Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

I wanted to say that whether or  not a substantial difference between private and public schools is noted has much to do with one's location.  It is not fair to say that the only difference is cost.  I am a certified teacher who has one child in private school which does offer religion as well.  He does very well, mostly A's, some B's.  This is in a classroom of 12 students.  Respect is expected, and parental support and reinforcement is high.  My son has made a complete turn-around in responsibility and attitude since having started there almost two years ago after leaving a VERY different public school setting.

On the other hand, I have another who I now homeschool, having resigned my position to do so, as it was apparent for now that he was not succeeding in the school environment.  Every child has different needs, and although I agree that there are some parents who should not be home schooling, they are still the parents and responsible for that choice.  It is unfortunate that some suffer and eventually end up back in public school--I have seen that happen. 

I disagree with the statement that home schooling does not provide responsibility or respect for deadlines.  It is solely the structure that is provided by the home schooling parent.  I for one, can testify to the fact that a very structured curriculum is followed, and he is held accountable for his timely work.  I think many people have misconceptions about home schooling.  What a wonderful opportunity to get to know your kids!  The reason that many home schoolers stop their days by lunch is that if they are following a curriculum similar to that of the public school system and their child is quick to understand, they need to stop, or they would be done by CHRISTMAS!  As a public school teacher, I can tell you that I absolutely DID cater to each child's maximum potential regardless of difficulty or disability, but in order to do that, things needed to move more slowly than they may at home if your home schooler understands quickly.  That is not to say that others sat bored--they were given enrichment and extension projects, but CONTENT could not move forward much until the "no child left behind' responsibility was met.  Public schools have art, recess, gym, lunch, computer time, music, and many other 'filler' type activities.  We home school until lunch, and it is hit hard.  After that, we involve ourselves in a local home school group who sponsors outings, band, science projects, art, home school PE at the Y, etc.  SOOOOO, technically then, our day is as long as many days in public school.  Additionally, there are many other aspects to an education, and this setting enables me to be the one who models much of that for my child.  He interacts SO much with others now that he doesn't feel one bit isolated, and is thriving in this setting.  He has advanced more in the last month at home than in the last four at school.

Sorry to be so WINDY!!  I just feel so strongly that one must inform oneself before passing judgment, or stereotyping based on a few cases of poor enforcement of decisions.  I don't regret one bit my decision, and am evern contemplating pulling my other one in, as he begs daily, seeing that learning can be so hands-on and FUN--

I think she is referring to the Stanford Binet standardized tests.

The results of the tests are not skewed (not that I am aware of). What is skewed is statistical data using the test scores to compare schooling methods.

Give me a few minutes and I'll explain further.

It would have been nice to view a Dr Phil show where he had homeschoolers as well as unschooled. There is a difference.  I also would like to add that many home educators are required to test and report to the states public schools. It depends on the laws in place for each state. Also there are internet schools that parents are using to educate their children, many of these schools are considered private schools and not home schooled although the children are at home.

I keep reading posts which say something similar to, "why are all homeschool parents so defensive?". Well, if you honestly take a look at this forum you will understand.

Allow me to take the defensive for a bit.

I want to see some proof. I keep reading things like, "Many homeschoolers.....(something negative)." I want to see some examples. I can post study after study showing homeschoolers far exceed the public school students. I would LOVE to see a study which shows the opposite. If there really are so many bad homeschoolers then why isn't it plastered all over the media? It is quite obvious that mainstream media is set against homeschooling.

I'll tell you, if Dr. Phil could have found an actual study showing homeschooling was negatively impacting the children he would have shared. You can bet money on that.  But he couldn't find one. So, what did he choose instead? He chose the most radically extreme unschooling family he could find and attempted to paint them as the norm. There were many wonderful homeschoolers which applied for the show. They were not chosen and this was for a very specific reason.

Let's be honest here, homeschooling works. If it didn't there wouldn't be so many wonderful examples of success. If it didn't work there would be many examples of it's failure. I'm sure many of you have tried, without success, to find "dirt" on homeschoolers to use on this forum. Didn't find any, did you?

So, please, let's get to the actual issue at hand. There is no reason for all this blind debate with statements thrown about dressed as facts.

I have some questions for those opposed to homeschooling. Do you realize there are an estimated 1.1 million homeschoolers in America? (According to the National Center for Educational Statistics) Do you really believe another 1.1 million students would fit into the already overcrowded public school system?

Numerous studies have shown students do much better with one on one interraction with their teacher. Luckily homeschoolers have this opportunity. However, public schooled students do not. Many parents choose to homeschool and as a result lighten the burden on the public school system. Aren't you happy about this?

those who are promoting home schooling seem to be denying the fact that there are kids who are failed horridly in a home school environment.

No one denies that. Every method has its failures. I would argue that homeschooling has statistically fewer. It's difficult to fail when you have the person who cares most about the child's education and knows them best (the parent) selecting teaching methods and materials that perfectly suit the student. There are failures, certainly, but they are few and well-publicized.

I am just already bored with this conversation because those who are promoting home schooling seem to be denying the fact that there are kids who are failed horridly in a home school environment.

And I'm bored, too.  Show us these failures, please.

And I'm not defensive about homeschooling or even radical unschooling.  I'm a radical unschooler and readily admit that, and have been living joyfully and peacefully with my children for 12 years.  But you won't find failures amongst the true radical unschoolers, as these are the parents who are not only interested in their children's learning, but their overall emotional health and happiness.  Goes far beyond the scope of this debate board, but is discussed in prior posted links.

The 'failures' I think many are touting as proof are from parents who tried and it didn't work 'for them' and their family, not that homeschooling doesn't work.  Those are the ones that re-enter the school system.  Find the ones who graduated from their respective homeschools and have failed to become gainfully employed, living separately from their parents, and are not productive members of society.  Where are these failures?

"Go public?" No one stays a child forever. We all have to hit real life eventually. Where are all of these homeschool failures? If they make up sucha  proprtion of the hoemschooled population, there must be millions. Yet we rarely hear of one.

And, no, they don't all go to Stanford. But most or many go to college, and Stanford is merely one of the more notable universities that prefers homeschooled students. Just one of many--most universities that have any experience with homeschoolers prefer them.

The goal is to prepare children for life, right? And no one disputes that a college education is a good start on an adult life. If colleges, especially really good ones, find that homeschoolers are excelling academically and civically, isn't that a good indication that (as a whole) the method is successful?

As for purported skewed test scores, I believe they were compiled from a group of homeschoolers that offered to have them put in the mix before the children were tested. A blind sample. I can tell you that among the children in my homeschool groups--maybe 200 children in all--I would be shocked if they were below the 85th percentile quote. These are kids that play chess and discuss archaeological preservation methods for fun at sleepovers.

Schools also have their ways of skewing results as well. Parents can and do opt out of them. Many schools will move to classify a low performer as whatever category no longer has to test. Again, my father is a teacher, and this is from his own report. I have seen it as well with one of my older stepchildren. He was doing great but bugged out on tests, and that was what his school found the most important.

People get defensive when they are attacked, period. If you tell someone they are harming their child when they know that their child is getting a superior education, they'll argue. If that's defensive, well, I guess every parent is defensive.

I am just already bored with this conversation because those who are promoting home schooling seem to be denying the fact that there are kids who are failed horridly in a home school environment.

Or that anyone could possibly be successful in a public school! The defensiveness is palpable...I wonder why? I know of no great movement to end homeschooling.

Anyway, here's the deal with the statistics....

When conducting any statistical study, one of the most important goals is to have CONTROL. It is very difficult to have control in studies dealing with education because humans are complex and it is impossible to know all the variables that may contribute to success much less control them.  Some of the factors that are considered important are social and economic. Here is a breakdown of what homeschoolers look like in terms of socio-economic data. Now I realize these numbers are compiles from voluntary research, but I have no reason to consider them suspect.

97% of homeschool students come from two parent families. The average for everyone else is roughly 50%

79% have two or fewer children

about 90% of fathers in homeschooling families have better than a high school education as opposed to 50% nationally

about 88% of homeschooling mothers have better than a high school education as opposed to 51% nationally

70% of homeschooling families have an income above $40K as opposed to 42% nationally

1 out of every 4 homeschooled students has a certified teacher as a parent

76% of homeschooling families are SAHM vs. 30% of the population

SO, the ONLY way to do any kind of accurate comparison is to have a control group of traditionally schooled students who are comprised of the same socio-economic factors. Otherwise, we can't say that homeschooling itself accounts for the test scores or if it is any of or a combination of other factors. There are other factors such as race and religion that I did not list (No point in opening a whole new can of worms) or that the researchers may not have considered.

That does not take anything away from the test scores of the homeschooled students, it would just more accurately affect any comparison. Homeschool students seem likely to come from stable, successful, somewhat affluent families. Public schools take and test everyone.