Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

No, what is misunderstood is very common.  People think that the amount taken from their checks represents the amount paid for the year.  It does not.

 

The example you gave was not even equal in income.  That is NOT what she was referring to, She doesn't understand withholding, like so many .  This is how ridiculous rumors are spread - very much like the ones about homeschooling.  People are so naive and believe what they hear from others without ever looking into something themselves, then they form an opinion, then they share the wacked opinion.  That is how we have so many wage-earners who haven't a clue that the withholding is just an advance payment on the tax they owe for the year.

I never said that my dual income house generates more income dollar for dollar.  I simply was making a general point about taxes.  Most dual income families are taxed more heavily regardless of the amount of income.  This is a fact.

 

No, this is a myth. Too many posters have shown you the faulty logic you are using for me to reiterate it all.  Families are taxed according to their income...it doesn't matter if one or both spouses are earning that income.

 

The "benefits" for stay at home Moms I have posted before.  First, quite a few stores and restaurants in my area give discounts during the week- $10 haircuts Tuesdays from 9-10, extra 10% on Wednesdays...stuff like that.  A working parent cannot utilize any of that.  Also, the community colleges who host child activities (and sometimes the Y) give discounts to Moms for their involvement based on days they attend.  Most are weekday mornings.  Utility companies (mainly for low income) give up to 20% on the bill if you qualify. 

 

That's it? That's the best you've got? THAT is what gets your panties in a knot?? Good grief, Kira, you must be EXHAUSTED wasting all that energy figuring out how you are being taken by an unfair world clearly based on a giant conspiracy to stick it to working Moms!

 

Businesses offer discounts during their slower times to drum up business. It has NOTHING to to with SAHMs or homeschoolers. In my area, these are mainly aimed at seniors. If a WM had a job with different hours (and many do) they would also be eligible for these discounts. My Y offers no discount and we use it quite frequently. I guess I could get angry that a family of six might benefit more as they pay the same family membership price as my family of four, but I'm just not that petty.

 

Furthermore, many WORKING people (including Moms) get benefits that SAHMs don't. My husband gets lots of freebies and promotional gifts from clients. When I was a teacher, there were discounts at many businesses. Barnes and Noble gives discounts to teachers and adult students for materials related to learning (easy to justify). People who work at, say theme parks, get lots of free passes - not exactly chump change. People in retail often get discounts where they work. If you are going to get out your measuring stick, at least be fair and look at the WHOLE picture. Any haircut discount a SAHM might be able to take advantage of does not come close to a daycare tax write-off.

 

 For now, we are happy and you are right....I don't need a validation for using public school just some respect for making a good choice for my kids. 

 

Yes, you do emanate happiness. I have come to learn that your need for respect is a bottomless black hole. Seriously, Kira, take a deep breath....you and I agree that the pot shots at public schools and parents who use them have been uncalled for and cheap. Let's not counter with cheap shots at homeschoolers....this round-about way of bringing welfare into the issue of homeschooling is pointless and without credibility. You know people who abuse welfare, I know working Moms who abuse daycare and abuse the goodwill of the school by assuming the school is nothing more than free daycare. Such is life....let's not paint everyone with such a broad brush.

Wow!  Are people really that ignorant?  What do they think tax returns are?

 

How would anyone know how much witholding someone else has anyway?  I don't recall ever discussing that with anyone. 

 

Guess I was unclear... I have heard complaints about the marginal tax rate and my thought was that it was twisted into a belief that taxes are at a higher rate for dual income families.  Marginal tax rate is important to understand so that you can really know how much more after tax money you will have with a raise or 2nd or 3rd income or whatever.  So, I know that if I get a job offer at 50k more than I make now, it will be taxed at my marginal rate, lets say 30%,  so I know that I will only realize 35k.  I could then make a more informed decision about accepting the position.  The first 50k in my household would not be taxed nearly as heavily because of deductions and the graduated rate system. 

 

Sadly, I think you are right that people believe things they hear regardless of the source, or get things twisted because they don't really understand.  And yes it definitely happens with homeschooling.  I am amazed at things I hear people say about homeschool that are simply not true. 

 

BTW, I'm not trying to give you a tax lesson, I'm sure you know way more than I.  I was just trying to clarify where I think the rumor started, or was twisted or whatever.  Honestly, I think anyone can better get this info from wikipedia than from me. 

 

I never before heard someone claim that dual income is taxed more heavily than one before, and am shocked it has become an issue here.  It's so crazy.  Homeschool families pay taxes like everyone else and don't get a break for it.  Not that I think we should, it just seems to me that it shouldn't even be an issue.

 

 

 My main point was we pay into our school sysytem in the way of taxes for two incomes and property taxes entitles me (so to speak) to use the public school system.  Another poster accused me of abusing the system and I was simply defending myself

 

Just for the record .. I don't consider using public school when you can afford private abusing the system . I was just trying to make a point. Trying to get you to look at things in a different way by pointing out that some wealthy people feel they shouldn't have to pay for our kids to attend public school anymore than you should have to pay for your friend to stay home with her kids. Also, that since her family pays into the system she feels entitled... the same way you feel entitled. I know you don't agree and that is fine. I just wanted to clear that up.

What's the deal?  Does everyone live under the erronous assumption that life is fair?  Get back to reality people.  Life isn't fair.  Never has been and never will be.  We simply try our best to get as close to it as possible.  I could find reasons to complain all day about how my circumstances make life unfair for me such as middle income families get screwed when it comes to college funds and gee, there aren't any fancy private schools in my area with the best of the best, and I couldn't afford them if there were.  So does that put my kids at a slight disadvantage?  Yes, and that's life.  I just want them to know, life isn't always fair, take your lumps when you have to , try to make the world a better place then it was before you came into it and above all, don't whine about what you don't have, feel blessed with what you do have.  If you see a need and feel compelled to improve upon it, do so with honesty and integrity.  I am a teacher and believe me, I have opinions about homeschooling, but ultimately, there are a lot of parents who do a lot of things wrong and a lot of things right so let parents beware.  You can either, be open minded and perhaps learn something as a parent or shut yourself down to everything else and hope your kids don't hate you when they grow up and realize you could have done much better for them.  In the mean time, everyone should ask themselves this, am I raising my kids to be intelligent, loving, generous people?  Am I preparing them for a world they will encounter whether I like that world or not?  Am I teaching them social norms and how to survive and prosper?  Am I showing them how to use all of their gifts and be willing to explore things they don't understand?  Those are the important things.  And by the way, if you're really closed-minded, you'll likely answer yes to everything because you rarely think you're wrong.  The rest of us, always have places to improve.

You know, that's why I became a SAHM..to save $2.16 on my haircuts...I'm making out like a BANDIT!

<<<Wow!  Are people really that ignorant?  What do they think tax returns are?>>>They don't.  Usually, this is an arena they feel is too complicated to consider.  So they ignore it.

 

<<< it was twisted into a belief that taxes are at a higher rate for dual income families.>>>  That is true WHEN AND IF the total of the two incomes exceed the total of the one income.

 

<<<Marginal tax rate is important to understand so that you can really know how much more after tax money you will have with a raise or 2nd or 3rd income or whatever. >>> To figure this, just add the one income to the one estimated income and subtract your deductions, then look at the tax tables.  In the case of a raise, just look at the new adjusted gross income amount on the tax table and look under your status (m/s/HH).  Sometimes an additional few dollars earned can put you into another tax bracket.  The higher your income bracket, the higher your rate of tax.  What rich folks do is shelter their income in various ways.  The lower the income, the lower the tax bracket.  There is one table for family income, no matter how many earners there are.  There is another table for single folks and then yet another for those who qualify for head of household status.

 

I don't calculate marginal for any reason, but I understand what you are saying because my husband figures his withholding by multiplying the amount times 30% and subtracting the 30%.  It comes out pretty close to take-home pay.  Again, the discussion was not take home pay or withholding, the poster thinks that if 2 people within the family bring in the income then they pay more tax than one person bringing in the family's income.  The only thing she is correct about is to say that the dual income family pays in more through withholding...but then she gets it back at the end of the year and that is what she's not taking into account.

 

I only consider actual numbers when doing taxes but when you have to assume or budget for an outcome, you do it the same way except you guess at the income.  If you know your income for the year, why would you do the "marginal method" if you know how to do the actual method.  KWIM?  I don't always know what the new year's tax rules will be but it's always pretty safe to use the current year's rules when you are budgeting.  The marginal method as you call it does not separate federal tax from social security and federal disability.  Some people consider those a tax and it is worked into the method my husband uses but it's not true that we pay 30% tax - it just works out on his check that way because of withholding.  That is a big confusion that leads people to misunderstand.

 

<<<The first 50k in my household would not be taxed nearly as heavily because of deductions and the graduated rate system. >>>  The first 50K would not be taxed as high because it would be the ONLY 50K.  When you add income to that 50k, it increases the tax owed - leave the deductions part out of it.  The only consideration given to "deductions" is the fact that if two people are earning that 50K then they DID have higher deductions that reduced their paychecks...but they will get a bigger refund check because they paid in more - they OVERPAID more than the single income family who earned the same income.  It's hard to explain/teach via message board, lol.

 

<<<I never before heard someone claim that dual income is taxed more heavily than one before, and am shocked it has become an issue here. >>> I've heard it so often that I have a worksheet to explain it!  If you total the taxes deducted from two $500.00 a week checks and then total the taxes deducted from one $500.00  a week check - you'll see.  There is a bigger deduction and a smaller take-home pay for the dual income.  STILL - it works out to be the same on April 15th.  So, if  a dual income wants a smaller refund check then all they have to do is adjust their withholding and they will bring home a larger check each pay period.  It is set-up this way because of situations like divorce and to insure that people don't have to monitor their tax situation throughout the year to avoid underpayment penalties.  You would rather over-pay and get the refund than to underpay because you will get a penalty for underpayment.

 

I don't think anyone could get this understanding from Wikipedia, a tax class is really the only way to understand it.  I hope my straight-talk helped at least one person understand it better.  :)

 

I found this little gem today and just had to share.

http://www.homeschoolchristian.com/Position/AngelaPaul.html

 

April 13, 2099
Reunited Press

 

After much heated debate on the house floor, legislation was passed today to allow a growing number of families to cook meals for their families in their homes. The children must have annual physical examinations to assure proper growth and weight gain. Attempts to require weekly meal plans and monthly kitchen inspections were voted down.

 

A spokesperson from the National Association of Nutritionists (NANs) condemns this decision. "These children are being denied the rich socialization and diversity that is an essential part of the eating process. Without the proper nutritional background, it is impossible for the average person to feed their own children. We, as child advocates, see this as a step backwards and speak out for the sake of the children who cannot speak for themselves."

 

Homecooking parents say the benefits of eating at home include increased family unity and the ability to tailor a diet to a particular need. Elizabeth Crocker, a home cook, states, "We started cooking and eating at home when we realized that my son had a severe allergy to eggs. The public kitchens required him to take numerous medications that had serious side effects in order to counteract his allergy. We found that eliminating eggs was a simpler method and our son has thrived since we began doing so."

 

After this experience, the Crockers decided to home cook for all of their children, and converted their media room into a kitchen. Elizabeth says, "We have experienced so much closeness as we have explored recipes and spent time cooking together and eating together. We have a dining circle with other families where we sometimes share ideas and meals together."

The Crocker children have done well physically under their mother's care, weighing in at optimum weights for their ages and having health records far above average. It should be noted that Mrs. Crocker, while not a professional nutritionist, has a family history rich with nutritionists and home economists. "Surely the success of the Crocker children is due to the background of their mother," responded the spokesman from NANs. "The results they have achieved should not be viewed as normative." Mrs. Crocker counters that her background was actually a hindrance to the nutritional principles she follows. "Our paternal great-grandmother was a home economist, but she prepared most meal from pre-made mixes. In our homecooking we try not to duplicate public-kitchen meals, but to tailor our meals to the needs and preferences of our children."

 

In a related issue, legislation is in committee that would provide oversight for the emerging homecooking movement. Says the Home Eating Legal Defense Association (HELDA): "We want to provide umbrella kitchens to aid parents in the complicated tasks of feeding their children. Many families lack the expertise of the Crocker family, yet desire to eat at home. As we have seen, the umbrella kitchens meet the needs of all concerned. We are happy to provide this service."

 

Written by Angela Paul.

WW, I completely understand your point of view. At this point in our homeschooling I have little need for "proof" that homeschooling works. I know it works, I see it daily.

 

But, I am concerned about people in high places (media) throwing around false statements. There are many people who will take Dr. Phil's statement as the gospel truth. As such, it is highly likely our homeschooling choice will be questioned based on this specific "research". It would be nice to see if it actually exists and what exactly it entails.

I completely agree.  As an unschooler, that choice gets questioned every time people in my non-net life become aware that that is what we do... 

We tend to be highly careful in our non-net life with the terminology we use.  We use everything from "homeschooling" (a word that is not such a bad thing here in Nova Scotia) to "independent learning", and avoid the word "unschooling" because of all the baggage that seems to be attached to that word.

I, too, am uncomfortable with that term, because it sounds so aggressive, and "anti-culture".

I get a lot of questions for many of my choices, because so many of them are completely different than the mainstream, and in my non-net life I tend to avoid (sometimes painstakingly LOL) having my differences be detectable because I completely dislike being the focus of attention. 

Being a natural foodist in a world where Christmas celebrations revolve around consumption of shortbread cookies LOL... solution?  Bring a giant tray of organic grapes haha.  They disappeared so fast you'd think it was pecan pie haha.  And nobody noticed my non consumption of nanaimo bars (grin).