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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

Number of Replies: 4215
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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 22, 2006, 3:07 pm PST

Regarding more testing...

I think it's ludicrous. In New York State it is required that students have one standardized test per year or a written assessment of their work by a qualified professional. Requiring homeschoolers to have more than one standardized test is just wrong. In New York State, a homeschooled student cannot receive a high school diploma, therefore, they are left with two options. Option 1 is to get a GED. Option 2 is to go to a college under dual-enrollment status. The reason a student in New York State cannot obtain a high school diploma is because they can't get the lab requirements for the regents credits.  I don't think it is fair to require more of homeschoolers than is required by public schooled children. It will all come out on the test results if they are learning at home or not. We have to keep the school up to date with a letter of intent, an IHIP, quarterly reports, and a yearly standardized test, only to have our children be unable to participate in any extra curricular programs the district offers, any type of funding to help pay for the materials, and any type of tax write off for what we do buy. Granted, homeschooling is our choice, and we have chosen to foot the bill; however, for them to want even more say over how we choose to educate our children is ludicrous. I feel that my paperwork that I file is too much for what feedback we get anyway.  It makes me angry to have to deal with a high school who, in reality, has nothing to do with my children's education other than to receive the paperwork.
 
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November 22, 2006, 3:28 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: preraph

So here's two people who took their kids out of school because they think they're smarter than the other kids.  So YOU are more qualified to teach him than the entire school system? 

 

BTW, I do agree with you about the clone clothing, but instead of just abdicating, I think everyone should help improve public schools and not let them get in such a state.  Why?  Because a lot of kids have no choice but to be schooled there.  There's a lot more

I am only responsible for insuring MY KIDS get a good education. Although I do work for school choice for all parents, be it vouchers or what not. It's extremely selfish to expect parents who do have a choice to send their children to public schools  where they will receive a sub-standard education because not every one can send their kids to private school or homeschool, although parents who send their kids to private schools never seem to get the same amount of grief about this homeschoolers do.

 

Try not to let this shock you to much; but my eldest son's 4th grade teacher was the one that recommended I homeschool. She had tried to get the school board to promote him to the next grade level because he already had done all the work for the year and they were only into the second week of school. She basically said he was wasting his time in her class because there was nothing she could teach him (due to having to teach the other students what he already knew).

 
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November 22, 2006, 3:32 pm PST

Another one who has been there

 I retired after 37.5 years as a public school teacher.  My daughter, son-in-law, and sister-in-law are all public school teachers.  My children were educated in public schools. My son-in-law and I went to private schools.  I believe in public school TEACHERS, but know how often local school politics interfere with good teaching.  Every teacher I know subsidizes the school out of his or her pocket.  My tax consultant insisted that we keep track and our contribution in Elementary was around $4,000 a year.  It was less in Middle School and High School.

Still, my grandchildren will be going to private schools.  The reasons do not include dissatisfaction with public school teachers or administrators.  We live in a lovely suburban district.  However, on a daily basis we have seen sweet innocent children exposed to behavior that would shock their parents.  I spent time observing in kindergartens as a Chapter One Administrator.  Five-year-olds quoting Bevis and Butthead, acting out scenes from South Park are not a good influence.  I believe most of those children (and I did research this) were baby sat by older siblings and allowed to watch inappropriate television evenings. 

I am trying not to mention isolated cases, but trends I have noticed.  I do have to mention one second grade student who arrived several mornings "high".  A little detective work discovered his brother and friends were encouraging the youngster to smoke pot before school.  The parents had left for work and the older brother was in charge for only an hour, but that was enough.  The situation was taken care of, but I cannot imagine my grandchildren exposed to a high or drunk classmate at 8 years old nor Bevis and Butthead, or South Park language in kindergarten.  They might hear those things in private school as well, but it won't be as likely.

 
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November 22, 2006, 3:47 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: sneakers145

Gifted, children, are basically ignored in most school systems.  In the early grades, they're relegated to helping their peers.  As they get older, they may qualify for 'enrichment' programs, which is really just more homework.  It's assumed that smart kids will get by.  A lot of gifted kids are labeled ADHD.

 

I've seen it all too often in children of relatives and friends who were public schooled.  Three kids are now homeschooling and the other is back in PS with an IEP.

I understand the frustration of parents of gifted students. I am going to ask you to consider the dilemma from a different perspective. People who are qualified to teach gifted students are rare. It simply isn't a course of training many teachers pursue. Most teachers are people who were generally successful in school, so their minds work along the more traditional route. I taught some gifted kids in my Creative Writing class who frustrated ME greatly. Their minds just work differently (without going into a huge explanation).

 

My first year teaching I taught Drama. I was completely unqualified to teach drama, but it came under the English syllabus, nobody else wanted it, and I was hungry for a job. I did my best and eventually did a great job (if I do say so!), but it was not in any way my natural talent, and a teacher with a passion for it would have done a better job and probably would have found it much easier than I did. For me, just figuring it all out was like another full time job.

 

Before we completely blame schools for all the things we dislike, perhaps we could consider the possibility that most schools are doing the best with what they have.

 

 

 
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November 22, 2006, 3:48 pm PST

Crackhead Mom

Quote From: julie1418

Have you read any of her other posts? She is not against homeschooling. She is considering homeschooling for her own child. Sadly, she has been so turned off by much of the anger on this board that she has probably been pushed in the opposite direction.

 

By the way, we DO have a vested interest in insuring that our society is educated. If we allow parents to simply NOT educate their children (not to imply homeschooling = lack of education), then our democracy will fail. You should be VERY concerned that ALL children are given the best education possible, regardless of how they are schooled. I plan to have my children educated either in public or possibly a private school. I still CARE that homeschooled kids get a good education. So if the crackhead Mom down the street decides she is going to "homeschool" because she is tired of the school reporting her for truancy and neglect, I DO care, and I DO want someone to say NO!

I doubt you have to worry about the crackhead Mom down the street homeschooling, she probably LOVES having the public schools as an unpaid baby sitter. Homeschooling is hard work. I have lesson plans to make, lessons to teach, assignments to grade, test to give and test to grade. Seriously child abuse laws will deal with the crackhead Mom.  You don't need additional laws regulating homeschooling.

 

I think the reason for a lot of the anger on the board is a lot of the non homeschoolers do not seem willing to accept that homeschooling is a LEGAL valid educational choice and THEY want to regulate it or take the choice away from parents completely. Also by choosing unschoolers to represent all homeschoolers Dr. Phil presented the most controversial and misunderstood form of homeschooling. I'll be honest I don't really understand unschooling myself and am not completely comfortable with it. Although I do respect the parents who use that method of homeschooling and their right to choose it. Perhaps if he had chosen to present the different homeschooling methods there would be less hostility on the board and the majority of non-homeschoolers would have an easier time understanding why some parents choose to homeschool.

 

 

 

 

 
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November 22, 2006, 3:50 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: winterwarmth

Hi again Julie,

I must say again how much I agree with you!  Even though my choice is to homeschool, I completely agree with you!

Even as a homeschooler myself, much of my support network does not come from homeschool "groups" or whatnot.  We have our social network via people from all walks of life and all kinds of education systems.  I often don't even bring up homeschooling, and try to make sure the conversation doesn't last long if people try to get me to talk about it (unless they are interested in it specifically).  It's among the don't talk about religion or politics rules of thumb (haha).

I am quite eager and willing to talk about it on a forum such as this which is set up for that precise purpose, but in my off-line life, I grow weary of answering questions for the mere purpose of public consumption, and don't like to be seen as someone trying to force my views on anyone.  The point is, there is more to me than the fact that I (unschool) homeschool and I seek out others who share my interests.  Such as fiber crafts and guitar.  Many people know I homeschool, it does come up (we do get asked "where do your kids go to school?"), but it's not the basis of our associations with each other.


Okay - so I have met ONE homeschool mom to be friends!!
 
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November 22, 2006, 3:54 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

Why don't you try reading some of my other posts too...mmmkay?
I'll try. With tomorrow being Thanksgiving I don't have much free time.  If you seriously want to learn more about homeschooling you should drop by the Homeschool Cafe http://homeschoolcafe.blogspot.com/ or Why Homeschool  http://whyhomeschool.blogspot.com/
 
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November 22, 2006, 4:00 pm PST

I had to homeschool

The principal, a first grade teacher, and  the superintendent of our public school recommended homeschooling or private school for my son because of learning differences.   A family member had warned me that he needed to stifle his curiosity before he started school.  He asked too many questions.  He had learned to read on his own at 2 1/2 and could read his Alice in Wonderland lines at 4 1/2.  He just loved to learn. 

 

He started half-day Kindergarten at 5.  He told me it was fun but not very educational.  They wanted him to do lots of coloring (and it better be in the lines) and he hated coloring.  He couldn't understand why the others couldn't read.  The other kids liked sports; he liked science museums and musical theater.    The Kindergarten teacher suggested sending him to a transitional first grade so he would learn to color in the lines.  At least that is what I was told.  I found out later that they routinely recommend T-1 (a year in between kindergarten and first grade)  for all kids with spring and summer birthdays like my son.   It didn't matter that he could already read well and do math.   I thought that was crazy, so I talked to the principal.

 

The principal arranged for me to talk to a first grade teacher with training in special ed (including gifted).  I showed her samples of my son's work.   She told me it was my duty as a parent to see that my son received an appropriate education and made it sound like it wouldn't happen at that school.  She recommended homeschooling and told me about her friends who had homeschooled their child through high school.  This kid went on to do well in college.    

 

I had a choice to make.  Let him go to that school to receive a mediocre education and no accommodation for learning differences, let him learn to stifle his curiosity and learn to be bored, let him deal with the bullies at the school who pick on kids who are different, or figure out how to teach him myself without any training.   

 

After homeschooling for one year, my just turned seven year old son was given an individual achievement test by a certified educational psychologist.  He tested several grade levels ahead of agemates in both math and reading.   He also was found to have visual-motor integration problems as well as hypotonia which contributed to his handwriting difficulties.     They don't provide any kind of help for this kind of problem at our public school, so this was another reason I needed to homeschool my son.  He can now write legibly but can't write as much as they would require in school because his hands still tire quickly.  His developmental pediatrician suggested teaching him to type and he is learning to type at home.    

 

Because we homeschool, my son has more time to learn.  In school he would waste a lot of time doing busywork and then have to bring more of it home as homework.  Coloring is not part of our curriculum, so he has more time to learn history, science, literature, etc.   He and I enjoy reading and discussing classic books with rich vocabulary instead of the usual 3rd grade books he would have to read in school.   On one of our field trips, a motel employee was surprised to see my eight year old  reading a newspaper article out loud.   I told him that it was because he was homeschooled.  He can read the newspaper and comprehend advanced material because he was allowed to learn as much as he wanted.   He is very interested in current events and likes to listen to the news.  I believe it is wrong to hold back children who want to learn.  

 

When my son was first grade age we didn't use a curriculum and some might say what we did that year  was similar to unschooling because I let my son choose his reading material and let him learn what he wanted.  But I realized he would never learn to write more legibly if I didn't make him practice every day.  That is the only thing I have to make him practice.  He enjoys learning math, science, history, etc.  We use the "What Your __ Grader Needs to Know" series as a guide and get extra information on the internet and the library.  He reads historical fiction like Johnny Tremain to go along with the historical period we are studying.  We watch lots of educational shows on the History, Discovery, National Geographic and Science channels together.     He and I have fun learning together.   

 

My son would be considered a problem in school because he has way too much energy (but not ADHD) and needs to move around a lot during the day.  He needs breaks.  He learns better this way.  This would be a problem in school.  He is used to asking lots of questions and looking up the answers.     I don't want him to have to stifle his curiosity.

 

He has more friends than I ever had in public school because he is in a children's musical theater group with kids of all ages and he is also involved in church activities.    He is happy and learning more than he would in public school so I know we made the right choice. 

 

        

 
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November 22, 2006, 4:00 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

Well, meet one now. Hi, my name is Julie. I am a Stay at Home Mom of two toddlers, former teacher and school administrator. More than one homeschooling Mom has questioned me relentlessly about why I do not want to homeschool my children. Every time I try to provide MY reasons for not wanting to homeschool, it is taken as a personal attack against homeschooling. I am seldom allowed to get out of the conversation diplomatically. I am barraged with invalid statistics about homeschooling vs traditional schooling, and pretty much painted as not considering the best interests of my children.

 

This doesn't apply to anyone here, as I don't personally know anyone here, but I have found an additional reason for not wanting to homeschool. I simply do not like many of the homeschooling moms I have met, and I would be miserable if they became by default the core of my support or social system. Many of them are so militant on their beliefs, and they show such a craving to make everyone accept their way, that they are tedious and annoying.

I can relate to the tedious and annoying Mom's. Luckily I found an inclusive group and we are a pretty tolerant bunch.

 

I don't think you should have to homeschool if you don't want to. Only you know what is best for your children and I am sure you have very good reasons for choosing not to homeschool. It isn't for everyone.

 

 

 
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November 22, 2006, 4:04 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: sssmommy

unschooling does not mean letting kids grow up 'stupid' as you say.  they have the ability to learn ANYTHING that they CHOOSE to learn.  unschoolers might not be at grade level with their so-called peers...but whatever they are lacking in can easily be learned........when real life requires it.  unschoolers have not had the DESIRE TO LEARN squashed out of them.

 

as far as fighting for a job in the workplace....they simply won't be.  most unschoolers have no desire to join the typical workforce...they are more likely to start their own businesses.  they are innovative and the confines of what most people call 'work' are not what they are looking for in life.  they will not be so easily convinced that being a paid slave is the way to a happy life.

How can you start your own business if you can't do basic math skills to figure out your revenue, or you can't speak proper English to write a proposal? Being a "paid slave" is the way most people end up successful. It's called working hard to get what you want out of life, not settling for the bare minimum. I have worked with people who have actually gone to school, or were homeschooled, but didn't try to get anything out of it and they have such poor skills in general. It's very frustrating when you work in retail and a co-worker says something like "what's half off of $75?" and they have to search around for a calculator while the customer stands there waiting to see what their overall total is. Imagine something like that with the added "well I never had to learn that because my mom said that I shouldn't conform to society's torture of actually knowing what the hell I'm doing."
 
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