Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

Find out what happened on the show.

More November 2006 Show Boards.


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June 12, 2007, 7:38 pm PDT

Religion

Quote From: gtrudeau

Anyone can be a positive role model in one way or another.  You, an atheist, may be a very honest person with a strong work ethic.  But I, a Christian, do believe in a life after death and I want DD to experience eternal life, not eternal death.  I do not want what I believe to be evil to be presented as good and acceptable to DD. 

 

Be honest and admit that you wouldn't want me to attempt to indoctrinate your children with Catholic positions regarding homosexuality.  Why should I allow the reverse for my DD?

 

   

Does your bible say "you must go out and bible bash every non violent peace loving atheist on the planet?"  Not buying today thanks.
 
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June 12, 2007, 7:44 pm PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: penny_lady

"Without education... but would we somehow manage without PUBLIC education?"

This is why it was pointed out way back in November that parent does not equal teacher. All a parent is is someone who had sex and got pregnant. Any person can get pregnant or get someone pregnant. That does not make someone suddenly caring, dedicated or good at educating someone in our complex society.

Not arguing with you totally by saying this, parents are their child's first teacher always.  If you are lazy, violent or swear constantly  your children learn that that's OK. 

As far as formal education, I agree that alot of parents just aren't cut out to make sure their kids learn what they need to for life and so they can make a contribution to our world.  Doesn't make them bad people, but all the good intentions can't make it happen.

 
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June 12, 2007, 8:01 pm PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: puggles

Not arguing with you totally by saying this, parents are their child's first teacher always.  If you are lazy, violent or swear constantly  your children learn that that's OK. 

As far as formal education, I agree that alot of parents just aren't cut out to make sure their kids learn what they need to for life and so they can make a contribution to our world.  Doesn't make them bad people, but all the good intentions can't make it happen.

You are right,I should have said..."Parent does not equal a GOOD teacher."


 
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June 13, 2007, 3:31 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: penny_lady

"Yes, I agree kids need to be informed on the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy, but sex goes far beyond cold, hard FACTS.  Sure, you can teach kids some basic facts about sex but how do you really educate kids about sex without getting into emotion and morals? And when you get into the moral realm everyone has their own beliefs."

That can be said for almost any topic. Take that guy who traveled on a crowded plane with TB recently. That right there is a moral and ethical situation with cold hard facts attached to it.

The emotional/moral side to sex doesn't change if the facts are given or not. Pregnancy happens when a sperm enters a female egg and it implants itself inside the uterus. That is a fact whether there are emotional parts or not.

The emotions and morals of sex are different for each person. Some people are on one extreme of sex being for procreation only, others believe it's a free for all that all can participate in. Most of us are some where between...but no matter where on that spectrum you fall, facts of human sexual activity are the same. A puritan, traditional, fundamental Christian can gets AIDS the very same way a liberal, progressive and experimental agnostic does. A condom will be just as effective for both.

"I guess this goes back to the million dollar question...aren't we ( Americans) as a whole capable of raising out own families and living our own lives without  the "help" of the government? Would there be complete chaos and widespread disease without public schools?  Would we regress to a nearly uncivilized society?"

With out government? No. With out education? Yes. The government facilitates education to the masses. The basics should be taught and I believe human sexuality is as basic as it can get. I would rather kids know how to use condoms and understand their own bodies functions and the harsh, cold, real consequences of them before they know about algebra. Why? Because being ignorant of algebra isn't a threat to the masses. AIDS is. Unwanted kids are. We have grown men in Africa raping virgins because they think it will cure AIDS. Now, we are far off from that, but the difference is education.

. I would rather kids know how to use condoms and understand their own bodies functions and the harsh, cold, real consequences of them before they know about algebra. Why? Because being ignorant of algebra isn't a threat to the masses. AIDS is. Unwanted kids are

 

You make a good point. I concede. Seriously, as things are now it only makes sense to teach sex ed in public schools. Parents are so depndent on schools right now that it would get pretty ugly if the responsibility was suddenly shifted to parents.

I don't fault people who choose to educate their children about sex on their own.

I do wish a nice common middle ground could be found as far as what to teach. Meaning, not the "well you're going to do it anyway so this is what you do" kind of talk - and not abstinence only either. And I wish we could be sure the sex ed teachers were competent. Most importantly,I think parents should be able to opt out and should be well informed on what exactly is being taught.

 
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June 13, 2007, 3:33 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: puggles

Does your bible say "you must go out and bible bash every non violent peace loving atheist on the planet?"  Not buying today thanks.
HUH?? Did I miss something?  He wasn't bible bashing anyone, was he?
 
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June 13, 2007, 4:18 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: penny_lady

You are right,I should have said..."Parent does not equal a GOOD teacher."


Too true, too true. We have bad examples running around everywhere. But, I think it's more in line with the crumble of society as a whole. We could also say "Teachers does not equal a GOOD teacher." Or even, "Parent does not equal a GOOD parent."

 

I believe this article is related to the creation/science conversation going earlier. (LOL, maybe it will even make the conversation "on topic".) Apparently teaching creation science is the new argument against homeschooling:

 

With varying degrees of red-tape, home schooling is allowed in each and every one of our 50 states.

Obviusly there were and are political reasons for this. Lots of home-schooling parents run with the creationists. Creationists are easily led, and they vote.

But as to other reasons for this blanket surrender to home school advocates- I for one, have never understood why.

Of course I know that our public school systems are plagued by problems, but I have to think that through time- even now- our public schools have nurtured tens of millions of solid citizens. And surely, our private schools have nurtured and produced millions more of our best people.

I'm not blind to the fact that many solid citizens have been home-schooled. I've even heard of home schoolers winning science fairs, and being accepted to prestigious colleges. Because I admit that home schooling works in some cases, I don't view myself as a bigot in that regard.

Still, when I look at the bigger picture, I am far from assured that the blanket legality of home-schooling serves society too well.

I'm troubled by the fact that a significant percentage of home schooling parents choose this option because of an overriding feeling that they want their children to pursue curricula from theology or received wisdom rather than a scientific perspective.

I wonder how many of these types of home-schooled kids take the assumptions of say, 6,500 year-old earths and other lack of respect for scientific inquiry into adulthood. Will these people be on equal preparatory footing for jobs where scientific inquisitiveness, technical insight or critical thinking skills are far more necessary than rote recitation?

I'm also troubled, frankly, by parents who find the world overly complex, and want to keep their students at home in the service of simplicity and protectiveness.

I'm equally troubled by the fact that a non-trivial number of home-schoolers are taught in that way because their parents are overly rugged individualists who lack the impulse or skills to mix in as collaborative members of everyday society.

Well, the world is overly complex. Lots of different types of people, of cultural forces. Hiding off somewhere and teaching your kids away from the influence of a socially formative school environment can make it harder for your children to learn about the give-and-take of life in our present-day culture.

Listen, I am not advocating that home-schooling should be outlawed. Of course there should be exemptions- where the child is in physical danger in their public school, when the child is physically immobile, where the family lives in a remote geographical area. In these cases- and when a parent professionally trained as a qualified educator is available- sure, home schooling would be OK.

But as to the home schooler subjected to beliefs that run counter to scientific inquiry and the principles in which knowledge is pursued and attained- I say send them to school and let the parents devote some of their off-hours to teaching what they feel their kids should know. One such scenario: kid comes home and tells her parent that "today our teacher said the universe is 14.5 billion years old, but we learned in Sunday School God created the world 6,500 years ago.."

Then, and only then, is the most appropriate time for the parent to get involved.

*****************

Personally, I believe the argument is lame. It only makes sense that parents will teach their children according to their belief system. Also, it only makes sense that regardless of which "origins of life" theory you teach your children will learn the opposing views. Come on... information age..... eager young minds..... they will hear the other side by simply having a conversation, right?

If this new argument against homeschooling is successful it could effect private school teachings as well. It's funny, I don't think they realize homeschools and private schools follow the same rules and are legally the same.

 

Also, the argument that creation fed homeschooled children cannot make it in the science career field is laughable. Really, how many science careers focus on which theory you believe started the world? It's such a small chapter in a HUGE book, so to speak.

 

 

 
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June 13, 2007, 8:41 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: tlc2225

. I would rather kids know how to use condoms and understand their own bodies functions and the harsh, cold, real consequences of them before they know about algebra. Why? Because being ignorant of algebra isn't a threat to the masses. AIDS is. Unwanted kids are

 

You make a good point. I concede. Seriously, as things are now it only makes sense to teach sex ed in public schools. Parents are so depndent on schools right now that it would get pretty ugly if the responsibility was suddenly shifted to parents.

I don't fault people who choose to educate their children about sex on their own.

I do wish a nice common middle ground could be found as far as what to teach. Meaning, not the "well you're going to do it anyway so this is what you do" kind of talk - and not abstinence only either. And I wish we could be sure the sex ed teachers were competent. Most importantly,I think parents should be able to opt out and should be well informed on what exactly is being taught.

Did you see the episode of Dr Phil recently about the father who does the "Purity Balls" for 11 year old girls and their fathers? That guy is the kind of guy who would opt out of sex ed. And he also made it clear that he was against sex, when Dr Phil asked him about it here was his response:

"I think sex education really diminishes these things. My goodness, we can't get away from the sexualized culture that we live in," Randy observes.

That being said, girls who take these purity pledges are just as likely to have sex before marriage as any other girl. They are also 1/3 less likely to take proper precautions.

I agree that it should be made clear what is taught in that class, but I don't understand opting out. Kids should have information, all of it when it comes to their own bodies. If this class can be opted out of then any class should be able to be able to have that option.  I'm an atheist, let's say I want my daughter to be part of the choir program, but I don't want her to sing ANY Christian songs. (Something I personally think it a bit ridiculous, you cannot teach Choral music with out there being a heavy dose of Christian/Catholic songs.) Should my daughter get to do that? Get full credit for taking only a partial class? No.

Kids running around with adult bodies, getting horny, with their immature brains is a health risk and a tax burden on ALL of us.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, I am always open to hear other thoughts and discussion of course.
 
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June 13, 2007, 8:48 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

Too true, too true. We have bad examples running around everywhere. But, I think it's more in line with the crumble of society as a whole. We could also say "Teachers does not equal a GOOD teacher." Or even, "Parent does not equal a GOOD parent."

 

I believe this article is related to the creation/science conversation going earlier. (LOL, maybe it will even make the conversation "on topic".) Apparently teaching creation science is the new argument against homeschooling:

 

With varying degrees of red-tape, home schooling is allowed in each and every one of our 50 states.

Obviusly there were and are political reasons for this. Lots of home-schooling parents run with the creationists. Creationists are easily led, and they vote.

But as to other reasons for this blanket surrender to home school advocates- I for one, have never understood why.

Of course I know that our public school systems are plagued by problems, but I have to think that through time- even now- our public schools have nurtured tens of millions of solid citizens. And surely, our private schools have nurtured and produced millions more of our best people.

I'm not blind to the fact that many solid citizens have been home-schooled. I've even heard of home schoolers winning science fairs, and being accepted to prestigious colleges. Because I admit that home schooling works in some cases, I don't view myself as a bigot in that regard.

Still, when I look at the bigger picture, I am far from assured that the blanket legality of home-schooling serves society too well.

I'm troubled by the fact that a significant percentage of home schooling parents choose this option because of an overriding feeling that they want their children to pursue curricula from theology or received wisdom rather than a scientific perspective.

I wonder how many of these types of home-schooled kids take the assumptions of say, 6,500 year-old earths and other lack of respect for scientific inquiry into adulthood. Will these people be on equal preparatory footing for jobs where scientific inquisitiveness, technical insight or critical thinking skills are far more necessary than rote recitation?

I'm also troubled, frankly, by parents who find the world overly complex, and want to keep their students at home in the service of simplicity and protectiveness.

I'm equally troubled by the fact that a non-trivial number of home-schoolers are taught in that way because their parents are overly rugged individualists who lack the impulse or skills to mix in as collaborative members of everyday society.

Well, the world is overly complex. Lots of different types of people, of cultural forces. Hiding off somewhere and teaching your kids away from the influence of a socially formative school environment can make it harder for your children to learn about the give-and-take of life in our present-day culture.

Listen, I am not advocating that home-schooling should be outlawed. Of course there should be exemptions- where the child is in physical danger in their public school, when the child is physically immobile, where the family lives in a remote geographical area. In these cases- and when a parent professionally trained as a qualified educator is available- sure, home schooling would be OK.

But as to the home schooler subjected to beliefs that run counter to scientific inquiry and the principles in which knowledge is pursued and attained- I say send them to school and let the parents devote some of their off-hours to teaching what they feel their kids should know. One such scenario: kid comes home and tells her parent that "today our teacher said the universe is 14.5 billion years old, but we learned in Sunday School God created the world 6,500 years ago.."

Then, and only then, is the most appropriate time for the parent to get involved.

*****************

Personally, I believe the argument is lame. It only makes sense that parents will teach their children according to their belief system. Also, it only makes sense that regardless of which "origins of life" theory you teach your children will learn the opposing views. Come on... information age..... eager young minds..... they will hear the other side by simply having a conversation, right?

If this new argument against homeschooling is successful it could effect private school teachings as well. It's funny, I don't think they realize homeschools and private schools follow the same rules and are legally the same.

 

Also, the argument that creation fed homeschooled children cannot make it in the science career field is laughable. Really, how many science careers focus on which theory you believe started the world? It's such a small chapter in a HUGE book, so to speak.

 

 

To me it makes for a larger problem than just understanding the facts of evolution. It undermines science as a whole. The scientific process is murdered, along with the understanding of many basic science terms.  I cannot tell you how many uber Christian people I have had tell me "Evolution is ONLY a theory." Kids should be learning the scientific definition of the word "theory"...but they aren't. Many of these kids are learning rhetoric, not creationism. Creationism is religion, it is not science.
 
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June 13, 2007, 10:07 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: penny_lady

To me it makes for a larger problem than just understanding the facts of evolution. It undermines science as a whole. The scientific process is murdered, along with the understanding of many basic science terms.  I cannot tell you how many uber Christian people I have had tell me "Evolution is ONLY a theory." Kids should be learning the scientific definition of the word "theory"...but they aren't. Many of these kids are learning rhetoric, not creationism. Creationism is religion, it is not science.

See, I don't see it as being a huge issue. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you that creation is not a science. However, I appreciate someone's right to educate their children as such.

Besides, I believe the vast majority of scientific career choices would not be effected either way by this one lesson. I have an online friend who is agnostic and works in a lab  studying different viruses. The vast majority of the people working along side her are Christian, some of whom believe in creation. There are many fields in which this just isn't an issue.

 

And when I say "theory" I am speaking as to the basic sense of the word. It's a theory because we honestly don't know what happened. We're all making really good guesses and someone may just be right. Personally, I think it's a bit arrogant to think we actually know how all this came about. But, that's just me. ;)

 
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June 13, 2007, 11:05 am PDT

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

See, I don't see it as being a huge issue. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you that creation is not a science. However, I appreciate someone's right to educate their children as such.

Besides, I believe the vast majority of scientific career choices would not be effected either way by this one lesson. I have an online friend who is agnostic and works in a lab  studying different viruses. The vast majority of the people working along side her are Christian, some of whom believe in creation. There are many fields in which this just isn't an issue.

 

And when I say "theory" I am speaking as to the basic sense of the word. It's a theory because we honestly don't know what happened. We're all making really good guesses and someone may just be right. Personally, I think it's a bit arrogant to think we actually know how all this came about. But, that's just me. ;)

Oh, I do think that parents have the right to educate their children that way too. But I am just saying it does them a disservice.

"Besides, I believe the vast majority of scientific career choices would not be effected either way by this one lesson. I have an online friend who is agnostic and works in a lab  studying different viruses. The vast majority of the people working along side her are Christian, some of whom believe in creation. There are many fields in which this just isn't an issue."

These people probably partition their minds. Many scientists do. They have a spiritual side, and a scientific side. Viruses mutate, they evolve, they are susceptible to selective pressures...not only that, selective pressures are USED to make organisms do certain things. 40% of scientists are theists...but nearly all, except a few, understand evolution and accept it.

A good book that illustrates this kind of partitioning is "Finding Darwin's God" by Ken Miller. He is a Catholic and he is also a Biologist at Brown University.

"And when I say "theory" I am speaking as to the basic sense of the word. It's a theory because we honestly don't know what happened."

No, of course not, but we do know with reasonable certainty, based on evidence that Evolution is the explanation for the variety of life on this planet.

But you are using the word theory incorrectly in this sense. The word "theory" in science means (to borrow words from a friend):

A theory is a concept that attempts to explain a grouping of facts; it doesn't have a negative connotation that suggests it is just some dubious, random idea. Gravity is also a theory and just like evolution, it will never be defined as a fact.

The word "theory" in everyday use is very different and this causes confusion.

"We're all making really good guesses and someone may just be right. Personally, I think it's a bit arrogant to think we actually know how all this came about. But, that's just me. ;)"

Arrogant? No, not if you understand the theory. Really. I used to be a creationist, I studied evolution so I could strengthen my arguments against evolutionists. What I found was that Evolution is a very solid theory that is, in laymen terms is a fact, in scientific terms, a sound theory with no competing theories.

Also, another misconception. The Theory of Evolution doesn't have anything to do with how life started. It has only to do with how life evolves. What you are talking about here is the theory of abiogenisis.
 

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