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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 23, 2006, 9:17 pm PST

Radical unschoolers

Quote From: violetmay

"So, for all of you who believe that children should not be allowed to follow their own path, or that the adults in their lives are irresponsible or abusive for choosing to unschool, what would you say to my two happy, healthy, successful unschooled teens? "

 

I would say "I hope you aren't planning on being lawyers...or doctors. I hope you don't expect to get jobs as engineers or accountants or stock brokers. I hope you are prodigies in something creative, like piano, so you don't have to spend your lives working at jobs that do not require some kind of proof of education before you can be considered for employment. I hope a life as a blue-collar worker in an economy in which those kinds of jobs are rapidly dwindling, is in your life plan.

 

"Most of all, however, I hope you don't come to resent your mother when you finally realize that she did an utterly non-existent job of preparing you to be able to compete and succeed in the world you will be adults in, that instead of helping you get the credentials that will open the doors to your future, she sacrificed that future for the short term gain of giving you an irresponsible and "free" childhood."

 

And to you, Mother, I would say that with freedom comes responsibility and you have egregiously shirked yours. Your children cannot be considered "successful" because they have not yet flown the nest and succeeded in the unsheltered world that requires certain criteria...like a certain level of education...before even an interview will be granted. They have not yet taken their unschooled selves into the real world and found jobs that will independently support them...and eventually the families they will someday have.

 

Check back in 20 years and let's see just how successful a couple of kids become when they have no education and lack the credentials that employers require before they can be seriously considered for a job. And if you're going to try to tell me that there is more to life than jobs and money, don't bother...you well know they can't eat esoterics. They will need jobs to survive in the real world and the people who control those jobs want proof of the very education you have denied them.

I've been talking about this a bit with my kids, and decided to add to my previous response. I apologize in advance for the formatting - these message boards and my browser seem to be conspiring to remove the separation between my paragraphs. First, there is nothing irresponsible about being free, or protecting our children's freedom. In fact, that is one of our primary responsibilities as parents and citizens. Second, I disagree that someone must have "flown the coop" or be of a certain age in order to be considered successful. Third, as I have said before, my children are most certainly not uneducated, just unschooled. Fourth, both of my children have already found gainful employment that they enjoy, that is neither minimum wage, nor a dead end career-wise. My son says it's okay for me to tell you a little more about him, since his experience disproves these many dire predictions. He's fifteen years old, and in many ways a typical teen. He loves music, and hanging out with his friends, and as with most kids his age, eating and sleeping are high on his list of favorite pastimes. But he's also very busy and active. He is a drummer, has played with several rock bands and works and plays hard at improving his skills. He's been in more than a dozen plays, primarily Shakespearean, but also others, and he was recently accepted into an acting troupe at a local theater. He does a lot of volunteer work, and serves on the Board of Directors of our region's Camp Fire USA council. Through Camp Fire, he also goes hiking and backpacking, and does many other activities, including community outreach, which involves public speaking. He's working on completing his WOHELO award, Camp Fire's equivalent of the Eagle Scout and Girl Scout Gold awards. Part of his work toward this has to do with advocating for drama education for kids, and he's volunteered several hundred hours as a drama camp counselor toward that end. Another interest area he's working on has to do with nonviolent communication and teen issues like dating violence, drug and alcohol abuse, and police-teen relations. He has been working lately for pay doing audio and video editing, at which he is pretty skilled. He enjoys doing it but doesn't think that's what he wants to make a career of. His first love is programming, which he has been doing since he was not quite 8 years old. He thinks something in the video gaming industry to do with programming would be right up his alley. In working toward that goal, he decided he wanted to go to college. He spent a minimal amount of time (a month or so) preparing himself, then took admissions and assessment tests, applied, and entered the college of his choice. He tested into college level courses, and is taking just two classes a semester for now, since he's still very young and wants time for all his other interests and to "just be a kid" too. And then there's his interest in singing, and filmmaking with his friends, and sleepovers, and video games, and composing music, and almost any other kind of game, and swimming, and cooking, politics, the state of the world, environmentalism - the list goes on and on. I couldn't stop him from learning if I wanted to. These are the things he's chosen of his own free will to do. He's worked hard at them. He's developed a great deal of discipline (no - we didn't discipline him either!) and a lot of skill. He's well-liked, has proven several times over that he's a great employee, and has jumped the college admissions hurdle. I suspect that, even though I'm a bit biased as his parent, I'm not the only one who would say he's successful already.
 

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November 24, 2006, 1:39 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

First of all I would like to say that this episode seems extremely biased towards public schoolers.  There was not a traditional home schooler represented.  How can you get an idea of a typical home schooler if you don't show one???? 

 

Unschooling can be a good thing for the right family.  But unschooling does not mean that you set no boundaries for your child.  That can't be healthy.  Not every home schooler is like that - in fact most aren't close.  And what is up with the girl who is paranoid of sending her kids to school?  She doesn't even home school so how can she represent homeschooling?  We are not all a bunch of paranoid idiots. 

 

I have three children all of them are special needs.  One is Bipolar and two are on the Autism Spectrum.  This is the main reason why I home school.  They can get the attention they need as well as the flexibility.  My children are extremely bright.  They are all way above where they should be if they were "typical" children which is exceptional because they have so much more to contend with on a daily basis. 

 

As for social skills - public schools do not foster social skills.  My children actually have to be taught social skills.  It is not something that they can pick up by watching others.  They have friends that they see on a regular basis.  They have home school groups, martial arts, as well as therapies. 

 

My children are not typical.  They would not succeed being educated in the typical manor.  There is no right and wrong in this debate.  There is only what is best for your family.  I have been horrified reading the responses here.  How can someone declare that another person's choices are wrong without truly understanding themselves and there position.  Yes - there are families that would probably do best not homeschooling.  There are also children that would probably benefit by being removed from public schools. 

 

I wish more then anything that there was understanding instead of the constant bickering that goes on. 

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:28 am PST

There is no one answer

I am a "retired" public high school teacher. I am also a devout Catholic. I have seen the good and bad in public schools and the good in bad in private schools. I also have friends who homeschool.

 

It all DEPENDS on your situation. Our elder child is in an advanced study program in a public middle school. It's a neighborhood school and it's WONDERFUL. Of course lots of the language she hears in filth, but she's knows right from wrong and has selected her friends wisely. We moved her from private school because it didn't offer what she everything she needed (clubs, sports, etc).

 

Our 1st grader is in Catholic school where the behavior of ALL the kids is wonderful and the education is superb. He is getting a great foundation from which to flourish.

 

My close friend homeschools her child, who is "gifted." She is educated and her husband is a retired school teacher. To give their daughter the best education possible, the daughter takes PE, ART and MUSIC at a nearby public school (yes, homeschoolers can use the facilities BY LAW). For sports, the daughter meets with other homeschooling "groups" for sports games, etc. This way she is not allinated from kids her age, but the kids she is with share similiar values (basically very good and moral behavior).

 

So there is NO ONE SHOE FITS ALL. It depends upon the schools in your area, upon they type of child you have and what his/her needs are, and it depends on CHOICE....choice for parents to make regarding education for their babies.

 

SCHOOL CHOICE should be a must. Parents should be DEMANDING a choice in the public schools they send their children to. Why should parents be forced to send their children to a lousy public school when there's a great public school across town? Education in this era needs to change and we parents need to speak up NOW!!!!

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:34 am PST

Yea to controlling religious zealots!

Quote From: omgwhocares

Just guessing here, but I seriously doubt that she was an unschooler.  Her parents were probably some of the extremely controlling religious zealots who school at home. 

 

BTW, if Phil had been looking for adults who hated public school, he could have interviewed me ;)  

In today's sad society. ANYBODY who follows the teachings of Christ (which are unpopular with many) are considered "controlling religious zealots!"


Should we refer to all those who don't follow the teachings as "loser secular freaks?"  I think not.

 

Considering morality cannot be discussed in the public arena (ex. as a public high school teacher, marriage couldn't even be mentioned during the unit on sex and Aids), it's no wonder those who want their children to hang with those from families w/ some decent values RUN from the public schools. Add to that that many public schools are below par academically and we ALL should be "controlling religious zealots" when it comes to protecting our children!

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:38 am PST

You know little about homeschooling

Quote From: elffie

I am not going to homeschool, I don't think it will benefit MY children.  I don't think it would be healthy for them to be with me all day, they need to get out and be with other kids their age in an environment that will support that.  Plus, I want them to get the best education they can get, even if that means public schools.  There are lots of Merit schools in the town my children will be going to and the kids score very high on their tests. 

 

The only difference I see between Public and Private schools is the cost.  Also, that some private schools are religious based.  You can find the same classes in public school without the cost.  I don't think we need to push our children academically, and honestly I think it's a little too much to have a kindergardner doing 3rd grade work.  Now, if they child is capable of doing it, then so be it, but I do not think it's wise to push kids while they are so young.

 

There is bullying and crime if private school as well.  I had a friend that went to a Christian private school and the kids there did drugs and had sex on the property!  Same thing that was going on in the public school system.

 

I don't think homeschooling really teaches responsibility.  Some of the time it is not structured and it is only for a couple hours a day.  Going out of the house to school reinforces responsibility and teaching the student to be liable for their actions.  Sure, there were a few days when I didn't want to go to school, but I could not have stayed home.  I would not be socially mature, but that is me, it could be different for others.  Plus, leaving home to go to school prepared me for the real world, where you leave your house and you do what you have to do, even if you don't like it.

 

So it looks like public schooling for my kids. 

Are you even aware that there are homeschooling GROUPS all over this country. Kids are not homeschooled in a bubble. They can be apart of large homeschooling groups and they can use the facilities of the public schools.

 

My friend's gifted daughter is homeschooled. She's also part of a large homeschooling group of kids her age. She meets with the groups for sports and clubs. She also attends art and music classes at a nearby public school.

 

Homeschooling is NOT what it started out to be. These kids are NOT isolated. And they benefit from being surrounded by kids with similar values (ie. good behavior, strong parental support and guidance, Christian values, etc).

 

I am a former high school teacher. Homeschooling was not for me or our children, but it is a WONDRFUL option for others whose area and private schools STINK.

 

God bless CHOICE when it comes to our children!

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:40 am PST

we are a democratic republic

Quote From: amberlyn1

Please go read James Madisons Federalist Paper #10, wherein he discusses the topic of Democracies.

In the Pledge of Allegiance we all pledge allegiance to our Republic, not to a democracy. "Republic" is the proper description of our government, not "democracy."
 


 

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)  

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable. 


We have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a  republic, not a democracy.1 Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy:
 


[Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.2 James Madison

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.3 John Adams

A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way.4 The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.5 Fisher Ames, Author of the House Language for the First Amendment

We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate . . . as [it has everywhere terminated, in despotism. . . . Democracy! savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtuous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.6 Gouverneur Morris, Signer and Penman of the Constitution

[The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.7 John Quincy Adams

A simple democracy . . . is one of the greatest of evils.8 Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration

In democracy . . . there are commonly tumults and disorders. . . . Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.9 Noah Webster

Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state, it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.10 John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

It may generally be remarked that the more a government resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.11 Zephaniah Swift, Author of America's First Legal Text

One would HOPE that the public schools did a BETTER job on educating us on DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICS! Most Americans don't even realize the form of govt of which they are a part!!!!
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:42 am PST

Homeschooling

I homeschooled my three children, starting when my youngest was in the start of 7th grade, my middle child was in 10th and my oldest was in 11th grade.  I did this because my middle child who was in all advanced classes, was REQUIRED to read a book about a man that lived in the deep south who had been sodomized and abused as a child and how he overcame that life and became successful.  The book was quite graphic.  I did not want my daughter reading this book, however her teacher and the school said read it or get a zero for the class.  At that point, I had had enough and pulled all three out of school.

I found a wonderful "umbrella" school to use, which allowed us to choose our own curriculum within the state laws. The headmaster had multiple ,PHD's in Education, Religion, etc.. I had to make progress reports to both the umbrella school and the state.  There are many curriculums to choose from and many ways to learn..from books to internet courses to a combination of both.

While I faced many naysayers, my children flourished and became closer to each other by helping one another and working together.

 We had a set schedule every day, which allowed us to have ALL of their work done within four hours, and allowed each of them to volunteer for church, extra curricular activities, and jobs.  All three kids graduated with College Prep diplomas, with honors,  and were accepted at multiple colleges and universities throughout the U.S..

None of my children suffered from this.  Would I reccomend it to others?  It depends on the circumstances for everyone involved.  I do NOT believe in "Unschooling".  I do believe in being involved in your childrens' education and taking charge if necessary.  It is not easy..you need commitment from your children and family.  I do recommend allowing children to go to school from Kindergarten until at least middle school, when all of the "crap" starts that can damage children, pshychologicaly, forever.  The kids need to learn all of the basics and the best place for that IS school.  From middle school on, it is debatable.

As with most things in life, there are pros and cons to both sides.

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:43 am PST

Teachers are the key!

Quote From: rs8180

I have seen a mom like you describe too but I have also seen moms like this whos kids go to public school.  I was shocked to see how many teachers are homeschooling their kids.  I homeschool and am not fat and only have one at home now.  We do virtural school.

When I taught in the public school in Tampa (the 11th largest school system in the country),

FIFTY-FIVE percent of teachers were sending their children to PRIVATE SCHOOL!

 

If you ever want to know how good a school system is, find out what the teachers are doing!!!

 

School choice is the way to go. Depending upon your child, public school may be best, private school may be best or homeschooling may be the way to go!

 

And we parents should be free to move our kids out of lousy public schools and put them in the better public schools across town!!!  It's time we force our politicians to act!!!

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:44 am PST

If going to correct someone, do it correctly:)

Quote From: amberlyn1

This is interesting, since we are not a democracy - we are a Republic.
Never correct someone unless you plan to do it correctly; our country is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC!
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:49 am PST

PARENTS, PUSH FOR SCHOOL CHOICE

I wish all of you would PUSH your govt. officials for school choice. There are kids being forced to attend failing public schools simply because their home lies in a certain area. The Republicans are in favor or vouchers. The Democrats are in favor of the failing status quo. WE PARENTS should be in favor of allowing our children to attend the best public school (for our individual child) that is available in our school district. Sadly, kids are forced to sit in failing public school and they have no choice but to attend (or spend thousands for private school and have their parents homeschool).

 

There is no ONE BEST ANSWER for everyone. Some kids need public school (if it's a great school), some need private school (especially if they need small classes, structure and discipline) and some need homeschooling. If we had school choice though (with regard to public school), there would be many more success stories!!!

 

Our current system of public school attendance is unfair and STINKS. Let's speak up to change things!

 
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