Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

Wow! Talk about taking something out of context! Here is the post you were referring to ....

Assume the very worst case scenario. You got to the point where you decided you wanted to be an english teacher but had not bothered with English skills. What then? Is the dream over? From watching unschooled kids and older self-directed learners what happens (with them at least) is they simply go out and get the skills they need. Then they pursue the dream. Would you have really looked at your lack of English and decided it was an insurmountable obstacle? I really doubt it.

My response:

It depends on the degree to which I was lacking the skills. If my parents let me get to adulthood without being able to so much as read a newspaper, I'd be pretty pissed with them. If I couldn't construct a sentence or communicate effectively because I preferred to chase butterflies, I would say my parents had failed to do their jobs as parents.

Now I realize that is most likely not the case with your children or other "unschooled" children, but if you are going to ask me how bad is the worse case scenario, I think the worst case scenario is rather frightening.

I find it rather disingenuous to cherry pick one statement out of context and use it to paint an inaccurate picture.

It's not just the matter of spelling. She didn't even get it when I corrected it! She wanted it sent out to parents and assumed they would understand her meaning. She was a nice lady in many ways, but she was in deep denial about her own lack of skills.

But without willing, dedicated parents, it's not going to work.

I agree. I also don't think traditional schooling has a great shot at succeeding without dedicated, willing parents.

All I was saying before was that the unschooled kids I know are not getting any education at all. Their parents aren't doing anything to provoke learning or expose instances to learn.

Then why don't you report them for educational neglect and let the 'experts' decide?   There may be mitigating circumstances, ie the kids are autistic, special needs, etc.  And not every kid (public, private, homeschool, or unschool) is going to be 'advanced.'

Where are these true homeschool failures?  I'd wager they're extremely rare.  But these failures are touted as being 'high' and that the kids are 'behind'.  To me it's the proverbial straw man scare tactics to convince those parents on the fence that maybe, just maybe, they should leave education to the professionals.

As far as those here wanting homeschoolers to be forced to take standardized testing, even private schools in my state are exempt from these.  It speaks to the fact that private schools have a different agenda than public (ie Catholic Schools).  Many homeschoolers chose to homeschool for the fact that schools are now so geared to 'teach to the test' and test scores are so highly over-emphasized.  I applaud the 10th grade students who purposely threw the test to make their point.  The emphasis on testing is ridiculous, and for all of the purported raising the standards and no child left behind, the truly intelligent students and gifted students are the ones falling through the cracks. 

There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all education.  Our schools are geared toward the middle ground.  Special Ed gets its share of the money, but the smart students are bored out of their minds and labeled ADHD. 

Actually, hardly any of the men who founded our country were Christian. Most were deists and unitarians. If you are home schooling your kids I would hope you would teach them actual facts.

Here is a link to a list of the self-professed religions of the founding fathers. Note that they are all some form of Christian denomination. One says he is Episcopalian and Deist, but lists Episcopalian first. The only Unitarians are Unitarian Congregationalists, a Protestant denomination. This is what they actually called themselves, not the opinion of a historian born 200 years later.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html#Declaration 

I do teach actual facts. Apparently the public schools do not?

All I was saying before was that the unschooled kids I know are not getting any education at all. Their parents aren't doing anything to provoke learning or expose instances to learn.

Then why don't you report them for educational neglect and let the 'experts' decide?   There may be mitigating circumstances, ie the kids are autistic, special needs, etc.  And not every kid (public, private, homeschool, or unschool) is going to be 'advanced.'

Where are these true homeschool failures?  I'd wager they're extremely rare.  But these failures are touted as being 'high' and that the kids are 'behind'.  To me it's the proverbial straw man scare tactics to convince those parents on the fence that maybe, just maybe, they should leave education to the professionals.

As far as those here wanting homeschoolers to be forced to take standardized testing, even private schools in my state are exempt from these.  It speaks to the fact that private schools have a different agenda than public (ie Catholic Schools).  Many homeschoolers chose to homeschool for the fact that schools are now so geared to 'teach to the test' and test scores are so highly over-emphasized.  I applaud the 10th grade students who purposely threw the test to make their point.  The emphasis on testing is ridiculous, and for all of the purported raising the standards and no child left behind, the truly intelligent students and gifted students are the ones falling through the cracks. 

There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all education.  Our schools are geared toward the middle ground.  Special Ed gets its share of the money, but the smart students are bored out of their minds and labeled ADHD. 

Now I realize that is most likely not the case with your children or other "unschooled" children, but if you are going to ask me how bad is the worse case scenario, I think the worst case scenario is rather frightening.

And just where are these frightening examples of horrifically under-educated unschoolers and homeschoolers?  Surely if they are that plentiful you should have examples. 

And I'd also wager that those homeschooled kids who entered your classroom 'behind' (as they obviously weren't following the same curriculum) caught up fairly quickly?  I'm not saying making the honor roll, but I doubt they flunked out, either.

My homeschooled niece and nephew who were loosely following a curriculum entered a private religious high school known for its advanced academics when they were a freshman and sophomore respectively.  Both caught on quickly and made As and Bs.  Another kid I know was pulled from school after second grade and went back for 6th.  Same thing.  Did well after a month.

And I don't need to imagine the worst case scenarios for public school graduates.  I've met a lot of them over the years.

purplepenny wrote:

Actually, hardly any of the men who founded our country were Christian. Most were deists and unitarians. If you are home schooling your kids I would hope you would teach them actual facts.

I'd ask you to define "Christian."  Do you mean professing Jesus as a personal savior, or do you mean having a world view that a Creator god created men equal and endowed them with unalienable rights like life and liberty? Because nearly all of our founding fathers held the "Christian" view of the latter; and as for the former, the personal journals and diaries of Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, John Jay and many others at the time of our founding will attest to a personal faith. The claim of "hardly any" is just wrong.

Even deists believe a god exists and Unitarians go so far as to say God created the world, even if he isn't personally involved.  The "actually" part is that deists and Unitarians were in the minority until the years after the War of Independence.  It was, in large part, not until the Continental Army received military help from the French that deist ideas of enlightenment took root.  

I didn't say it was statisticaly unsuccessful, did I? Why all the straw man arguments? I said it was statistically flawed.

You can argue with the homeschool test scores, but Stanford doesn't.

Now I realize that is most likely not the case with your children or other "unschooled" children, but if you are going to ask me how bad is the worse case scenario, I think the worst case scenario is rather frightening.

And just where are these frightening examples of horrifically under-educated unschoolers and homeschoolers?  Surely if they are that plentiful you should have examples. 

And I'd also wager that those homeschooled kids who entered your classroom 'behind' (as they obviously weren't following the same curriculum) caught up fairly quickly?  I'm not saying making the honor roll, but I doubt they flunked out, either.

My homeschooled niece and nephew who were loosely following a curriculum entered a private religious high school known for its advanced academics when they were a freshman and sophomore respectively.  Both caught on quickly and made As and Bs.  Another kid I know was pulled from school after second grade and went back for 6th.  Same thing.  Did well after a month.

And I don't need to imagine the worst case scenarios for public school graduates.  I've met a lot of them over the years.