Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

As a homeschooling family, you keep your own transcripts.  If at 18 the child wants to go to college that would be fine.  He would take the necessary test and send in his transcripts.  IF there are some math or science skills that he had not previously acquired, HE would set about accquiring those skills.  For an unschoolers love of learning guides him to do what ever it is that sparks his interest.  THerefore, if he was interested in Medical school and had not yet gathered the knowledge that is required, his love for learning and ability to research all that interest him would guide him to the necessary academics for his passion!

The premise of unschooling is that the child will learn on their own terms.  A majority of unschooling families believe that children are more in tune with what their talents and desires are when they are young and not yet pressured to go one way or another in life.  There fore it is believed that they are born knowing who they are and what natural talents and abilities they have been blessed with.

Did you read the original post? I asked, in very simple terms, if there was any other form of assessment other than anecdotal? I made it VERY CLEAR that I didn't know enough about unschooling to be for it or against it. What I received in reply was an immediate statement that a lot of people are uncomfortable with unschooling and a huge defense against assessment. I think the implication was pretty clear.

 

Um, that's not quite true.

 

Here's the exchange:

 

Julie said:  I do not know enough about unschooling to support or dispute it, but I am wondering something. Other than your own observations, how do you KNOW your children are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment? I am not suggesting that they won't, I'm simply wondering if there is any other form of assessment other than anecdotal.   I answered: 

Unschooling challenges people's beliefs.  I doubt no matter what I or any other unschoolers say on this board will change anyone's mind here.  But I'm sure we'll make you think. :) 

 

How do I know, without testing and grades and such, you mean?  Without external evaluation?

 

Let me ask this before I answer:  How do you know YOUR kids are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment?  Do you rely on their grades?  Assessments by teachers?  What?

 

I see my kids in action every day.  My daughter, when she was 10, held a job at the barn mucking stalls and feeding horses in exchange for extra riding time.  She comes to work with me and is helpful to my clients when they walk through the door.  She can use a computer better than I can, including programming with html.  She currently runs an online store, though it deals with points instead of cash.  I see what she's learning and what she already knows in the questions she asks me.   Because I talk with my kids about everything and anything.

 

My son is only 8 but he's the master of tenacity.  He'll do whatever he sets his mind to do in life.  No doubt about that.  Because he already does.

 

Riding instructors, skateboard camp counselors, grandparents with education backgrounds, other parents have all commented on the maturity and poise of my children, along with being awed by their knowledge base.  They may not have the exact base their public schooled peers have but they have breadth and depth in the knowledge they do have.

 

No doubt in my mind whatsoever.  Plus, I have the benefit of knowing other lifelong unschoolers and seeing them get into college or succeed in business that i harbor no doubts about my own kids.

 

Why do people feel that external assessment is so important? 

 

Julie said:  It wasn't a combative question, I don't really think it warranted such a defensive answer. You aren't going to get many people to understand the dynamics of unschooling if you refuse to give concrete answers.

 

I said:  Combative?  I gave you an honest, thoughtful answer. 

 

I think unschooling makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, as it goes against what conventional wisdom tells us.  That kids can grow up and become productive members of society WITHOUT school.  Without honors.  Without transcripts.  It means that what you've been taught and believe isn't 100% correct.

 

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You didn't read my honest, thoughtful answer to your question.  Nor did you answer my questions.  Do you really rely on external evaluations to know how your kids are doing?  I'm curious.

 

You ask, I've answered honestly and without animostity.  You apparently perceive that I'm hostile, defensive, and combative, which couldn't be farther from the truth. 

 

I don't have goals for my kids.  My kids have their own goals.  I don't decide which experiences that facilitate learning.  We just do cool stuff.  Whale watches.  Indian museums.  Aquariums.  Candle factories.  Glass blowing.  In addition to the usual stuff:  computer games, playstation, maps, National Geographic, Discovery Channel, K'nex, music, etc.  All of it sparks interest and creativity.  Some of it gets explored in far more detail than others.  Right now both are focused on communications -- reading, writing, and computer coding.

 

You seem to think that a person of age 18 has mastered every subject and stands on the precipice of life, 100% prepared to step forward and meet any goal they set.  If at 18  my unschooled child decided to go to college, then they'd study and take the SATs, see what requirements they need in addtion to what they've done, and they'll go.  College isn't something that one needs to decide to do at the magic age of 18.  It will be there when they're 22, 25, or even 35.  I know a radiologist who now wants to be an architect.  And off he goes.  People change their minds all the time in life.  To me, a college degree in accounting is useless if you want to work in the theater designing sets.

 

 

I know that when I was in High School, I wanted to go to business school and probably become an accountant. I took accounting an business course at my high school, but my high school standards also insisted I take English and History and Science.

 

Once I was in college, I discovered I did not like business as much as I thought I would, but I excelled at my literature and writing classes. I am grateful that those in charge of my education insisted I receive well-rounded study. I ended up becoming an English teacher and then a school administrator.

 

I have to wonder, do you have any safeguards in place in case your child changes his mind or interests, as young people often do? My concern would be if the child was really interested in something and followed it intensely only to lose interest and then want something else. Is there any plan to keep them well-rounded an exposed to many options. Is there a point where you think, my child is reaching college age, I better make sure he has at least these skills?

Most people don't. That is why we are ASKING questions.

 

Then it would help if you read, thought about, and pondered the answers, rather than trying to refute them.

 

Unschooling may be very successful for some people.

 

Unschooling is not for everyone, for sure.  Nobody is claiming that it is.  And if it fails in a particular family, it's not the unschooling.  It's the people involved.

 

I think there is a danger that it could be misunderstood and abused.

 

Misunderstood and abused how?  That parents will just pull their kids from school, plop them on the couch, and hope they learn by osmosis?  What dangers do you perceive?

 

I would also think you would have to be pretty financially sound and have much flexible time as a family to do it well.

 

I'm a single mom with an involved dad who is also very pro-unschooling.  We are not wealthy but it works for us.  Yes, many families learn to survive on one income so that Mom can stay home (sometimes it's the Dad who does).  It involves sacrifice and commitment to one's kids, not wealth.

 

I'm not thus far convinced it's the best route for every family.

 

You're right.  And nobody here is trying to convince anyone that unschooling is best for every family.  We're providing information as to how unschooling works, to people who believe that school, or homeschool with curriculum, is the only way to educate children.  But we also believe that somewhere someone is reading this board, looking for alternatives to public school or even homeschooling.  Unschooling is something most people have never even heard about.

You'd probably get a better view of unchooling is you did some reading and research. Google unschooling, try the free issues (download in PDF) of lifelearningmagazine.com, and check out John Holt and John Taylor Gatto. Contructed a straw man of what you imagine unschooling to be based on one person's experience is a questionable means of arriving at a conclusion about it. Critical thinking, reason and research trump anecdotes any day.

(My previous post (to which you were replying) was accidently sent under my husband's username.  I've got it straightened out now so that he can continue the thread as himself and me as myself.)

We do provide direction to our kids.  It is important to us that they learn basic math, are able to read at an adult level by the time they are adults, can write well enough to write, say, a business letter or resume, can speak correctly by middle class American standards andcan do so in front of a few people without much anxiety.  But to achieve these goals, our kids do not need to follow a structured curriculum. 

They love to play games.  At ages 4 and 6 they are learning addition, subtraction, and simple mulitplication from playing board games, games on the internet and just from asking mom and dad lots and lots of questions.  They are slowly getting the idea of fractions from cooking with me.  They love to have stories read to them and the six year old is gradually learning to read without formal instruction.  Sometimes they dictate stories to me and we make their own books they can illustrate themselves.  Sometimes my six year old writes the words herself (with spelling help from mom).  We have weekly informal classes with our "homeschool friends" where the kids get lots of opportunities for learning, including some "pre-readers' theater" experience.

Basically what I'm saying is that we pay attention to our kids.  We observe what excites them and what turns them away.  We gently offer them opportunities to learn the basics I have mentioned, as well as other topics.  As parents we also act as models to our kids, pursuing our own interests in programming, game design, gardening, various historical topics, nutrition, fairy tales, economics, etc.  We often talk to the kids about what we are interested in.  We are trying to keep the spark of curiosity alive in them.  We want them to see learning as fun and exciting.  Forcing them to sit down and drill multiplication facts for a set amount of time each day, for example, *might* help them memorize their times tables, but it also might teach them that math is tedious. 

And as for college entrance exams, I am not too worried.  If they spend the next 12 years immersed in learning I believe they will do well on any college entrance exam.  And it's not like we are going to let them run wild with no parental attention.  We, and every other unschooler we know, keep a close eye on what they are learning.  We can't help it, we're present for each little step along the way, and get just as excited as the kids about what they're learning.  We aren't going to say "Oh, she's ten and still can't write, no big deal."  More likely we will say "Hmmm. .  . she just doesn't like to write.  Maybe if she had a penpal she would get more practice with writing."  It's an ongoing, you might say organic, process of one interest building upon another.  They want to learn.  They haven't been taught that learning is boring.   As parents we use our experience to show them more ways to learn than they could see all on their own. 

HTH.

Assume the very worst case scenario. You got to the point where you decided you wanted to be an english teacher but had not bothered with English skills. What then? Is the dream over? From watching unschooled kids and older self-directed learners what happens (with them at least) is they simply go out and get the skills they need. Then they pursue the dream. Would you have really looked at your lack of English and decided it was an insurmountable obstacle? I really doubt it.

I would also think you would have to be pretty financially sound and have much flexible time as a family to do it well. >>>>>>>>> Just wanted to respond to this as well. We're an unschooling family. We're also a low income family allthough we're now in much better shape financially then a few years ago when we began to unschool. I think if we sent our kids to school I'd HAVE to work. Between school fees, supplies and clothes we'd be sunk.

 

First of all, this isn't an issue that only unschoolers face. I'd say most of the people entering college have little to no idea of what they eventually want to be. Some of them do, of course, but many have only the vaguest notions. At most universities, the first couple of years are very broad-based classes and you only really start to specialize with higher level classes in your field in the last couple of years. Medical school is something that you start after your initial university study is over anyways. So assuming an unschooler arrived at college and decided s/he wanted to go to medical school, they would have to start taking the appropriate college classes for a major that fits into the pre-medical requirements of the med school that they are interested in attending. If they didn't already have the math and science skills at that point, they might have to start with lower level classes and work up to the higher level ones. Chances are, if a kid is interested in med school, as an unschooler he would've spent his childhood studying bones, skeletons, reading anatomy books, etc. So they'd be well-prepared to start in college at pre-med. If not, they'd simply have some catching up to do. Either way I don't see it as a huge detriment.

 

I know many people who started college and ended up doing something completely different. Myself, I started as a Fine Arts major, and ended up in Computer Science and eventually working for Microsoft. Since computer software companies were barely even *around* when I was in high school (think the age of the TRS-80 and the tape drive), it was not a career that was even on my radar screen. I did have to go back and take some math classes that I had missed because my original major was in the arts. It was no big deal though.

 

Lastly, even if, say, an unschooler completely and totally missed the boat. At 18, they somehow managed to have no skills whatsoever. But they wanted to go to med school. They could start fromscratch at that point, taking community college classes until they were ready to be admitted to a university. People do enter medical school at all ages.  The world's youngest med school student is currently a 12 year old homeschooled kid who already graduated summa cum laude from Loyola. And here's a website called "Nontraditional Medical Student: Getting Into Med School: A guide for older nontraditional students". The web page was put together by a person who applied to med school at 37 and is currently a resident: http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~mikeg/ntmed/

 

I think the main thing that I believe is that the world is not as cut-and-dried as many people think. Sure, there's the basic life path of grade school, high school, college, career. But many people go to college or university later in life. Many people change careers. Many people have great careers with no college or university. Many people change their minds. Some people don't even start the career that they're famous for until they are middle-aged or beyond (think Grandma Moses). Some people arrive at careers from non-traditional paths. Life is really open and full of possibilities if we are not engaged in shutting doors in our own faces. Unschoolers know this instinctively, they have never known different. My kids have never learned that they can't or won't be able to do something. They believe they can do anything. By contrast, both my husband and I were told in school what we were and weren't capable of. He was told he was a "slow learner" and a "failure". He is one of the smartest people I know, and has successfully built his own business and now a totally different career, completely from scratch. I was told I was "unathletic" by my high school gym teachers and coaches. I'm now a competitive triathlete and a swim coach. I was told "girls don't do well with computers", I ended up working in the computer software field.

 

Again, life for unschoolers is not about shutting doors, but a rich world of open doors. My kids will be whatever their passions lead them to be, I have absolutely zero doubts about that.

What I don't think has been made clear are some things about what eclectic homeschooling and/or unschooling does not mean.  Unschooling does not mean a child will never "take a class", or read a textbook about a subject.  Unschooling does not mean a child just "runs wild". A parent's job is still to be the parent, the facilitator, the guider, the person who enables the child to learn both the good and the bad.  Whether homeschooling, unschooling, or whatever the course of education, the bigger picture, the main goal, is to give a person the tools to know how to LEARN, as opposed to being spoon fed facts for short-term satisfaction of a teacher or guardian.

I hear questions all the time about "how will the child learn math?", well, to answer that, one would have to ask the question, "why are these subjects taught in schools in the first place?"  I mean, surely there is a reason that math and social studies, science and what not are taught, right?  There must be more to it than the idea that they have to satisfy a teacher.  They're expected to take that knowledge home and use it!  It's supposedly developmentally appropriate.  It's supposed to prepare them for the "real world".

The idea that math (or any subject) is only "available" in schools and not teachable in life
 is a long-believed myth.  There is so much in the real world that encompasses many "subjects".  Articles in the newspaper, for example, which capture my children's interest often prompt them to get a book out, or explore via other media (magazines, the internet, etc) on the subject and explore it further, be it history, biology, mathematics, sports, current events, politics, world religions, literature, or whatever ideas come up.

We are eclectic homeschoolers because we believe that knowledge pursued is knowledge retained.  We all have subjects which hold our personal interest for which we seek more and more knowledge outside of the classroom.  The same is for students.

Calculus and higher math are obtainable for those who have an interest in it and wish to pursue it.  If they find it challenging and fascinating, there are many careers for which knowing calculus is a requirement.  However, I know many successful people who are whizzes at English lit, yet who need a calculator to balance a check book.  But, they are successful in their chosen field of study. 

Adults get to choose what they pursue, and when they choose it, they pursue it because they *love* it or have an aptitude for it.  They also learn it when their minds, for whatever reason, are ready to receive and retain the knowledge.   Children deserve the same right, to be exposed to all there is out there, yes, but to also be allowed to embrace and focus on their interests.  Not everyone is good at the same thing at the same time, regardless of where one is educated, be it home, school, cave, Mars.  To expect everyone to uniformly know the same things with the same deadline is unrealistic.  That is why there are so many fields of interest out there.

This is in no way intended to knock public school teaching.  My hat is off to public school teachers.  It is a tremendous job, and I would never knock the hard work of a dedicated teacher.  To impart knowledge to 20 or more passing acquaintances is challenging.  Many relatives of mine, and even some who homeschool/unschool, are teachers by profession, and it is a different job to raise a classroom full of students than it is to raise
one's own children and loved ones.

Public school is, when you think about it, a relatively young insititution, compared to the vast number of generations who were expected to teach and prepare their own for the world.

Please forgive the length of this post.  This doesn't even begin to cover the aspects of homeschooling which would require a whole other mindset to understand.  Here is an article which explores it further:
http://naturalchild.com/guest/earl_stevens.html