Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

IMHO...I am firmly of the mindset that a piece of paper simply does not make you an expert. 

I completely agree

Just because someone is a "certified" teacher or holds a degree in education of any sort does not mean they can actually teach. 

Very true

These "certified" professionals are using drugs to pacify our children...there is no other real explanation for the absolute overuse of these drugs. 

You mean MDs?  They are the ones who prescribe meds. 

 
How about the little provision in NCLB that requires schools to submit to the government the personal information of ALL of our High Schoolers so that information can then be put into yet another databeas and handed over to military recruiters.  In order to not have this information passed on you as the parent MUST be the one to opt out of the program...the problem is...no one tells you about the program. 

I found those recruiters beyond annoying. 

According to a 2003 TIMSS study the US ranked 11th in mathematics (Singapore, Russia, Lithuania & Latvia all out scored us)  For a country as advanced as ours we should have blown them all away...we did not.  We should be the highest scoring nation.  We are not. 

What makes you think the US is so advanced? 

The amount of money annually that is thrown into the education coffer is astounding...these test results prove thatthe majority of it is truly being wasted. 

While I hesitate to believe the tests prove anything, I agree too much money is thrown at the system.

Most of our property taxes end up going to pay for education.  Who is this money going to?  Not the teachers...they are grotesquely underpaid IMHO.  So then who gets the lion's share of the loot?  Administrators.  Why is it that in some of the absolute worse school districts in the country the Superintendent is paid six figures (Dallas alone had a recent one who was being paid over $300,000.00 per year) 

Is that really unreasonable?  It doesn't seem that different from many large companies.  The CEOs are highly paid, and those lower on the totem pole are paid less.  

  I shudder to hear exactly what the executives over at the NEA areactually making annually...that is where our tax dollars are going...that is precisely why the schools are always begging for more and more money. 

I don't think tax dollars go directly to the NEA, I could be wrong, but I thought they were funded with union dues.  Maybe not a big leap from tax dollars. 

The business of educating our children is just that a business to these people.  The waste of money is mind boggling. 

Depersonalization happens with all big business. 

Homeschoolers have proven overwhelmingly that it does NOT cost $10,000.00 per child per year to educate your child.

Private schools also don't spend this much per student, but then they aren't forced into mainstreaming more expensive kids.

 It does NOT take 7-9 hours a day to teach any subject at all.

The time saved homeschooling is the biggest benefit that I see.

Was this because of all the ADHD posts?  I think a lot of that was really related to the topic because homeschoolers are less likely to medicate. 

Or was it the tax issues?  That was because homeschoolers were suggested to pay less tax and/or take advantage of people who do. 

I could be wrong, maybe people are way off topic, but it seems so arbitrary what is moderated on here. 

First, about debt and living modestly.  I am very proud of the fact we are almost debt free with the exception of our home.  Also, if a family is planning to stay home there is plenty of time to reconcile the debts before baby comes.  To stay home and accumulate debt to do so is just plain silly.  Also, your standard for a husband is fine...most men can provide enough for a house payment, utilities and food.  I want more than "basics" for my kids. As you have pointed out, extras can be nice.  With another income, my children benefit to a better school district, better benefits, extracurricular activities and so on.   Also, the fact that you worked on and off sounds like maybe your husband didn't always meet that standard- just curious as that sounds a little contradictory.  I also have standards for my husband but they have little to do with money. 

Have you thought about the cost of living in other places other than your  own?  As is stands, in my state, something like 60% of people cannot afford a home.   Average house payment is about $2,000 plus utilities and food alone can be more than most can afford. It's great that only you and your husband were in a position to be the only ones with your kids.  What is the benefit to that?  Not sure I have ever understood this so maybe you could explain it.  I get not using other people (even family) to "help" but we haven't done that either.  We used daycare (a paid service) as a way to allow us to provide for our children.  In the beginning, my check was absolutely necessary now it's more about benefits.  Yes, the cash is nice but if I were home (at this point) things would be a lot less chaotic. 

  Living modestly can help a lot of people but this alone doesn't make it possible for most to stop working altogether.  Our situation is not all that unique.  If I were to work PT (which I could and make enough money) our benefits would not be the caliber they are now.  Most PT jobs do not offer benefits of any kind so now our retirement goes out the window, too.  There are many factors beyond cash that go into why a woman works.  Also, the fact that there really is no such thing as PT daycare makes it an all or nothing type of scenario.  Not to mention, being home at night to tuck my kids in and read to them is something I'm not willing to give up.  So, to end, most work for a number of reasons beyond the actual cash part of having a job.  It's great you were able to work it out the way you did and not sacrifice what you felt was important.   I have an aunt who did the same.  Unfortunately, times are different and that is not always the case.  I don't regret working all this time because now I may be able to stay home in another year or so.  I am on the flip side of some at home Moms who now have to go back to work FT after years of staying home.  Nice post...intersting points..little OT but nonetheless nice debate.

Yes, teacher certification is not an exact science of who will be a good or bad teacher,

Precisely why they are not to be considered as the all knowing final voice in educating our children.

but it's not exactly a crap shoot either. MOST professions have certification and most have good and bad in the profession.

Again, see my above response...

Do you consider every parent to have equal skills to a pharmacist, nurse, accountant, etc.?

We are all capable of reading up on and learning about whatever we need to in order to make informed decisions.  Again, there are plenty of errors made by plenty of people in all fields on a regular basis...this is precisely why I say...a certification does not guarantee a full or even workable knowledge of the area of expertise.

Teachers can not prescribe drugs. Only doctors can. Teachers can initiate a child study, but they do not make a diagnosis.

I never said they did...You obviously have never been forced tomeet with the school psychologist as he/she tells you he/she feels johnny is ADHD and needs testing.  I personally have not but I have many friends who have.  You are right they themselves cannot write the scripts but they can and do apply plenty of pressure to parents who feel as though they have no other option than to comply.

Teachers also do not create standardized tests. Publishing companies usually do this. Most educators are not allowed to SEE the tests. So teachers, educators, schools are not able to dumb them down. If you think that is occurring, you should look at your state politicians.

Again, Never said they personally did design these tests.  I amaware the publishing Co's do that...they are also paid a significant amount to publish these tests so the incentive is there to keep it going.  The only way to keep these tests going is to provide "results".  If that means altering it a little every year somore children can pass at a higher score...then so be it.  No, the school districts do not actively participate in this con but they are aware of it and they simply wink and look the other way...being aware of a rip off and doing nothing to stop it (especially when you are one of the few people who actually can) makes you just as guilty as the persons doing it.  Education professionals adamantly defend the tests and insist they be utilized.  If you don't think your tests are altered annually you need to go to your state's education site and download the test from last year and compare it to the one before...This is something I have researched extensively...I suggest you take the time to actually do the same.

The NEA is made up of teachers. An administrator's salary has NOTHING to do with the NEA. Your tax dollars do not support the NEA anymore than they support the UAW.  The US Department of Education is not a branch of the NEA.

Yes, technically the Dept of Ed is NOT a part of the NEA...but look at the credentials of all of its lead members.  My tax dollars go to the Feds who in turn give a portion to the US DOE who then turns around and forces local municipalities to follow along with their agenda (by the way no one is twisting arms...its all about the cash...sadly, I have so far been unable to find ONE district that is willing to turn down the Fed free money in order to not comply with their agenda) ...this agenda is exactly the same agenda of the NEA.  It is NOT a coincidence. 

It costs less to educate your child at home because you are not factoring in what it cost to heat/air condition your facility,

You are wrong...all of that is a part of living our lives so YES itis always factored into the equation.

the livelihood and health insurance of the teacher (yourself), the person who cleans your facility, the person who substitutes for you when you are sick....etc.

Teachers are grossly underpaid in the first place so to use the argument that the money goes to paying for them...doesn't work...way too much money goes in and not enough goes out to the teachers.  Ifit did, I would agree with this ONE point.  As for cleaning...that wouldbe the whole family...since we alllive here andmake the mess in the first place.  As far as being sick...We have NO SICK DAYS.  Does your life stop because you are sick? 

Comparing the cost of homeschooling to traditional schooling is like comparing the price the of a steak you buy at the supermarket to what it would cost to eat steak in a restaurant.

Well, first of all, the steak I buy from the supermarket is organic, hormone and antibiotic free...the steak from the restaurant is not.  Its not because the restaurant thinks the standard run of the mill beef is better, its just more cost effective.  After all, when you are feeding the masses you cannot care about individual tastes and preferences.  As long as its not killing obviously anyone or making them visibly sick then who cares...right?  Well, many of us actually do.  So in comparisions MY steak is of superior quality to the one standardly produced for the masses.   Hey,don't get me wrong, many, many people are perfectly happy with being standard...This is just not something we are personally willing to do.  Again, it is all a matter of individual preference.

Peace

I think we need to stop looking at teachers and start looking at the Administration in each system within each state.  Teachers' hands are so often tied and people need to realize that they have little control.

<<<Teachers also do not create standardized tests. Publishing companies usually do this.>>>  And who picks the publisher?

<<<Most educators are not allowed to SEE the tests.>>> 

You say that as if it's a rebuttal to the PP's argument that teachers teach TO the test.  Someone may get the idea that teachers want to see that test so they can teach the material so that they will appear to be a better teacher.  That is not true at all, but many people may get that idea in their heads.  What people don't realize is that it's the curriculum that's tailored to fit the test.  Not all teachers follow the curriculum 100% but many are told they "must".  This is what I have issues with. 

<<<So teachers, educators, schools are not able to dumb them down. If you think that is occurring, you should look at your state politicians.>>> 

Board Members have a job to do.  If I sit on the board of a failing school, I want to improve those test scores.  Wouldn't I switch publishers, therefore switching curriculum that may be less advanced than the previous one?  I'm sure it happens. 

The one thing that really upsets me is that board members are paid at all for their duties.  In Georgia some are paid very well.  On top of that, some may hold a full-time job in addition to their board duties.  Anyone wanna guess at how many hours a week/month/year it may take a paid board member to fulfill his assigned responsibilities?  Now look at how much time they spend running or preparing to run for office --- doesn't even compare in some cases.

First of all, I am a bit confused by how you are using the term "education professional". You seem to have complete disrespect for education professionals, but then I catch glimpses of you adamantly defending teachers. Do you not consider teachers or school based administrators to be education professionals? To whom are you referring? It is very unclear.

Precisely why they are not to be considered as the all knowing final voice in educating our children.

There is a lot of gray area between "the all knowing final voice" and treating the process of preparing a teacher like a complete crap shoot. It takes about four and a half years to get a teaching degree and certification....it can take less than four and a half minutes to create a child. So where is the real crap shoot?

I never said they did...You obviously have never been forced tomeet with the school psychologist as he/she tells you he/she feels johnny is ADHD and needs testing.  I personally have not but I have many friends who have.  You are right they themselves cannot write the scripts but they can and do apply plenty of pressure to parents who feel as though they have no other option than to comply.

You have no idea what my experiences have been, but I'll put my participation in 100+ child studies over you knowing a few people. You were blaming educators for drugging kids. Although I am sure there is pressure, if not to medicate, then to at least find a solution to Johnny's behavior problems and inability/unwillingness to learn, a doctor must diagnose ADD or ADHD.  I have witnessed parents so resistant to even contemplate that their own parenting (or lack of parenting) styles may be contributing to the child's problems, that they insist that something MUST be medically wrong with their child. There was even a time when a rumor got out  that a family was receiving SSI disability payments because their child was ADHD. All of a sudden we had NINE kids start taking Ritalin and child studies initiated by the parents.

No, the school districts do not actively participate in this con but they are aware of it and they simply wink and look the other way...being aware of a rip off and doing nothing to stop it (especially when you are one of the few people who actually can) makes you just as guilty as the persons doing it.  Education professionals adamantly defend the tests and insist they be utilized.  If you don't think your tests are altered annually you need to go to your state's education site and download the test from last year and compare it to the one before...This is something I have researched extensively...I suggest you take the time to actually do the same.

School districts do not make the decisions regarding tests. Again, most cannot even SEE the tests. What would you like them to do to stop it? You cannot get the tests on-line, at least not in any state I am aware of. You can get SAMPLE questions and test objectives. I do not disagree that the tests get altered to get results, but that is more a POLITICAL decision that an EDUCATIONAL decision. I have extensive first-hand experience in this area. POLITICIANS want to make it appear that they are "fixing" education. 

Yes, technically the Dept of Ed is NOT a part of the NEA...but look at the credentials of all of its lead members.  My tax dollars go to the Feds who in turn give a portion to the US DOE who then turns around and forces local municipalities to follow along with their agenda (by the way no one is twisting arms...its all about the cash...sadly, I have so far been unable to find ONE district that is willing to turn down the Fed free money in order to not comply with their agenda) ...this agenda is exactly the same agenda of the NEA.  It is NOT a coincidence. 

This makes no sense. You do not understand the NEA at all. In your previous post you called it a beast and blamed them for administrators' salaries. The NEA has NOTHING to do with administrator salaries. School administrators cannot belong to the NEA. The NEA and the Department on Education are not in cahoots. They are often diametrically opposed.  The NEA has a lawsuit pending against the Dept. of Ed over the NCLB laws. Margaret Spellings is the Secretary of Education. She is the Cabinet member chosen by the president and she heads up the Department of Education. Her credentials are NOT in education, she specializes in political science and public policy. Most Secretaries of Education do NOT come from a professional educators background. Most State Commissioners of Education do not either. It is a POLITICAL office, so it attracts people with political ambitions.

The money you pay for heating/ air conditioning etc. EVERYBODY has. What it costs to educate a student in a traditional environment will cost more than homeschooling because IT IS A SEPARATE FACILITY. And although I agree teachers should be paid better, that doesn't change the fact that your taxes do pay for the salaries of teachers, custodians, etc. No my life doesn't stop when I am sick, but when I worked an outside job....my job was not my LIFE. If I was too ill to work, somebody had to do my job and that person needs to get paid. If you drew a salary for what you do to homeschool your kids, the costs would go up.

Well, first of all, the steak I buy from the supermarket is organic, hormone and antibiotic free...the steak from the restaurant is not.  Its not because the restaurant thinks the standard run of the mill beef is better, its just more cost effective.  After all, when you are feeding the masses you cannot care about individual tastes and preferences.  As long as its not killing obviously anyone or making them visibly sick then who cares...right?  Well, many of us actually do.  So in comparisions MY steak is of superior quality to the one standardly produced for the masses.   Hey,don't get me wrong, many, many people are perfectly happy with being standard...This is just not something we are personally willing to do.  Again, it is all a matter of individual preference.

First of all, my argument was not about the QUALITY of the steak but rather the cost. You missed that point. But since you brought this up, can anyone now NOT see why people get so turned off by some (and I DO mean SOME) homeschoolers. This whole superior, we don't settle for the standards that are good enough for everyone else mentality is just nauseating (not to mention inaccurate). It is a matter of opinion that your "steak" is superior - some organic, homegrown steaks may be excellent; I fear others are simply MAD COWS.

You say that as if it's a rebuttal to the PP's argument that teachers teach TO the test

No, it is rebuttal to the notion that educators are dumbing down the tests.

Board Members have a job to do.  If I sit on the board of a failing school, I want to improve those test scores.  Wouldn't I switch publishers, therefore switching curriculum that may be less advanced than the previous one?  I'm sure it happens. 

What school boards do vary by district, but the ins and outs of curriculum and testing are not always the domain of the school board. And seeking out easier curriculum would not make sense if the test is difficult. The local school boards have no say in the state test, so why would they want kids less prepared? That won't help test scores.

You cannot get the tests on-line, at least not in any state I am aware of. You can get SAMPLE questions and test objectives. I do not disagree that the tests get altered to get results, but that is more a POLITICAL decision that an EDUCATIONAL decision. I have extensive first-hand experience in this area. POLITICIANS want to make it appear that they are "fixing" education

I stand corrected....I found two previous years' tests on-line. This was not available when I was in the system. This doesn't negate the fact that IF the tests are being dumbed-down, it is NOT the handiwork of educators. It is political.

Do Publishers create curriculum that is tailored to the test?  Is that why people accuse teachers of "teaching TO the test"?