Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

The quickest way to answer is to remind the inquirer that public schools were originally and intentionally designed to utilize the principles of the industrial age to modernize education.

I don't doubt that this is a significant factor in how schools have developed, but I am becoming a bit of early American history buff. Thomas Jefferson was one of the first to plan for public education, and he hated industrialization. He wanted public education to insure the preservation of democracy. He didn't want an elite educated class vs. the uneducated masses as he feared that would result in a Monarchy government.

My school was pretty neutral about homeschooling. The only issue we ever had was a homeschooling parent who decided she wanted her child to take art at the school. The principal (I was the Assistant) was open to it although we would be given no funds for her attendance. The mother grew extremely angry the time she wanted her child to take an art class didn't correspond with her daughter's age group. She wanted the school to change the schedule to give art at the time she wanted.

Other than that, most of the teachers were too busy taking care of their own job demands to be all that concerned with what homeschoolers were doing. We honestly had very little interaction with homeschoolers. You need to understand that I worked in a very low income school where many of the parents had very little education. Many were from Puerto Rico and their public school system is really bad. The school had enough to worry about. Seriously.

I was the testing coordinator for the school and was responsible for the physical security of the tests. When I returned the unused booklets to the district testing coordinator, I was told not to worry about the kids not showing up, I only needed to make sure that I documented my efforts to make the test available. There would be no other follow up. Granted, this was about six years ago, and things may have changed. In MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, the school district and state had very little interest in tracking homeschoolers. It was more of a CYA.

I have sent my boys to private school (a total of four years); I homeschooled both boys for four years; for another four years I homeschooled my youngest while the older son went to public school.   Currently, my youngest   son is going to public school.   All of these years were AWESOME even though none of them were "perfect". 

No matter where they went to school, however, I was involved in their education, and my husband and I always considered ourselves to be our sons' first and primary "teacher".    I would have to say that the homeschool years were the best years.  I would also have to say that they were the hardest years at times, too.    It was such a privilege to learn with my children, to guide them in their discovery of the world, to have the time to discuss anything and everything with them, and to get to really really know them.     We were able to make the most of their (and my) strengths and weaknesses.   It was truly an amazing adventure that we did together.    For all the nights I went to sleep and dreamed phonics charts and for all the mornings that I woke up worried that my son STILL didn't know his "eight times", there were hundreds of precious moments of excitement and discovery.    One son passed the Aplus certification test for computer technicians when he was TWELVE.    He would not have had that opportunity until high school if he'd been in a school.    One son is severely dyslexic and dysgraphic; I was told he might never become functionally literate    However, he reads above grade level and generally outperforms his non-LD public school counterparts in most areas.   No one will ever be able to convince me that he would have achieved this if I hadn't worked with him one-on-one for hours a day for 8 years.   To offset the hours of really hard work,  he has participated in Civil War re-enacting,   studied military history and antique firearms, spent time riding horses, and become a phenomenal guitar player (in a town full of musicians, he is called "Young Stevie" as in Stevie Ray Vaughn).     I have not even begun to describe all the ways my sons and our whole family have profited from the years of homeschool.   Public school teachers express such joy and pleasure to have my sons in their class.    They commend them on their manners, their problem-solving skills, their attitude toward learning, their work ethic, the depth and the breadth of their skills and information.      In addition, my boys know the basics of cooking and doing laundry, shopping and budgeting,  running a house,  and managing one's personal finances.      In addition, they've had to work as a team (at unpleasant jobs, no less!)  and  function within a diverse group, not just their peers.     They've had valuable relationships with the elderly people in the neighborhood as well as the babies in the neighborhood.    Overall, I think that my boys are better prepared for life than the majority of public or private school children.     Even though I ran a pretty tight ship, the boys still had to learn to manage their tme and monitor themselves to a greater extent than a child sitting in a traditional classroom.  They had a real incentive to finish their work in an accurate and timely manner, because it meant we had time for natural science (catching fish and frogs down at the creek or some similar activity).      The boys' teachers have praised them almost excessively for the way they use their class time so efficiently to complete their assignment instead of goofing off. 

I will say that I am very upset with the bias against homeschoolers.     If anybody took the time to check out some of the latest reasearch and not just rely on anecdotal "evidence", they will find that homeschoolers, in general, score higher in self-esteem and social skills than their public and private school counterparts.   Of course, there are notable, negative exceptions, and those are the ones that get all of the attention.   If a family is dysfunctional, then that dysfunction is intensified when the children are kept isolated at home.     Homeschooling is NOT the problem, however, and should not be blamed for  the effects of a parent's or parents' dysfunction.    Homeschooling just means those potential problem children are at home instead of in our classrooms.   To judge all homeschoolers by one family is like judging all public schools by the lowest-ranking public school in Dallas.    Also, I get rather upset when people start talking about excessive regulation of homeschoolers just because  some homeschoolers are not doing their job.   You don't punish everybody for the mistakes of a few; you don't take something away just because not everybody does it perfectly.    A whole lot of schools and teachers aren't doing a good job, either, in spite of  being heavily regulated.     There are those that say all this regulation of our schools is now part of the problem, and it is hindering, not helping, the education of our children.    Let's not punish the thousand of moms and dads who are doing a great job.   We don't need to limit their options for them and their children just because of a few media-hyped examples.  

I am not an advocate for exclusive unschooling.     We had a schedule that we stuck to about 85% of the time.     I set goals for my children and directed their education.    I did read a lot by unschoolers and about unschooling, but in the end I decided that my children and I both needed more structure and discipline.    However,  that 15% of the time we didn't stick to a schedule was, in some ways, the most valuable time in their education.     Sometimes it meant a last minute trip to a museum; sometimes it meant an extra day of flash cards and drills; sometimes it meant hanging out with the award-winning One O'clock Lab Band after lunch with Dad; sometimes it meant a whole day of research at the library; sometimes it was a whole morning in our jammies reading Dinotopia together or watching all of the Sister Wendy art history videos.    

I am so thankful for the wonderful private and public school teachers.    I am amazed at what they are expected to accomplish with so little help and support.      I see to it that my sons have a calm ordered environment in which to study at home; that they have eaten something for breakfast; that they have had a good night's sleep;  that they are calm and happy when they leave the house for school.    I am finding that a surprising number of parents are not meetiing the basic physical and emotional needs  of their children.    I don't expect a teacher to do for my child what I am not willing  to do for my child.

Ultimately, no matter what a parent does or doesn't do, a child gets out of education - be it homeschool, public, or private - what he or she puts into it.     However, the parent is responsible for modeling and communicating a good attitude toward learning and for providing the environment to encourage learning.     It is a grave responsibility that too many parents  are shirking.         

It is my opinion that  parents should have ultimate authority and bear responsibiltiy for the education of their children.   I don't think the government is in a position to make that decision  for most families and their children.     As you can see from my family, different children at different times have needed diffterent types of education.      I can't say that homeschooling is always better even though I can say that I loved homescholing.     Nor can I say that a private school is always better even though my boys had a wonderful experience in their private school.   And, even though I resisted public education at first, it has been very beneficial for both my boys.    All I can say is we need to preserve as many options as possible for our children (one size does not fit all!) and that we as parents and as a society need to do a better job meeting our children's basic physical, emotional, mental and spiritual needs so that our teachers can concentrate on teaching.     

YOu just made my point.

I believe the battle in the mind of the parent is responsible for a great deal of this 'home schooling' that goes on around the country.  What kind of hysteria made that Mother say, 'public schools are death traps'.  Your front yard is a death trap if you want to use the wrong words for everything.  The mark of the uneducated mind.

At best, there are co-op's. 

 I think home schooling occupies the Mommy's time who wonders what she will do when the kids are at school or perhaps doesn't have the initiative to work. 

She thinks she on to some Noble cause.  

Either that or she's  just too lazy to get up and get on with the routine.   We all know that's true.  The Dad, wanting to keep the peace, so he just goes along with it. 

 A prideful, ego trip carries the Mother on her journey  as she proves to the world how much smarter she and her children are going to be.  

I also see fear as a motive for home schooling.  Here in Missouri, the parents are shut out of the public school system.  Unless you completely understand the lingo, are willing to be aggressive with the teachers and above all, know that your little darling is indeed capable of doing just about anything, then the 'them against us' attitude prevails here.  It is a backward culture with strong fundamentalist preaching that's out of balance with life and reality.

The ideas about education here are old.  They do breed contempt.

If you take someone who did not necessarily do well in school, has low self-worth, add to that fear and you have a typical home-schooling parent.

Only 25% of the youngsters go on to get a college degree in Missouri; which, is 24th in the Nation and darn proud of it.  Home schoolers are everywhere.  Do they know as much or more as the qualified Instructors in the school?  Don't be ridiculous.

Timid, uneducated parents think they are superior by refusing to allow their children to socialize.

How else can they distinguish themselves?   It's part of the backward thinking that's prevelant.

Most children deeply resent staring at their Mother's all day for years on end.

Mother's are supposed to be Mother's.  Period.

We do not  have Ph.D's in Science and English and Math.  Nor are we all well traveled with a complete working knowledge of the events of the day.

The cloistered stifeling environment of home-schooling would have driven me nuts.

I would have hated it and whoever put me through it as a child.

What kind of an ego makes a Mother think she is all people and  life's experiences to her child?

I think the inablity to accept others is at the heart of home schooling. 

I loved my friends, my teachers and the learning experience.

IF there were horrible tramatic issues, as a child, as with all children, I was blissfully unaware of them.

We took our youngest son and moved to Texas while he was in Jr. High.  He did not just survive the Texas school system, he thrived, he went on to become a Scholar and is now a Dean's Scholar at OSU in Stillwater.

The other kids in our neighborhood are following typical Missouri schedules.  Deciding to join the military, then undeciding, deciding to go to college, then undeciding.

His entire class in Texas, mostly are involved in college

 His entire class in Missouri, not so good, struggling, failing.

"Our daughter has many advantages over children who are in public schools. She does her studies in the morning and is usually finished by lunch. Then she helps me with the daycare children, and helps bake and clean, and of course, she gets to spend alot more time playing.  She is getting hands on learning as well as book studies, and will most likely graduate at age 16. "

You say this like it is a good thing. As one who graduated early...in fact, I was skipped a grade in primary school...I can attest to the fact that it is not. We adults tend to forget (or ignore) the fact that children have their own society and there is precious little we can do to change it. To a kid, one year is a HUGE amount of time and represents a HUGE amount of difference. To be a year or more younger than your classmates can be an enormous dividing factor, especially in the teens. When your peers are taking driver's ed, you aren't old enough to get a permit. When the dating game starts, the girl two years younger than her classmates is perceived as a "baby" rather than a peer, especially if the parents give priviledges based on age rather than grade level. Worst of all, kids hate to be shown up by those younger than themselves...if you are 14 in a classroom of 16-years olds and you're making the best marks, you can just about count on being ostracised.

So your daughter may graduate at 16...then what? Think about what you are dooming her to (in my case I missed a lot of fundamental math when I was skipped a grade, a problem that haunts me well into adulthood) just so you can crow about how smart your daughter is. Then sit down with your school, work out an Individualized Education Plan (every school is mandated by the government to give each child a free and appropriate education...the IEP is the vehicle, worked out by parents and educators together), find ways to supplement her education at home if necessary, BUT PUT HER BACK IN SCHOOL WITH KIDS HER OWN AGE!

If you don't, she's the one who will suffer the consequences of your pride.

"Our daughter has many advantages over children who are in public schools. She does her studies in the morning and is usually finished by lunch. Then she helps me with the daycare children, and helps bake and clean, and of course, she gets to spend alot more time playing.  She is getting hands on learning as well as book studies, and will most likely graduate at age 16. "

You say this like it is a good thing. As one who graduated early...in fact, I was skipped a grade in primary school...I can attest to the fact that it is not. We adults tend to forget (or ignore) the fact that children have their own society and there is precious little we can do to change it. To a kid, one year is a HUGE amount of time and represents a HUGE amount of difference. To be a year or more younger than your classmates can be an enormous dividing factor, especially in the teens. When your peers are taking driver's ed, you aren't old enough to get a permit. When the dating game starts, the girl two years younger than her classmates is perceived as a "baby" rather than a peer, especially if the parents give priviledges based on age rather than grade level. Worst of all, kids hate to be shown up by those younger than themselves...if you are 14 in a classroom of 16-years olds and you're making the best marks, you can just about count on being ostracised.

So your daughter may graduate at 16...then what? Think about what you are dooming her to (in my case I missed a lot of fundamental math when I was skipped a grade, a problem that haunts me well into adulthood) just so you can crow about how smart your daughter is. Then sit down with your school, work out an Individualized Education Plan (every school is mandated by the government to give each child a free and appropriate education...the IEP is the vehicle, worked out by parents and educators together), find ways to supplement her education at home if necessary, BUT PUT HER BACK IN SCHOOL WITH KIDS HER OWN AGE!

If you don't, she's the one who will suffer the consequences of your pride.

Florida is one of ten states which have state laws granting homeschoolers access to public school classes and sports. This law was passed in 1996 so your principal wouldn't have had the authority  to deny access to the art class.

Hmmm, I wonder why your school wouldn't have received any additional funding. But, that doesn't really matter, I suppose, since everyone- including homeschoolers pay school taxes. So, technically speaking the public schools are receiving funding from homeschoolers whether they choose to use public school classes or not.

But, if she were demanding a specific time slot for her child and demanding your school change their schedule she was being insane. Of course an entire school cannot change their schedule to accomidate one student.

I understand what you are saying about the tests but my point is there is no way you would know if the homeschoolers tested or not. There are so many available locations for testing. It would be similar to a store stating that group x did not buy turkeys for Thanksgiving simply because group x did not buy turkeys from that specific store.

As I mentioned before there are three options other than testing available to homeschoolers for their annual evaluation:

Under Fla. Stat. Ann. § 232.0201 (1)(c), parents who home school their children must provide for "an annual educational evaluation in which is documented the pupil's demonstration of educational progress at a level commensurate with his or her ability." The statute further indicates, "the parent or guardian shall select the method of evaluation." Parents have five evaluation options: (1) any nationally normed test, (2) a state student assessment test used by the school district, (3) a portfolio evaluation and discussion with the student by a Florida-certified teacher, (4) an evaluation by a licensed psychologist, or (5) any other valid measurement tool to which the county superintendent agrees.

Homeschoolers who are required to file annual testing are only required to file annually. They are not required to meet any school imposed deadline. IOW, if the homeschool family began homeschooling in October they will need to submit their testing results by the next October.

Also, we cannot forget that all homeschoolers in Florida are required to submit registration with the superintenant but only those following one of the three legal options are required to submit their assesment results to the superintenant.

Given all these options it is impossible for you to state whether the homeschoolers did indeed complete their required annual testing. But, you were given the impression that the homeschoolers simply didn't comply with state law, right?

Florida, by the way is certainly strict with homeschoolers. A quick look on HSLDA's website will show that not only are homeschoolers subjected to state laws but they are also busy fighting off illegal demands by the public school system.

This situation is a prime example of public schools authorities not  understanding the state laws. I understand that the staff and teachers are too busy taking care of their own job demands to be all that concerned with what homeschoolers are doing. But, in the case of interraction between homeschoolers and public schools we all have the responsibility to be educated on the state laws.

Yes, Thomas Jefferson did have some ideas on education. Good renaissance man that he was, he had opinions and ideas on nearly everything.  His ideas on education didn't have  much impact on the kind of schools we have today though; he represented an agrarian society and his ideas were geared more toward a nation of farmers.

Studying John Dewey, with a modicum of Horace Mann, will give you a fuller understanding of the roots of the public system we have today.