Dr. Phil.com - Messageboards - 11/24 Great School Debate

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November 22, 2006, 2:01 pm PST

Just fine, huh?

Quote From: jesusislord

why are so many get upset about where the kids should go to public school or not. i went to public school and i turned out just fine!! homeschooling really don't help kids to learn much. they need to be in public schools. they can learn more there. i see nothing wrong with public schools. the only thing i see is they need to keep the schools more safe and keep drugs and other bad stuff out of schools!!! i always keep our schools and kids in my prayers!

Ok, all I can say is that the quote above does not have one sentence properly capitalized, and your use of the English language is lacking... "homeschooling really don't help kids to learn much".... but, I guess you turned out just fine!!! (as you say)

Jeepers, give me a break!

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julie1418

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November 22, 2006, 2:03 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: alasandra2003

Well the public schools do NOT give you educated people that can think for themselves, for the most part they give you mindless drones who have managed to memorize facts.

How does ignorance infringe on your rights? You do not have the right to decide how other people should live their lives. And just because you dislike someones beliefs doesn't make them WRONG.

Why do you think it is OK to infringe on homeschoolers rights? We have a much RIGHT to our beliefs/lifestyle as you do.

Why don't you try a little TOLERANCE and stop trying to infringe on the rights of homeschoolers.

Have you read any of her other posts? She is not against homeschooling. She is considering homeschooling for her own child. Sadly, she has been so turned off by much of the anger on this board that she has probably been pushed in the opposite direction.

By the way, we DO have a vested interest in insuring that our society is educated. If we allow parents to simply NOT educate their children (not to imply homeschooling = lack of education), then our democracy will fail. You should be VERY concerned that ALL children are given the best education possible, regardless of how they are schooled. I plan to have my children educated either in public or possibly a private school. I still CARE that homeschooled kids get a good education. So if the crackhead Mom down the street decides she is going to "homeschool" because she is tired of the school reporting her for truancy and neglect, I DO care, and I DO want someone to say NO!

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mammato4boys

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November 22, 2006, 2:06 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

You are going to have to forgive my ignorance - KWIM?

I do not know the current legislative proposals, so I may very well be against them too. My state currently requires homeschooled students to take the yearly state exams, but there is NO follow through. The last school where I was an Assistant Principal had five homeschooled students in our zone. We were required to notify them, in writing, of the tests. We also were required to give the parents a large degree of flexibility in when the test would be given and if their child would be in a room with other students or alone. Not one homeschooling parent so much as contacted the school much less brought their child for the test.

I would not be opposed to a simple enforcement of existing regulation. Maybe the problem is that many homeschool parents are reacting to legislation they see in the works, and the rest of us think you are reacting to ANY accountability.

The last school where I was an Assistant Principal had five homeschooled students in our zone. We were required to notify them, in writing, of the tests. We also were required to give the parents a large degree of flexibility in when the test would be given and if their child would be in a room with other students or alone. Not one homeschooling parent so much as contacted the school much less brought their child for the test.

Here are the laws concerning testing of homeschoolers in your state, Florida:

Standardized Tests: Only required for parents complying with the home school law in Option 1 above. Parents must do one of the following each year. Their children must:

1) take any nationally normed student achievement test administered by any certified teacher,

2) or the child must take a "state student assessment test used by the school district and administered by a certified teacher, at a location and under testing condition approved by the school district,"

3) or be evaluated by a Florida certified teacher,

4) or be evaluated by a licensed psychologist,

5) or be "evaluated by any other valid measurement tool as mutually agreed upon." The parent must file a copy of the evaluation with the local school superintendent annually. There is no specific statutory deadline.

"The school superintendent shall review and accept the results of the annual evaluation…. If the pupil does not demonstrate educational progress at a level commensurate with his ability, the superintendent shall notify the parent in writing...." The parent shall have one year to provide "remedial instruction" to the pupil. At the end of the "one year probationary period" the student shall be reevaluated to determine if he has progressed "commensurate with his ability." Fla. Stat. Ann. § 1002.41(2).

So, unless you were in direct communication with the school superintendent you wouldn't know if those children took the test. There are simply too many locations available for testing. Perhaps there was a reason they did not wish to test in your school. Was it hostile towards homeschoolers?

Also, I can't think of a single reason why a homeschooler would register with the public school then refuse to test their children according to the state law. That, quite literally, is asking to have your homeschooling freedom yanked.

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preraph

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November 22, 2006, 2:10 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: emmiedahl

Here's why I homeschool. It's a pretty typical homeschool story.

I began homeschooling because my son is gifted and the schools were unable to accommodate his needs. Most schools don't offer gifted classes anymore. For five years, he was expected to finish his work (he did so quickly, being 4 or 5 grade levels ahead of his classmates) and then sit perfectly quietly for the remaining class period--usually about 50 minutes. This took up over half of his waking hours. Then, he came home with about an hour of worksheet busywork.

I won't even get into the weird yet constant politics or the time the teachers put black armbands on the kids and took them for a "field trip" to the district office to protest the new teaching contracts. The teachers complained to me that he didn't enjoy his classwork, that he would ask for more advanced work. How dare he ask for special treatment! Doesn't he understand that we have 25 students in this class? How selfish to take time away from the kids who actually need instruction!

That was the attitude, year after sorrowful year, in a school with high test scores that is considered an example of all that public education can and should be. I wish I pulled him out earlier. Now, our family's schedule is as follows: Academic work in core subjects (language arts, math, history, science) in the mornings Monday through Thursday. Free study Monday and Wednesday afternoons. Tuesday and Thursday afternoons and all day Friday we have various social obligations--a PE class, chess club, religious youth group, etc.

All in all, a well-rounded life and a very typical homeschooled existence. I am involved in several homeschool groups and co-ops, and we are very average. When the yearly test results come out, most of our homeschoolers found themselves in the 80th or 90th percentiles, which is the national average for homeschooled children.

Now tell me, how is that selfish? convenient? abusive? isolated? not in the child's best interest? Why would I take him back to school? What could they possibly contribute? Maybe he should sit through another afternoon of multiplication instead of learning Algebra II? Be held back from his potential for another 5 years?

If your child is gifted, what makes you think YOU are qualified to educate him but an entire school system isn't?

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dglana

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November 22, 2006, 2:12 pm PST

I do both.

I teach in the public school part time and I homeschoool. I think the real factor for schooling success is the parents. My kids are successful because we work hard at our schooling. The students that I have who are successful are either very motivated themselves or have parents who put a high priority on education. I myself am a student with a 3.98 in my master's degree. My sons are in college after 11 years of homeschool and 1 year of public school. Their SAT scores were 1380 and 1320, and they only took the SAT once. I noticed a discussion on bullying in the public schools. Though educators don't want to admit it, the bullying factor increases when kids are grouped together. I saw it in my son's play groups, and I know we have a serious bullying problem in our elementary schools, so much so that we educators had specially anti-bullying training. People often worry about homeschooler's lacking in socialization, but fail to recognize that often the socialization kids get in public school is negative. I believe for a child to be have healthy socialization, they must be taught how to deal with people, how to deal with peer pressure, how to interact appropriately. All too often the attitude of parents and school is that kids work these things out for themselves. As a parent, that has not been my experience. I often sat down my sons and their friends when they were in conflict and talked through the conflicts with them, giving them direction and ideas for resolving the conflicts. When they were staying their friendships would end for one reason or another, I was sitting them down, discussing how they got to that point and trying to help them evaluate whether the time invested in the friendship was worth working things out or not and how they could work things out. Perhaps the bullying problem is greater because our parents failed to teach us how to resolve these problems and so we don't know how to teach our kids to resolve these problems. For too long we have expected kids to work things out for themselves and schools to teach our kids all they need to know. We have forgotten that we are the parents.

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winterwarmth

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November 22, 2006, 2:13 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

alasandra2003 wrote:
"Well the public schools do NOT give you educated people that can think for themselves, for the most part they give you mindless drones who have managed to memorize facts."
-----

As much of a passionate advocate of independent learning, I must say this part is not entirely true. Students are required to think and use their own brains to come to conclusions about things, and not only to memorize facts. The difference is that a public school is teaching different things under a set agenda and a set timetable. This keeps the classroom running smoothly.

A lot of people reading this board are public educators, and I think this is as blanket an assumption as the idea that "all unschoolers are lazy". I hope we can each reach consideration and respect for each other.

The difference here is that for many independent learners, what they might want to learn would not be embraced in a classroom with a set agenda, it may even disrupt or conflict with the other students.

For instance, at school I can't just waltz in and insist that my son not do much reading this month as he's got a real math thing going on, and therefore could he please put off reading "To kill a Mockingbird" until April? But at home, I can. He can set his own learning agenda and add to it his own flair.

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preraph

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November 22, 2006, 2:15 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: alasandra2003

One the majority of parents love their children and have their best interest at heart. Two do you actually know any homeschoolers?

One of the reasons we homeschooled our children was because the local public schools decided to turn into socialist/communist institutions and require parents to dress their children like clones (mandatory school uniforms) in order to send their children to a public school.

The majority of homeschoolers are involved in a variety of activities. We did cub scouts and boys scouts and are currently doing recreational soccer with our youngest.

Our 17 year old is in his second year of college. He started college at 16 and is majoring in computer science. He also works after school. The second reason we choose to homeschool was he was more then able to do the school work for his grade and the public schools refused to promote him because the longer they can keep a warm body in the seat and collect federal and state funds the better as far as they are concerned who cares if the kids is learning anything.

So here's two people who took their kids out of school because they think they're smarter than the other kids. So YOU are more qualified to teach him than the entire school system?

BTW, I do agree with you about the clone clothing, but instead of just abdicating, I think everyone should help improve public schools and not let them get in such a state. Why? Because a lot of kids have no choice but to be schooled there. There's a lot more

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dglana

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November 22, 2006, 2:24 pm PST

I teach part time

Quote From: lillskr

I'll go check it out :). I'm not too familar with what schools are spending their money on. I just know teachers are having a hard time getting money for what they need (My kids aren't in school yet).

in one of the lowest paid districts in California. Our new teachers cannot afford to buy a home in our area. Our district received a raise from the state and yet does not want to give us an equivalent raise. We are at impasse. I've taught there for 6 years and we have gotten one raise in 6 years of 2.9%. We no longer receive money from the district for purchases such as pencils, dry erase markers, paper clips....; my first year we received a bag with these items at the beginning of the year; my second we received $20 budget per period for such supplies. I've been fortunate that most of the purchase requests I have made have been granted, but for my kids to go on field trips, we have to raise the money and pay for the trip. Field trips for our kids cost a great deal because the nearest big city is over 4 hours away. Our last joint field trip cost us $16,000 for a two night choir/band competition for 80 kids plus chaperones. I couldn't tell you how or why the funds are what they are, but if as a homeschooler the state gave me the funds that my school gets per child each year, I could take a nice educational vacation and purchase a new computer every year. It costs me about $1000 to homeschool my children each year, that is much less than the cost of private schools. Our area only has one private school and it only goes to the 8th grade. There are no other options besides homeschooling.

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purplepenny

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November 22, 2006, 2:27 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

Well, meet one now. Hi, my name is Julie. I am a Stay at Home Mom of two toddlers, former teacher and school administrator. More than one homeschooling Mom has questioned me relentlessly about why I do not want to homeschool my children. Every time I try to provide MY reasons for not wanting to homeschool, it is taken as a personal attack against homeschooling. I am seldom allowed to get out of the conversation diplomatically. I am barraged with invalid statistics about homeschooling vs traditional schooling, and pretty much painted as not considering the best interests of my children.

This doesn't apply to anyone here, as I don't personally know anyone here, but I have found an additional reason for not wanting to homeschool. I simply do not like many of the homeschooling moms I have met, and I would be miserable if they became by default the core of my support or social system. Many of them are so militant on their beliefs, and they show such a craving to make everyone accept their way, that they are tedious and annoying.

"This doesn't apply to anyone here, as I don't personally know anyone here, but I have found an additional reason for not wanting to homeschool. I simply do not like many of the homeschooling moms I have met, and I would be miserable if they became by default the core of my support or social system. Many of them are so militant on their beliefs, and they show such a craving to make everyone accept their way, that they are tedious and annoying."

Quoted for truth.

Seriously. This too is a major concern for me in home schooling my kids.

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winterwarmth

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November 22, 2006, 2:34 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

Well, meet one now. Hi, my name is Julie. I am a Stay at Home Mom of two toddlers, former teacher and school administrator. More than one homeschooling Mom has questioned me relentlessly about why I do not want to homeschool my children. Every time I try to provide MY reasons for not wanting to homeschool, it is taken as a personal attack against homeschooling. I am seldom allowed to get out of the conversation diplomatically. I am barraged with invalid statistics about homeschooling vs traditional schooling, and pretty much painted as not considering the best interests of my children.

This doesn't apply to anyone here, as I don't personally know anyone here, but I have found an additional reason for not wanting to homeschool. I simply do not like many of the homeschooling moms I have met, and I would be miserable if they became by default the core of my support or social system. Many of them are so militant on their beliefs, and they show such a craving to make everyone accept their way, that they are tedious and annoying.

Hi again Julie,

I must say again how much I agree with you! Even though my choice is to homeschool, I completely agree with you!

Even as a homeschooler myself, much of my support network does not come from homeschool "groups" or whatnot. We have our social network via people from all walks of life and all kinds of education systems. I often don't even bring up homeschooling, and try to make sure the conversation doesn't last long if people try to get me to talk about it (unless they are interested in it specifically). It's among the don't talk about religion or politics rules of thumb (haha).

I am quite eager and willing to talk about it on a forum such as this which is set up for that precise purpose, but in my off-line life, I grow weary of answering questions for the mere purpose of public consumption, and don't like to be seen as someone trying to force my views on anyone. The point is, there is more to me than the fact that I (unschool) homeschool and I seek out others who share my interests. Such as fiber crafts and guitar. Many people know I homeschool, it does come up (we do get asked "where do your kids go to school?"), but it's not the basis of our associations with each other.

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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

Just fine, huh?

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

I do both.

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate

I teach part time

11/24 Great School Debate

11/24 Great School Debate