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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 23, 2006, 11:44 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

(from the intro to this topic...)
"Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise?"

--

I think both sides are extreme, but it just dawned on me to consider what Steve is alleged to have said.  School is really safer than his home?  Does he realize what he's implying by that statement?  What kind of home environment have they created that school is a safer place for their children than their sanctuary called "home"?  How did their children survive before reaching school age?

 
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November 23, 2006, 11:52 am PST

Homeschooling v. Unschooling

     You know, I understand that Television is a commercial medium, and it is paid for with advertising and viewers, but......
I now homeschool my three children after I pulled them out of a private school.  My three siblings and I were homeschooled after being pulled out of regular school.  I've experienced all the different schooling situations.
Watching the promo of the Unschooling family, I just have to shake my head.  There are people who do do this.  But it is not proactive schooling of any kind.  It is chaos.  The theory of unschooling has to do with thinking outside the box as to what form education will take, but there is education.  To see something like this on national TV, just makes it harder for those of us who work hard every day to give our children a good, solid, academic education that is enhanced by the benefit of life lessons that homeschooling affords.
As a homeschooling family we are frequently confronted with the ignorance of well-meaning but foolish people who think nothing of voicing their prejudicial and uninformed opinions to our faces.
When I saw some weeks ago that Homeschooling was going to be a topic on the Dr. Phil show, I was hoping to be treated to an informative and entertaining show featuring some 'normal' families.
I guess not.
Sigh.
 
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November 23, 2006, 12:06 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

yental wrote: "
Who will be there to inspire them to grow and reach their full potential if it were not for a teacher?"
---
Indeed.  I have seen many children who could use the influence of a teacher, as some parents are not interested in providing inspiration, motivation and support.  Teachers sometimes are the only people these young people can depend on.  However for functional families - teachers, while there are many good ones, are a supplemental support for the foundational support children should already be receiving at home.

Teachers do indeed provide a lot for a classroom of students.  It takes a lot of dedication to do it.  Not all people are cut out for the job of co-ordinating the activities of a public school.

One of my children was a special ed student in school, and had a teacher much like yourself, a top-notch one whose support and advice and influence on my child I was (and still am) beyond grateful to have received.  Occasionally we still encounter each other (grocery store, bank, whatever) and she's very interested in how we were doing.  You see, she was an incredible support to me as well, and advocate for me, when our family decided to opt out of the school system and pursue other paths.  And this is a woman whose income depends on children like my own child!

 
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November 23, 2006, 2:07 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

I don't agree with the philosophy of unschooled. I think those who subscribe to this type of thinking and teaching are ignorant and are doing their children a huge disservice. I think every parent has a responsibility and duty to educate their children and to shape and mold that untapped and raw potential. When children are left to raise, entertain and educate themselves they don't choose things that are productive or positive. When a child has to much free time to think idle thoughts that is when trouble beings to be birthed in their minds and activities.

 

I do agree that homeschooling is not for every child or parent. It does take commitment, time, energy and at times sacrifice but the benefits are Hugh to your child and your relationship with them. If your planning on homeschooling take the time to properly educate yourself on the different resources, methods, support groups and enrichment activities. It will help you to have less anxiety, more success and fun.

 
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November 23, 2006, 2:32 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jesusislord

I  agree with you  100%.   Kids do need to be in a public school.   Thats why we have teachers!   They  really learn what  they need to know in school!    Also  they make friends!  I think its good  for a  child to be in a public school.  

 I'm sorry I don't think it's for everyone. Not all children are alike. Our district offers several homeschooling programs. There must be a demand for it. I also know several former teachers who homeschool. I myself am seriously considering it because, of the negative influences of alot of the children  in the Jr. High and High School.
 
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November 23, 2006, 2:39 pm PST

Homeschooling can impede social development

Yes, homeschooling can be as beneficial(perhaps even more depending on the child and the type of education that he/she is immersed in) as public/private school. BUT, as a member of society, the child will have to acquire at the very least, a base set of social skills so that they can relate with other people and conduct themselves appropriatly in social situations. Homeschooling often does not place the child in a setting where these social skills can be adequatly developed. A family setting does not allow for a child to learn how to relate to, and act appropriatly to those in his own age group; their social skills can be stunted somewhat if they are forced to continuously relate to often those who are only in positions of authority(parents) or younger children, whose development stages are lower than that of the older child who needs to further develop his social skills to be accepted in his age group. Relating to acceptance, if a child is not accepted into a social circle of his own age/preference, this can lead to feeilngs of low self-worth and well, another emotionally messed up teenager in this society will have emerged! Trust me on this, I've seen cases where homeschooling can harm a child's social development if a child is kept from social interaction that would be achieved somewhere other than school.
 
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November 23, 2006, 2:49 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: winterwarmth

yental wrote: "
Who will be there to inspire them to grow and reach their full potential if it were not for a teacher?"
---
Indeed.  I have seen many children who could use the influence of a teacher, as some parents are not interested in providing inspiration, motivation and support.  Teachers sometimes are the only people these young people can depend on.  However for functional families - teachers, while there are many good ones, are a supplemental support for the foundational support children should already be receiving at home.

Teachers do indeed provide a lot for a classroom of students.  It takes a lot of dedication to do it.  Not all people are cut out for the job of co-ordinating the activities of a public school.

One of my children was a special ed student in school, and had a teacher much like yourself, a top-notch one whose support and advice and influence on my child I was (and still am) beyond grateful to have received.  Occasionally we still encounter each other (grocery store, bank, whatever) and she's very interested in how we were doing.  You see, she was an incredible support to me as well, and advocate for me, when our family decided to opt out of the school system and pursue other paths.  And this is a woman whose income depends on children like my own child!

 I had too had teachers that made a huge positive impact on my life. I will never forget them. Unfortunately,  those thing are kinda hit or miss. My daughter had the opportunity to go to school where I did for 6 mos. She loved it and she learned a great deal. She also got to meet one of those teachers (he's partly retired and was subbing in one of he classes) She came home singing his praises and I said, "Oh tell him, I said Hi!" apparently she did, and he just gushed about how  great I was. LOL!

However, just one district away , most of the teachers (in the higher grades)are appathetic and my daughter struggles. I wish I could put her back in my Home school but, we aren't able to as not only would we have to pay, but also transport.

The homeschool program this district offers is looking better and better

 
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November 23, 2006, 2:50 pm PST

girl who hated homeschool

I know the show didn't air yet, but what do you all think about the girl who is supposed to be on who hated homeschooling? I know something like this could stir up a big debate, but I have my own feelings and want to know yours.

 
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November 23, 2006, 3:06 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

Please go read the writings of Jefferson.
Please go read James Madison’s Federalist Paper #10, wherein he discusses the topic of Democracies.

In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy."
 


 

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)  

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable. 


We have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a  republic, not a democracy.1 Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy:
 


[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.2 James Madison

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.3 John Adams

A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way.4 The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.5 Fisher Ames, Author of the House Language for the First Amendment

We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate . . . as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism. . . . Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.6 Gouverneur Morris, Signer and Penman of the Constitution

[T]he experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.7 John Quincy Adams

A simple democracy . . . is one of the greatest of evils.8 Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration

In democracy . . . there are commonly tumults and disorders. . . . Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.9 Noah Webster

Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state, it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.10 John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.11 Zephaniah Swift, Author of America's First Legal Text

 
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November 23, 2006, 4:13 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: amberlyn1

Please go read James Madisons Federalist Paper #10, wherein he discusses the topic of Democracies.

In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy."
 


 

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)  

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable. 


We have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a  republic, not a democracy.1 Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy:
 


[Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.2 James Madison

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.3 John Adams

A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way.4 The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.5 Fisher Ames, Author of the House Language for the First Amendment

We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate . . . as [it has everywhere terminated, in despotism. . . . Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.6 Gouverneur Morris, Signer and Penman of the Constitution

[The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.7 John Quincy Adams

A simple democracy . . . is one of the greatest of evils.8 Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration

In democracy . . . there are commonly tumults and disorders. . . . Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.9 Noah Webster

Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state, it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.10 John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.11 Zephaniah Swift, Author of America's First Legal Text

Please realize that the words democracy and republic can be used in several contexts. It can be a philosophy of government or the actual structure of government. Since I mentioned Jefferson in my original post on this topic, here is Jefferson on education (source - earlyamerica.com).

 

The preparation of the voter so that he might express his opinion by means of the ballot, thus insuring political liberty, was one of the main goals of Jefferson's plan for education which asserted four basic principles:

  1. "that democracy cannot long exist without enlightenment.
  2. that it cannot function without wise and honest officials.
  3. that talent and virtue, needed in a free society, should be educated regardless of wealth, birth or other accidental condition.
  4. that the children of the poor must be thus educated at common expense." (as cited in Padover, 1952, p. 43)

Jefferson felt so strongly about education that he, as a strict constitutional constructionist, submitted to congress an amendment to the constitution to legalize federal support for education in his State of the Union Address, December 2, 1806. "Education is here placed among the articles of public care. . . " (Honeywell, 1964, p. 63).

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree. . . . An amendment to our constitution must here come in aid of the public education. The influence over government must be shared among all people. (as cited in Padover, 1939, p. 87)

The amendment was never considered, so, Jefferson turned his efforts to his beloved state of Virginia. He developed a comprehensive plan for education which encompassed elementary, secondary, and university levels.
 
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