Dr. Phil.com - Messageboards - 11/24 Great School Debate

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November 21, 2006, 9:54 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

Hon, I did not say you personally made attacks about homeschooling. I said there have been many attacks on homeschooling on this board.

I would like to comment on the defensiveness of homeschooles. Homeschooling is not accepted by main stream media. (Dr. Phil's show will be evidence of that fact.) In turn, homeschooling is not accepted by the masses. Many simply believe the media hype and some simply do not have enough information concerning the subject to form an educated opinion.

Homeschoolers have to be on the defensive, unfortunately. I have hired a legal team to defend my right to homeschool and I am not the only one. More than 80,000 homeschool families are members of HSLDA, Home School Legal Defense Association.

Even the Director of Pupil Personnel (DPP) in my local county attacks homeschool rights. As a homeschooler in the state of Kentucky I am required to:

1. Provide approximately 990 instructional hours.

2. Teach Reading, writing, spelling, grammar, history, mathematics, and civics
3. Notify the local board of education of those students in attendance within two weeks of start of school year. The letter of intent to homeschool must include: names, ages, and places of residence of all pupils.
4. Maintain an attendance register and scholarship reports.

Immediately after filing my letter of intent to homeschool I received a letter from the DPP informing me that my letter was incomplete. He sent an obviously altered copy of the state requirements which included:

1. Date of birth of the children.

2. Date homeschool instruction will begin.

3. Student's social security numbers.

4. Current home phone number.

These requirements are not legally required. I had to contact my lawyer to deal with the situation. In fact, the county's request for homeschooled students' social security numbers violates federal privacy law! Why would the DPP be interested in my children's dates of birth and social security numbers you may ask? Funding. He was trying to get funding for his public school. This DPP had no intentions of ensuring a quality eduation for my children, he wanted more funding.

Unfortunately, this situation is not rare. As a result homeschoolers do have to be a bit defensive. But, in the end,aren't we all? I could very easily use your response as a sign of defensiveness too.

Please do not call me "hon"....I am so baffled at the level of rudeness, defensiveness and sheer condescension on the part of some of you.

For the last time, I am for home schooling in some instances and am considering doing it myself...I came here to hear about discuss the ups and downs of home schooling and instead I get to hear condescending lectures on how perfect home schooling is with out any recognition that it has a bad side. That isn't a balanced look at the topic. It's just rhetoric.

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purplepenny

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November 21, 2006, 9:57 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: randomaccess

Going back to an earlier post, November 18, 2006, 3:43 pm PST, we find this debate:

"I will agree that homeschooling is not for everyone, it is only for people who truly care about the education their child receives." (princess1)

for which there was this reply:

"So parents who don't home school don't care about the education of their children. Wow!

As a former school administrator... [... I have a Masters in education, and I have no plans to home school my two children. I take great offense at you insinuating that I don't truly care about my children's education." (julie1418)

_____________________

In our home school, we studied Venn diagrams at the fourth/fifth grade level. Venn diagrams are sets of circles which represent logical or mathematical relationships. In the debate above, a large circle would represent people who truly care about the education their child receives. Another smaller circle positioned mostly within the large circle would represent home educators. There would still be a significant area inside the large circle but outside the smaller circle that would correspond to parents who care about their child's education but have opted for a different school choice. This is the position described by princess1.

In this Venn diagram, all parents who care are in the large circle. All home schooling parents are in the small circle. The sliver of yellow where the small circle lies outside the large circle would represent the miniscule minority of parents who have filed the paperwork to home school but haven't cared to try beyond that.

Why would a former school administrator not be able to understand a logical concept at a 10 year-old's level? Why would she jump to the conclusion that she was thrown outside the loop of the large circle and become greatly offended? princess1 was merely agreeing that parents in the yellow area should not be home schooling.

I have an idea for one of Dr. Phil's show topics; how about: What Are Those Teacher's Colleges Really Teaching?

You do know that can't just make a Venn Diagram with out some kind of real numbers, studies or research to back it up. Just cause it's a Venn Diagram doesn't mean it's TRUE! LOL

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julie1418

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November 21, 2006, 9:58 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: randomaccess

Going back to an earlier post, November 18, 2006, 3:43 pm PST, we find this debate:

"I will agree that homeschooling is not for everyone, it is only for people who truly care about the education their child receives." (princess1)

for which there was this reply:

"So parents who don't home school don't care about the education of their children. Wow!

As a former school administrator... [... I have a Masters in education, and I have no plans to home school my two children. I take great offense at you insinuating that I don't truly care about my children's education." (julie1418)

_____________________

In our home school, we studied Venn diagrams at the fourth/fifth grade level. Venn diagrams are sets of circles which represent logical or mathematical relationships. In the debate above, a large circle would represent people who truly care about the education their child receives. Another smaller circle positioned mostly within the large circle would represent home educators. There would still be a significant area inside the large circle but outside the smaller circle that would correspond to parents who care about their child's education but have opted for a different school choice. This is the position described by princess1.

In this Venn diagram, all parents who care are in the large circle. All home schooling parents are in the small circle. The sliver of yellow where the small circle lies outside the large circle would represent the miniscule minority of parents who have filed the paperwork to home school but haven't cared to try beyond that.

Why would a former school administrator not be able to understand a logical concept at a 10 year-old's level? Why would she jump to the conclusion that she was thrown outside the loop of the large circle and become greatly offended? princess1 was merely agreeing that parents in the yellow area should not be home schooling.

I have an idea for one of Dr. Phil's show topics; how about: What Are Those Teacher's Colleges Really Teaching?

Please do some research on implied meaning. I really do not wish to enter a debate with princess as I feel we are trying to debate civilly. I will explain the problem with her statement for you since you went to all the trouble of making a diagram for me.

Here is the original quote:

"I will agree that homeschooling is not for everyone, it is only for people who truly care about the education their child receives." (princess1

While I agree that your interpretation, and most likely the poster's intent, was that uncaring parents should NOT homeschool, there are MANY meanings that can be inferred.

Parents who don't homeschool don't truly care.

All parents who care should homeschool.

Being a caring parent is the primary factor in one's ability to homeschool.

ETC.

When writing or speaking, especially in a debate on a VERY sensitive topic, the onus is on the WRITER to make sure he/she has chosen the exact words to best make the intended meaning clear. This is why politicians get into so much trouble. They make loaded statements without considering all the possible meanings or implications of their words.

In retrospect, Princess probably was not intending to offend. I would imagine in her zeal to make her case, she probably just didn't choose the best words. Had she written, Parents who do not truly care about their children's education should NOT homeschool, I would have replied "BRAVO!"

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hawthornefae

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November 21, 2006, 10:34 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

My husband's Aunt is an 'unschooler'...her children are sharply behind when it comes to every subject...I personally find it to be a very irresponsible thing to do. Our society requires education and society benefits from it. Not everything is learned as a side effect of living. That's ridiculous.

There are alot of problems with this statement. For one, you are basing an entire thought on a small experience. I see this happen all the time. Because someone knows one person who homeschools, they know how it ekes out for every family and individual. An example of this: a mother is nursing her one year old and is regaled with stories of the friend of a friend whose five year old would rip her shirt off in the grocery store. I don't see how one gets from point A to point B.

Secondly, 'sharply behind' is a very relative thing. The children may not meet the public school systems standards, but chances are they know a lot of things that kids in public/private schools miss out on. My niece at 2 years of age wanted to be a palentologist, she knew about a variety of species of animals by their scientific names, and used adult language. This was at an age that there was not a school that would have accepted her. As you can imagine, at 12 years of age, she is blowing many adults out of the water with her knowledge. Perhaps it would surprise you to know that she is homeschooled.

Thirdly, 'our society requires education', again, you have a very narrow view of education. Education does not have to include sitting behind a desk with a pencil in hand, especially for people like myself that are visual/spatial learners. Public school failed me miserably, causing defiance and making me into a social outcast. I could not survive in the vast ocean of students, knowing that my thoughts were of no value to anyone.

And the fourth issue here is the assumption that children who are 'unschooled' will not seek out the book learning that you are referring to. I don't know about you, but when I was a child, I would read through my family's encyclopedias on the weekends for FUN. The homeschooled and unschooled children that I know love to learn because that is the focus of their family life.

One of my six year old daughter's favorite subjects is anatomy, which isn't taught in first grade public school. If it weren't for my penchant for education, she wouldn't learn about blood vessels and white blood cells.

I fully support the right that every parent has to educate their child at home. I support it and I believe it in. And my daughter goes to school 3 blocks away from our house five mornings a week, where she deals with stress and trying to navigate a social climate that is already very complex. She comes home saying phrases that are not permitted in our home and I spend plenty of time back-peddling and trying to rebuild our values. It often feels like a waste.

I send her to public school only because she craves the stimulation of a busy environment, even though she is lost in it. I also send her because I'm not a strongly social person and would find it wearing to meet her social needs through homeschooling groups. In fact, education is the only reason that I don't have for sending her to school.

I'm just sick to death of all of the stereotypes that people choose to make about others, as IF they knew what happens in their home.

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winterwarmth

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November 21, 2006, 10:38 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

Please do not call me "hon"....I am so baffled at the level of rudeness, defensiveness and sheer condescension on the part of some of you.

For the last time, I am for home schooling in some instances and am considering doing it myself...I came here to hear about discuss the ups and downs of home schooling and instead I get to hear condescending lectures on how perfect home schooling is with out any recognition that it has a bad side. That isn't a balanced look at the topic. It's just rhetoric.

I agree with you. Our family has been homeschooling for 4 years now, and even in this short experience, I can say with confidence that there indeed are ups and downs to it. But for me, the ups and downs are situational and not with the idea that I think homeschooling in general won't "work". For us, it's not really a "method of education", but rather encompasses our whole life. The education is integrated, and we don't really have a separate and divorced "education life" and "other life". We embrace all we learn in all facets, and nuture what needs to be nurtured.

I think what many people refer to as "perfect" is the bigger picture, of having complete jurisdiction over your own lives and not having some outside institution dictate to you what you should be, and which influences your child "must have" in order to succeed. Many people willingly hand over that duty to outside control, and if it's working for them, then I can't judge that it's not.

I actually answered this post to attempt to itemize some of the downsides, and for us I can't really think of any of any significance, except perhaps, sometimes an interesting activity or event will come up and the money won't be there, but even then, that's a personal thing. Whether or not one has money for something has nothing to do with whether PS or homeschooling "works". We tend to go for most of the public and community events, like free museum days, the library, multicultural festivals, etc etc, as it is.

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purplepenny

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November 21, 2006, 10:57 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: winterwarmth

I agree with you. Our family has been homeschooling for 4 years now, and even in this short experience, I can say with confidence that there indeed are ups and downs to it. But for me, the ups and downs are situational and not with the idea that I think homeschooling in general won't "work". For us, it's not really a "method of education", but rather encompasses our whole life. The education is integrated, and we don't really have a separate and divorced "education life" and "other life". We embrace all we learn in all facets, and nuture what needs to be nurtured.

I think what many people refer to as "perfect" is the bigger picture, of having complete jurisdiction over your own lives and not having some outside institution dictate to you what you should be, and which influences your child "must have" in order to succeed. Many people willingly hand over that duty to outside control, and if it's working for them, then I can't judge that it's not.

I actually answered this post to attempt to itemize some of the downsides, and for us I can't really think of any of any significance, except perhaps, sometimes an interesting activity or event will come up and the money won't be there, but even then, that's a personal thing. Whether or not one has money for something has nothing to do with whether PS or homeschooling "works". We tend to go for most of the public and community events, like free museum days, the library, multicultural festivals, etc etc, as it is.

Thank you very much for a measured and respectful response. Really, thank you.

"The education is integrated, and we don't really have a separate and divorced "education life" and "other life". We embrace all we learn in all facets, and nature what needs to be nurtured."

Luckily my husband and I have been naturally like that our whole lives. We watch documentaries for fun if we want to watch TV. When driving down the highway we will notice things like strata layers in mountains. Things like that. Learning, discovering and understanding is the richest most exciting part of live in our home. Our favorite family activities revolve around learning and seeing new things. Like you said, museums, the zoo, the aviary going to the mountains...anything having to do with nature we love.

The things about home schooling that discourage me are the fact that as an atheist I do not belong to a church, and being in a highly religious area there aren't a lot of activities outside of church or school for kids to make many friends...but I am sure there are many ways to deal with that.

Also, I worry about my personal burn out as a SAHM and having a husband who works 50+ hours a week.

These are the things I worry about myself.

Again, thank you very much for a respectful response...really.

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fredastare

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November 21, 2006, 10:59 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mammato4boys

Yet I will repeatedly state that ALL schooling must be subject to close monitoring and scrutiny of implemented standards set by the National Govt.

For without standards, how can one truly understand their progressive potential?

I don't like the idea of national government monitoring at all.

1. The national government makes silly laws which aren't working for the public schools. Why inflict them on homeschools?

2. Homeschools in most states are considered private schools. Private schools are excluded from government intervention.

3. The government does not know what is best for my child.

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled yesterday against parents who sued their local school district after their elementary-age children were given a sexually charged survey, saying there is "no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children."

The three-judge panel of the full court further ruled that parents "have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students."

We agree [with the previous ruling, and hold that there is no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children, either independent of their right to direct the upbringing and education of their children or encompassed by it. We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students.

What if the government began monitoring all parental activity for the "best interests of the child" would you agree? By this I mean, if the foster care system decided to implement rules and regulations and expecting you to not only follow these regulations but expected you to report your results. Keep in mind that if the foster care system is not completely pleased they will attempt to remove your children from your family home and insert them into the foster care system for the "good of the child".

Oh sure, we would have some parents who more than likely could use some serious parenting help. But, does that give the government the right to rule over all families to search out the bad apples?

While I can agree that governments are subject to error. I don't not feel that the laws are "silly" at all. Certainly there is a need for revaluation and improvement within the public school system.

I didn't realize that Private Schools are excluded from govt. intervention. Again, that is a mistake IMO.

The government likely doesn't know whats best for any child.......yet they must protect all children and their rights is what I'm saying.

What if the government began monitoring all parental activity for the "best interests of the child" would you agree?

I would agree.

As far as the whole Foster Care scenario you implied about, I can't see that happening. Yet I am grateful that there are laws and agencies in place (albeit not perfect ) in order to protect children.

I do not feel that there is a poster on this board that isn't fully competent in raising their children in an extraordinary fashion. My point is that I feel strongly that there must be some form of accountability and standards that access the quality of education every child receives.

In a democracy it is up to the government to ensure the highest quality of education for our children. Particularly ensuring that *some* parents that do not have the children's best interests at heart aren't able to abuse a child.

I hope that you can better understand my point of view. I am not against homeschooling, I am only concerned for the rights of the children.

Fredi

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carolina1

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November 21, 2006, 11:01 am PST

generalize

Quote From: elffie

I am not going to homeschool, I don't think it will benefit MY children. I don't think it would be healthy for them to be with me all day, they need to get out and be with other kids their age in an environment that will support that. Plus, I want them to get the best education they can get, even if that means public schools. There are lots of Merit schools in the town my children will be going to and the kids score very high on their tests.

The only difference I see between Public and Private schools is the cost. Also, that some private schools are religious based. You can find the same classes in public school without the cost. I don't think we need to push our children academically, and honestly I think it's a little too much to have a kindergardner doing 3rd grade work. Now, if they child is capable of doing it, then so be it, but I do not think it's wise to push kids while they are so young.

There is bullying and crime if private school as well. I had a friend that went to a Christian private school and the kids there did drugs and had sex on the property! Same thing that was going on in the public school system.

I don't think homeschooling really teaches responsibility. Some of the time it is not structured and it is only for a couple hours a day. Going out of the house to school reinforces responsibility and teaching the student to be liable for their actions. Sure, there were a few days when I didn't want to go to school, but I could not have stayed home. I would not be socially mature, but that is me, it could be different for others. Plus, leaving home to go to school prepared me for the real world, where you leave your house and you do what you have to do, even if you don't like it.

So it looks like public schooling for my kids.

Please don't generalize what homeschoolers do--some may follow a structure as you've stated, some may not. I have homeschooled for 9 years and my kids are extremely responsible. It's not a matter of homeschooling=lack of responsibility, it's a matter of parenting=responsibility or the lack of. My oldest at 13 has already developed a business of her own with a friend. She's in a craft fair in a week and a half and has prepared herself with a structure to properly prepare for it. I've not guided her, she has structured herself. I believe that this is a result of the structure I've established for her since the beginning. I'm a structured person therefore it's naturally rubbed off on my kids.

As for the social aspect, my kids have plenty of social opportunities and have many friends. But I also believe one of the many upsides to homeschooling is that my kids have naturally learned how to converse with adults and carry a conversation.

For anyone outside of the homeschooling community on this board my only suggestion would be to not throw in your 2 cents until you've actually seen for yourself what we as homeschoolers do--and not just a couple of us, but a group as a whole.

There are good and bad, responsible and irresponsible in every group. We cannot judge the success based upon some failures.

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purplepenny

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November 21, 2006, 11:02 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: hawthornefae

There are alot of problems with this statement. For one, you are basing an entire thought on a small experience. I see this happen all the time. Because someone knows one person who homeschools, they know how it ekes out for every family and individual. An example of this: a mother is nursing her one year old and is regaled with stories of the friend of a friend whose five year old would rip her shirt off in the grocery store. I don't see how one gets from point A to point B.

Secondly, 'sharply behind' is a very relative thing. The children may not meet the public school systems standards, but chances are they know a lot of things that kids in public/private schools miss out on. My niece at 2 years of age wanted to be a palentologist, she knew about a variety of species of animals by their scientific names, and used adult language. This was at an age that there was not a school that would have accepted her. As you can imagine, at 12 years of age, she is blowing many adults out of the water with her knowledge. Perhaps it would surprise you to know that she is homeschooled.

Thirdly, 'our society requires education', again, you have a very narrow view of education. Education does not have to include sitting behind a desk with a pencil in hand, especially for people like myself that are visual/spatial learners. Public school failed me miserably, causing defiance and making me into a social outcast. I could not survive in the vast ocean of students, knowing that my thoughts were of no value to anyone.

And the fourth issue here is the assumption that children who are 'unschooled' will not seek out the book learning that you are referring to. I don't know about you, but when I was a child, I would read through my family's encyclopedias on the weekends for FUN. The homeschooled and unschooled children that I know love to learn because that is the focus of their family life.

One of my six year old daughter's favorite subjects is anatomy, which isn't taught in first grade public school. If it weren't for my penchant for education, she wouldn't learn about blood vessels and white blood cells.

I fully support the right that every parent has to educate their child at home. I support it and I believe it in. And my daughter goes to school 3 blocks away from our house five mornings a week, where she deals with stress and trying to navigate a social climate that is already very complex. She comes home saying phrases that are not permitted in our home and I spend plenty of time back-peddling and trying to rebuild our values. It often feels like a waste.

I send her to public school only because she craves the stimulation of a busy environment, even though she is lost in it. I also send her because I'm not a strongly social person and would find it wearing to meet her social needs through homeschooling groups. In fact, education is the only reason that I don't have for sending her to school.

I'm just sick to death of all of the stereotypes that people choose to make about others, as IF they knew what happens in their home.

I am not choosing to make a stereotype, I am simply showing that from my experience in what I've seen in my life with my own eyes, unschooling can be a scary prospect. What I have seen, it's not working.

If it works for you great.

"Thirdly, 'our society requires education', again, you have a very narrow view of education. Education does not have to include sitting behind a desk with a pencil in hand, especially for people like myself that are visual/spatial learners. Public school failed me miserably, causing defiance and making me into a social outcast. I could not survive in the vast ocean of students, knowing that my thoughts were of no value to anyone."

I do NOT have a narrow view of education...again, for the 50th time...I am FOR home schooling in many instances...ok? My comments were about some very lazy "unschoolers" I know...I have since, in this thread, learned a bit more about "unschooling"

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julie1418

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November 21, 2006, 11:07 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: hawthornefae

There are alot of problems with this statement. For one, you are basing an entire thought on a small experience. I see this happen all the time. Because someone knows one person who homeschools, they know how it ekes out for every family and individual. An example of this: a mother is nursing her one year old and is regaled with stories of the friend of a friend whose five year old would rip her shirt off in the grocery store. I don't see how one gets from point A to point B.

Secondly, 'sharply behind' is a very relative thing. The children may not meet the public school systems standards, but chances are they know a lot of things that kids in public/private schools miss out on. My niece at 2 years of age wanted to be a palentologist, she knew about a variety of species of animals by their scientific names, and used adult language. This was at an age that there was not a school that would have accepted her. As you can imagine, at 12 years of age, she is blowing many adults out of the water with her knowledge. Perhaps it would surprise you to know that she is homeschooled.

Thirdly, 'our society requires education', again, you have a very narrow view of education. Education does not have to include sitting behind a desk with a pencil in hand, especially for people like myself that are visual/spatial learners. Public school failed me miserably, causing defiance and making me into a social outcast. I could not survive in the vast ocean of students, knowing that my thoughts were of no value to anyone.

And the fourth issue here is the assumption that children who are 'unschooled' will not seek out the book learning that you are referring to. I don't know about you, but when I was a child, I would read through my family's encyclopedias on the weekends for FUN. The homeschooled and unschooled children that I know love to learn because that is the focus of their family life.

One of my six year old daughter's favorite subjects is anatomy, which isn't taught in first grade public school. If it weren't for my penchant for education, she wouldn't learn about blood vessels and white blood cells.

I fully support the right that every parent has to educate their child at home. I support it and I believe it in. And my daughter goes to school 3 blocks away from our house five mornings a week, where she deals with stress and trying to navigate a social climate that is already very complex. She comes home saying phrases that are not permitted in our home and I spend plenty of time back-peddling and trying to rebuild our values. It often feels like a waste.

I send her to public school only because she craves the stimulation of a busy environment, even though she is lost in it. I also send her because I'm not a strongly social person and would find it wearing to meet her social needs through homeschooling groups. In fact, education is the only reason that I don't have for sending her to school.

I'm just sick to death of all of the stereotypes that people choose to make about others, as IF they knew what happens in their home.

Would you PLEASE read all or at least some of Penny's postings on homeschooling. She is mostly in favor of it, she is even considering it for her own child.

Why is that nobody can question homeschooling or even suggest that not every homeschooler is doing well without bringing out such defensiveness?

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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

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11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

generalize

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate