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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 20, 2006, 7:08 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

"Show us these failures, please."

Are you trying to say that there is NO failure in all of home schooling?

(I personally know of 4 families who are home schooling and unschooling and they are all doing very horrid jobs. 2 of these families say their kids need the Bible only, 2 think that kids only need to learn what ever they happen upon.)

"not that homeschooling doesn't work."

Oh..I see. You only count in your mind the successful home schooling stories.

"Those are the ones that re-enter the school system.  Find the ones who graduated from their respective homeschools and have failed to become gainfully employed, living separately from their parents, and are not productive members of society.  Where are these failures?"

I KNOW these failures. One of the families I mentioned above has adult children now. One of the females pretty much got married and popped out kids and is now planning on home schooling them the way she was. She doesn't know who won the Civil War...she says it's not in the Bible so it's not important.

You honestly think in the whole wide world home schooling has NEVER failed one child?

Nobody denies the fact you have met homeschooling failures. It is all Anecdotal evidence though...  

From Wikipedia: "The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is."

You met a few families who have failed at homeschooling. You probably think: "Wow, I alone know 4 families! Imagine how many more bad homeschool cases are out there!!" Well, the only thing that it proves is that you live in a area where homeschoolers who do so for orthodox religious reasons are!  MANY researches have been made on homeschooling with SCIENTIFIC evidence that shows that its success rate is MUCH higher than that off public school education!
 
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November 20, 2006, 7:11 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

"Also, PLEASE don't call lazy uninterest parents Unschoolers. A true unschooling parent will be fully available for their child ANYTIME"

Oh..so you pick and choose the "good apples" by calling the bad unschooling parents untrue to unschooling.

I think, like anything else in life, there are good unschooling experiences, and bad. Same with home schooling, public schooling, private schooling and disco dancing.
Of course there are "bad apples" everywhere!

The question is: what percentage of public school kids turn out to be "bad apples" compared to the percentage of unschooled children that do??
 
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November 20, 2006, 7:16 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: emmiedahl

"According to you, a man is great in proportion as he revolts and rebels; but I say, a man is never greater or stronger than when he truly humbles himself before God." Benjamin Franklin

 

Hmmm, doesn't sound Christian at all....

 

Ben Franklin was confused about God, as are many people, but he was unambivalently Christian.

 

That list was what the founding fathers themselves professed, how they classified themselves. They prayed before every session and mentioned God repeatedly in their writings. Many were against a state religion, but that was because the state in question was prohibiting religions. Now we live in a similar state--you are atheist OR ELSE.

 

Theology is being written out of our history books, as is much truth. Another reason to homeschool.

There are many religions that believe in God, that does not mean he was talking about the Christian one.  There are also many definitions of "God".  Why does everyone assume that God is Christian?  It's not always the case.  I know that this isn't on topic, but there is a debate board that you can talk about this on.  Under "News and Current Events".
 
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November 20, 2006, 7:17 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jj1977

Nobody denies the fact you have met homeschooling failures. It is all Anecdotal evidence though...  

From Wikipedia: "The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is."

You met a few families who have failed at homeschooling. You probably think: "Wow, I alone know 4 families! Imagine how many more bad homeschool cases are out there!!" Well, the only thing that it proves is that you live in a area where homeschoolers who do so for orthodox religious reasons are!  MANY researches have been made on homeschooling with SCIENTIFIC evidence that shows that its success rate is MUCH higher than that off public school education!
I was talking specifically to someone whose remark was along the lines of "show me failures"...I was merely pointing out that there are indeed failures, that I've seen them with my own eyes...

I was NOT talking about the over all good or bad of home schooling.
 
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November 20, 2006, 7:18 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jj1977

Of course there are "bad apples" everywhere!

The question is: what percentage of public school kids turn out to be "bad apples" compared to the percentage of unschooled children that do??
Did you see the information Julie supplied below?
 
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November 20, 2006, 7:18 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

"Show us these failures, please."

Are you trying to say that there is NO failure in all of home schooling?

(I personally know of 4 families who are home schooling and unschooling and they are all doing very horrid jobs. 2 of these families say their kids need the Bible only, 2 think that kids only need to learn what ever they happen upon.)

"not that homeschooling doesn't work."

Oh..I see. You only count in your mind the successful home schooling stories.

"Those are the ones that re-enter the school system.  Find the ones who graduated from their respective homeschools and have failed to become gainfully employed, living separately from their parents, and are not productive members of society.  Where are these failures?"

I KNOW these failures. One of the families I mentioned above has adult children now. One of the females pretty much got married and popped out kids and is now planning on home schooling them the way she was. She doesn't know who won the Civil War...she says it's not in the Bible so it's not important.

You honestly think in the whole wide world home schooling has NEVER failed one child?

"Show us these failures, please."

Are you trying to say that there is NO failure in all of home schooling?

I don't think at all that she was trying to say there are no failures in homeschooling. She was simply trying to point out that there are many attacks on this board about homeschooling failures which have not been back up by proof. It's a simple request, I'm interested in seeing all these failures too. ;)

 
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November 20, 2006, 7:20 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jj1977

It is called "CAREFUL RESEARCH" and "READING INTENSEVELY ABOUT A TOPIC" - that's how people can feel comfortable making such statements (which by the way are NOT impossible but well documented).


Yeah, but HOW do you know...how do you know that all the kids who are home schooled are being documented? 

The bad home schooled families I know myself sure don't bother to document anything. They are certainly not having their kids tested, interviewed, studied, apply for college or speaking publicly about home schooling.
 
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November 20, 2006, 7:27 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

Hey Julie, we agree. :)

 It is not the problem of the public school (entirely) that children are not doing well. It is the parents responsibility to ensure their children succeed in their education. I really do feel for teachers at public schools. There are too many students per teacher, too many parents who do not care, complete lack of discipline options, tests to teach to, etc.....

 

The pregnant kids, sexually mature kids, terroristic kids those are all wonderful examples of why my children are not in the public school system.

 

I understand why you would look at a parent who is obviously not parenting and suggest they should not homeschool their children. But honestly, they are not the ones who are homeschooling. Homeschooling takes patience, complete devotion, lower income, and dedication to name a few things. Generally speaking, the parents who aren't involved with the public school system are not the parents who homeschool. Perhaps one of those types of parents would try homeschooling. But, I'm pretty sure if they are that non-interested in parenting they will certainly not stick with homeschoooling.

I do understand parents' frustrations with schools. That first school where I taught was in a high crime, high transient, low income area. it was TOUGH. Then the district rezoned the schools, we lost an entire neighborhood to another school, and it was like NIGHT and DAY. I DO understand parents concerns when they are doing everything they can and their kids are trapped in a classroom with other kids who simply waste time and force the teacher to spend an inordinate amount of time on discipline.

 

But honestly, they are not the ones who are homeschooling.

 

Not primarily, no. But some do try, and they set their kids even further back than they were before. When those kids get returned to the public schools, the schools are again blamed for the child's shortcomings.

 

My concern is that as the homeschool movement grows, many parents (and specifically the ones we have been referring to here) will think that they can and should homeschool. Very few parents think of themselves as non-interested, they rationalize their shortcomings and schools have become a convenient scapegoat.

 

I don't advocate banning homeschooling. I would like people to be more responsible when discussing what homeschooling is all about. I would like to not just see statistics flaunted, but real information about what it takes to make sure your child lives up to those statistics.  I used to work for WEIGHT Watchers and I could give you all kinds of positive statistics on weight loss through Weight Watchers, but the bottom line is, it is WORK. The weight doesn't just come off because you are willing to show up at a meeting a pay money. I would like to see more of what it takes to BE successful, not just the promos - if you get my analogy.

 

 

 
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November 20, 2006, 7:28 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

"Show us these failures, please."

Are you trying to say that there is NO failure in all of home schooling?

I don't think at all that she was trying to say there are no failures in homeschooling. She was simply trying to point out that there are many attacks on this board about homeschooling failures which have not been back up by proof. It's a simple request, I'm interested in seeing all these failures too. ;)

Well..I don't have any such information because I never once said there was...ALL I said was that I have seen some horrid failures of home schooling with my own eyes.

Go ahead...find me any post I made where I make a general attack saying that home school is full of failures.

Go on...I'll wait...

This defensiveness is now a runaway train that is just making assumptions as it speeds along.


 
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November 20, 2006, 7:31 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

"Show us these failures, please."

Are you trying to say that there is NO failure in all of home schooling?

I don't think at all that she was trying to say there are no failures in homeschooling. She was simply trying to point out that there are many attacks on this board about homeschooling failures which have not been back up by proof. It's a simple request, I'm interested in seeing all these failures too. ;)

Purple Penny: I am just already bored with this conversation because those who are promoting home schooling seem to be denying the fact that there are kids who are failed horridly in a home school environment.

Sneakers: And I'm bored, too.  Show us these failures, please.


 
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