Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

Find out what happened on the show.

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November 19, 2006, 12:03 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: txmary

It is NOT a FREE education.  I pay extraordinary property taxes to fund the local publc schools that my children do not even atttend.  My mother and grandparents also pay outrageous property taxes, and they do not have children or grandchildren in the schools either.  Public Education is not FREE.

You also pay taxes towards a fire department you may never use, police you may never call, ambulances you pray you never need, the salaries for politicians you may think you'd be better off without, and a multitude of other things you may not realize or agree with.

 

The point of public education is that democracy will only survive if the populous is educated. That is the intent behind public education. It is more for the benefit of society than the individual. Individual benefits, though they certainly exist, are secondary.

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:06 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: sneakers145

How do I know, without testing and grades and such, you mean?  Without external evaluation?

 

Let me ask this before I answer:  How do you know YOUR kids are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment?  Do you rely on their grades?  Assessments by teachers?  What?

 

I see my kids in action every day.  My daughter, when she was 10, held a job at the barn mucking stalls and feeding horses in exchange for extra riding time.  She comes to work with me and is helpful to my clients when they walk through the door.  She can use a computer better than I can, including programming with html.  She currently runs an online store, though it deals with points instead of cash.  I see what she's learning and what she already knows in the questions she asks me.   Because I talk with my kids about everything and anything.

 

My son is only 8 but he's the master of tenacity.  He'll do whatever he sets his mind to do in life.  No doubt about that.  Because he already does.

 

Riding instructors, skateboard camp counselors, grandparents with education backgrounds, other parents have all commented on the maturity and poise of my children, along with being awed by their knowledge base.  They may not have the exact base their public schooled peers have but they have breadth and depth in the knowledge they do have.

 

No doubt in my mind whatsoever.  Plus, I have the benefit of knowing other lifelong unschoolers and seeing them get into college or succeed in business that i harbor no doubts about my own kids.

 

Why do people feel that external assessment is so important? 

It wasn't a combative question, I don't really think it warranted such a defensive answer. You aren't going to get many people to understand the dynamics of unschooling if you refuse to give concrete answers.

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:25 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

It wasn't a combative question, I don't really think it warranted such a defensive answer. You aren't going to get many people to understand the dynamics of unschooling if you refuse to give concrete answers.

Combative?  I gave you an honest, thoughtful answer. 

 

I think unschooling makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, as it goes against what conventional wisdom tells us.  That kids can grow up and become productive members of society WITHOUT school.  Without honors.  Without transcripts.  It means that what you've been taught and believe isn't 100% correct.

 

Unschooling challenges people's beliefs.  I doubt no matter what I or any other unschoolers say on this board will change anyone's mind here.  But I'm sure we'll make you think. :) 

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:34 pm PST

"Unschooling" is not "unlearning":

Quote From: cmkennedy124

 Don't get me wrong, I home school...but, if you don't teach them.........how do they or how are they learn (ing) read, write, spell, and do basic math? I just feel these are VERY important to make sure a child knows before going off into the world (aside from other subjects).
As you may have noticed by now, there are different notions about what homeschooling should be and what unschooling actually is.

From my point of view, "unschooling" does not mean "not teaching".  We teach our kids--we just don't "school" them.   Our kids learn perfectly well without "schooling" nonsense, most of which harms real learning in my opinion..

Reading, writing, and math are things that are interesting and useful!   You don't need to make a chore out of them to learn them.   In our home we are learning these things a little bit at a time, all the time.  We learn reading by reading stories, or talking about signs in the grocery store, or trying to figure out how to play a game on the computer.  My daughter likes to write letters to friends or her grandparents, and also likes to copy down parts of stories that she likes.  We learn math from cooking, or playing games, or going to the store and buying things.  (We play a lot of games in our house, BTW.) 

I could go on--but think about it for yourself.  Kids like to learn.  They want to be able to do all the things that the grownups around them can do.  You don't have to sit them at a desk and grind them through a bunch of fake busywork on a fake schedule for fake rewards.  That makes things worse, not better.

I admit that some people can't "get" the idea of unschooling, or homeschooling for that matter.  I think it helps if the parents are the kind of people who enjoy learning themselves.  But it works for us, and other families that we know, and lots and lots of families you can read about if you care to look.

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:38 pm PST

Homeschoolers Excel!

As a mother/stepmother of 7, I have tried every form of schooling available. We have been through public schools, private schools, charter schools, and now homeschooling. I hope Dr. Phil gives a well-rounded view of homeschooling in his show this week and doesn't neglect to mention that A. most homeschoolers are NOT unschoolers and B. homeschoolers score on average in the 85th percentile on standardized tests and do exceptionally well in college. Stanford and other Ivy League schools seek out homeschoolers because they do so well academically and socially--does that sound like the kids aren't well prepared for life? Most homeschoolers use top-notch curriculum geared to their specific needs and have busy social lives with a wide network of friends and caring adults. I know it doesn't make for good TV, but I hope someone at least MENTIONS that this is the homeschool norm!

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:45 pm PST

More on Unschooling

In case anyone out there is reading yet not debating and wants more info on unschooling, here area  few links:

 

www.sandradodd.com/unschooling

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

 

http://www.sudval.org/01_abou_09.html  30+ years of evidence

 

Unschooling is so much more than absence of school, structured learning, or curriculum.  It's not for everyone, that's for sure.  It challenges your core beliefs.  But as I saw once on a bumper sticker:  Don't believe everything you think.  :)

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:49 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: cmkennedy124

 Thank you for your kind words...I agree with you; for the most part.

All states regulate home schooling to a point. Some states are more strict than others when it comes to what the parent can and can't do.

For example: I live in Missouri. I do not answer to anyone unless called to court if someone reports me for educational neglect. Even then, the courts must feel strongly that I am not home schooling/teaching anything. In that case, I would have to show I am home schooling to the law by showing records.

I have to teach 1,000 hours per year; at least 600 hours in the fiverequired subjects; 400 of these 600 hours must occur at "the regularhome school location" (one hour=one class/subject), Reading, math, social studies, language arts, and science, Maintain records of subjects taught, activities engagedin, samples of the child's academic work and evaluations or a credibleequivalent, and a written log showing the hours required under"attendance". If I do not do this and EVER got called to court....I would be in trouble. I keep records like any public school would so, I am covered in that respect.

I do not have to have qualifications (A high school education or higher is what I think everyone should have to teach), I do not have to give notice to anyone that I am home schooling. If a social worker knocks on my door for educational neglect...she must leave if I tell her I am home schooling. She/he can then turn that over to a truant officer who then will ask the same thing of me. When I say, again, I am home schooling...he can let it go or give to the city prosecutor who can then subpoena my records.....in my case...my records would proove I am home schooling to the law. I also do not have to give my children tests (though I do anyway).

Other states are even stricter and the parents have to report to people each year (school officials) and be "approved" approved to home school.  you can see that here by clicking on a state:
http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/default.asp

In some states, such as my own, there are some standards, but the follow through is ZIP. Homeschooled kids are supposed to take the yearly standardized tests, but they seldom do and there is no real consequence.

 

When you watch too many homeschool kids return to the public school system after their parents either realize they are in over their heads or have simply had enough, you become skeptical that it is something that should be completely unregulated. I had one 8th grade girl who came to the public school after her parents divorced and her Mom had to give up homeschooling. She was phenomenal - smart, dedicated, patient, truly a gem. Sadly, in my experience, she is the exception. Most homeschool kids who end up back in the system are lacking in academics, social skills, and the ability to not be the center of the universe. Their parents had the "home" part down, but not so much on the "school."

 

I know many people do a great job, but many others are falling through the cracks.  THAT is my concern....the idea that just anybody can homeschool.

 
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November 19, 2006, 12:58 pm PST

How do you KNOW?

Quote From: julie1418

I do not know enough about unschooling to support or dispute it, but I am wondering something. Other than your own observations, how do you KNOW your children are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment? I am not suggesting that they won't, I'm simply wondering if there is any other form of assessment other than anecdotal.
Well, we pay attention to our kids.  We think about what they know now, and can do, and what they'll need to know and be able to do.  So far, they're fine.

I suspect you won't find this satisfying, but there it is.

 
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November 19, 2006, 1:04 pm PST

Why Homeschool?

My four children have homeschooled all their lives. We are what might be considered “eclectic homeschoolers.” For those not familiar with that term, all that means is that we pick and choose our curriculum, rather than adhering toany particular method of school of thought. Some topics we do in a fairly regulated way, and others are more free-form. We unschool when it suits us and choose a school at home style when it suits us.Here in a nutshell is why we made the homeschool choice.   


   

  1. My husband and I get to develop a close relationship with my children. Because of, or perhaps in spite of, our constant companionship, I have a terrificly close relationship with my kids. We learn altogether, we eat altogether, we play altogether. I know what my kids are reading, what they are watching, where they go, who their friends are. It may seem a bit totalitarian, but so many of the parents I know don't have any idea of what their kids know, or what they do when they are out of sight.

       

  2. I know what my kids are learning. The reason that there is so much dependence on testing in the public and private schools is because the teachers have to be sure the children are learning what they need to know, and they need to account to the parents some measure of the children's learning. The most efficient means is by administering a test. As a parent who is also acting as my children's instructor, I know when they are mastering a skill, and when they don't seem to be getting it. If one method of instruction isn't working, I can try another, and another, until I find the right combination of materials and approaches that works with each of my individual children. I don't feel that a teacher with 20+ students will have the time to do this with each of their individual students for each and every topic that comes along. If they don't get it, then they receive a poor grade, and the problem gets passed to their next teacher, who will either help them or pass the problem to the next and so on. I have the chance to really get in there and help them understand and work through the difficulty, before moving on to the next thing.

       

  3. My kids are well socialized. As a gregarious elementary student who was told that school time was not for socializing, to becoming an awkward teen, who was underdeveloped and bullied because of it, I feel, through personal experience, that I've seen a lot of the bad side of school socialization. As a parent, I refuse to put my kids in a situation where they need to grow a thick skin, learn indifference and disrespect for others, or suffer at the hands of bullies. They have the entire rest of their lives for learning about the rotten side of humanity. For now, I want them to feel that people are generally nice, that manners are important, and that their family is the center of their social existence. For the people who of the opinion that homeschoolers either lock themselves in a closet and never interact with other people, I can only sigh and shake my head sadly at their misinformation. Homeschoolers interact with the whole people of the world. They interact with everyone they meet. Young people, old people, professionals, children, people from different races, sex and every other walk of life. They are not limited in their interaction to the kids who happen to have had birthdays the same year, excepting when they go to the nursing home at holiday time to sing carols or something.    


So this is why I choose to homeschool. What I don't get is why the choice I make is so threatening to people who have chosen differently. My kids areintelligent kids who are surpassing the standards set by my state. I don't foresee that they will have any particular difficulty adapting to college and life beyond that. Why, therefore, is this choice such a choice of such contention? True, I am not degreed in math but my kids are further along than their peers; I am not degreed inliterature, but my children are very well read. So I don't believe that my specific lack of training in those areas is hampering their learning. So, if my kids aren't suffering academically, emotionally or socially, why do you homeschool non-believers hate my family's choice?   

 
 
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November 19, 2006, 1:31 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: manda7

I graduated last year from public school.  I had excellent grades and am now doing well in college where I am studying to be a nurse. I think that people are making excuses by blaming public school when students don't do well.  With any type of school, you get what you take out of it.  Most kids today are lazy.  Why don't we call it what it is!  I do not think it is the school's fault.  I was raised by a single, disabled mother, and I was able to take advanced classes while working and doing internships.  So when I hear public schools being blamed for students not passing even the most basic classes, I think maybe we should look at how much effort the student is putting in.  I went to school, payed attention, studied, and passed the classes.  There were also students who cut school, did not pay attention, did not study, and (surprise surprise) did not pass.  It seems very simple to me, each person is responsible for their own success.  We just don't like to take responsibility for our own actions (laziness), so we blame the school (laziness).  Life is not like private school or home school.  You get what you are given in life and you choose to either work hard for success, or be lazy and blame something else for your failure.

As for the people who are choosing not to educate their children at all, I hope they feel good about crippling them for life.  Regardless of their opinion about education, it is necessary in our society.  The best job you can get without some kind of higher education is at McDonald's.  They are sentencing their children to a life of almost certain poverty.  They should be ashamed of themselves.

Thank you!

 

We did a little of everything--public, private, and my brother was homeschooled briefly.  I've been to good public schools, bad public schools, good private schools, and bad private schools (just because it's private doesn't mean it's better--one of mine was practically unschooling-for-tuition!).  The high school I attended was academically up to par but very rigid; I'm learning disabled so I had a hard time but I did learn what I needed to know to survive in college.  None of them were perfect.

 

I eventually went to a respected private college and graduated without the extra help I could have gotten because of my learning problems.  The bottom line was that my parents were clued-in, interested, and made sure I was doing what I needed to be doing.  They didn't do my homework for me, but the taught me the processes I needed to do it.  Public school teachers have 35 kids in a class--they cannot be parent substitutes.

 

There isn't any one single problem with America's educational system.  It's overwhelmed.  We need better teachers, we need better administrators, we need better standards, we probably need fewer tests (although, really, any child who is actually educated should be able to pass them.  I was a National Merit Scholar--high SAT's--but I never did any test prep at all) but we also need parents to follow through, pay attention to their children's homework , teach them to sit down and behave in class, read to them, and not start waving a lawsuit around if their child gets busted cheating, cutting class, or causing problems.

 

I don't even think this is a new problem, only that it becomes more obvious as more and more education is required to make a living.  My grandfather made a very solid living with a high-school diploma back in the days when there were non-college and college tracks (he was non-college).  It's extremely hard to do that now. 

 

I agree that there are a lot of things kids need to learn by doing.  I'm not in favor of loads of homework or disembodied academia (schoolwork without context), but I don't see how one learns algebra by association.  Some things require some tedium and discipline.

 

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