends, do many fun things outside the home ( they are not shut-ins as I have read some people believe of homeschoolers!) and are on their way to being great citizens and good people. If that is all I taught them, then I am happy, but I am proud to say they are smart academically to boot. Yes, I feel confident that I'm doing what's best for my girls.

I've read through, with interest, the majority of the posts on this subject.  I also watched the show.  Here are a few of my thoughts on the issue:

Someone commented on the importance of socializing with same age kids as preparation for life.  I don't know about others, but I have not socialized with a group of people the same age since I left high school.  I think socializing with different age groups is far more indicative of what kids will encounter in their adult life.

Dr Phil often refers to the fact that children's brains are not fully developed until they are 20 or 21(? not sure of the exact age).  Why would I want my child to have to learn to deal with bullies, etc. with an impressionable, immature brain?  Surely, she'll be better equipped to handle that when her brain is fully (or nearly fully) mature.

I actually have 2 kids.  One was homeschooled until she was 9, went to private school until she was 11, tried public school when she was 12, and is now back to homeschooling.  The other has been in public school since kindergarten and wouldn't want to homeschool!  She loves her school!  They are very different people and have different needs.  My homeschooler was unschooled until she was 9 and it was great, but I didn't have to work outside the home during those years.  When I had to start working, she went to a small private school that focused on child lead learning.  Then, when her dad could not contribute financially to her education anymore (he paid 1/2 the tuition), she went to public school ( I was still working).  She also wanted to try jr. high.  She hated jr. high.  She felt alienated and had a hard time making friends (the cliques were already formed in elementary school).  So, now we are homeschooling again.  This time around we are doing a more structured approach because I'm still working (albeit part-time) and feel I can't provide the optimum unschooling environment for her.  We actually homeschool through a public charter school now.  For those that have questions about her academic ablility...  She is at grade level in math (pre-algebra, her least favorite subject).  A bit over a year ahead in science, social studies, and language arts (grammar and writing), and a full 3 years ahead in her reading and comprehension skills.  This is according to CA state standards for 7th grade (she was tested upon entering the public charter school to tailor her curriculum).

My husband teaches Earth science at the high school level.  I know all too well that there are many kids who need to go to public school, if for no other reason than to get away from home for a precious few hours everyday.  The reality is, there are parents who should NOT homeschool (luckily, most of those parents wouldn't want to anyway)!  I agree with most of the people on the board (I think!) that there should be a choice of schooling options and the opportunity to school your children based upon their individual needs.

Lastly, let's not forget, 'Dr Phil' is a TV show.  TV shows must get good ratings to stay on the air when they are on a national network.  For the most part, the show needs to have guests with more 'extreme' viewpoints or lifestyles to keep the show interesting for the average viewer.  Us 'moderates' would probably be boring, and not offer the viewing public the gasps and outrages they have come to desire.  I love the Dr Phil show, but it's still a 'show'.  However, that being said, it would have been nice to have at least one moderate, experienced homeschooler up on the stage.  Also, just my opinion, but I believe no one should homeschool out of fear or overprotection.

Meghan

Historically, the Lutheran denomination had a strong influence on German culture, including its education. Martin Luther advocated compulsory schooling and this idea became a model for schools throughout Germany.

During the 18th century, the Kingdom of Prussia was among (if not) the first countries in the world to introduce free and generally compulsory primary education, comprising of an eight-year course of primary education, Volksschule. It provided not only the skills needed in an early industrialized world (reading, writing, and arithmetics), but also a strict education in ethics, duty, discipline, and obedience. Affluent children often went on to attend preparatory private schools for an additional four years, but the general population had virtually no access to secondary education.

In 1810, after the Napoleonic wars, Prussia introduced state certification requirements for teachers, which significantly raised the standard of teaching. The final examination, Abitur, was introduced in 1788, implemented in all Prussian secondary schools by 1812, and extended to all of Germany in 1871.

When the German Empire was formed in 1871, the school system became more centralized. As learned professions demanded well-educated young people, more secondary schools were established, and the state claimed the sole right to set standards and to supervise the newly established schools.

Four different types of secondary schools developed:

• A nine-year classical Gymnasium (focusing on Latin and Greek or Hebrew, plus one modern language)
• A nine-year Realgymnasium (focusing on Latin, modern languages, science and mathematics)
• A six-year Realschule (without university entrance qualification, but with the option of becoming a trainee in one of the modern industrial, office or technical jobs) and
• A nine-year Oberrealschule (focusing on modern languages, science and mathematics)

By the turn of the 20th century, the four types of schools had achieved equal rank and privilege, although they did not have equal prestige. In 1872, Prussia recognized the first separate secondary schools for girls.

After World War I, the Weimar Republic established a free, universal 4-year elementary school (Grundschule). Most students continued at these schools for another 4-year course and those who were able to pay a small fee went on to an Intermediate school (Mittelschule) that provided a more challenging curriculum for an additional one or two years. Upon passing a rigorous entrance exam after year 4, students could also enter one of the four types of secondary school.

During the Nazi era (1933-1945), indoctrination of Nazi ideologies was added to student education, however, the basic education system remained unchanged.

After World War II, the Allied powers (Soviet Union, France, Britain, and the USA) saw to it that the Nazi ideas were eliminated from the curriculum. They installed educational systems in their respective occupation zones that reflected their own ideas. When West Germany gained partial independence in 1949, its new constitution (Grundgesetz) granted educational autonomy to the state (Länder) governments. This led to a widely varying landscape of school systems, often making it difficult for children to continue schooling whilst moving between states.

I see that Germany and the true history of public, forced schooling has been brought up on this forum.  I thought I'd add a basic overview.  Forced public schooling with no rights as parents to question the actions of the government in charge of the schools is VERY SCARY.  It definitely does not align with living in a free democratic society.