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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 24, 2006, 8:14 am PST

Pease look into homeschooling better

Quote From: sramsey3544

I am a teacher and wanted to comment of several things that you said.  First: FYI: teachers do a lot of research and incorporate learning styles into the classroom.  Your statement sounds like a false assumption.

 

The bottom line in parenting and growing up is that it takes a village.  Parents, no matter how well educated or well-intentioned, do not possess the ability to provide all of children's' needs.  Children need to have their own experiences with no parent there to fix the wrongs or take them out at an sign of adversity.  Children need to learn to try things that don't initially interest them and to finish things even if they don't want to. 

 

By having children raised so closely to parents, I believe these children to be stifled and crippled.  It may not seem evident now, but wait until college...the social gaps will be regrettably obvious then.  Most home school children either maintain some level of distance from the greater group or overindulge due to lack of exposure to issues like sex and alcohol.

 

Talk to you kids all you want.  Enroll them in a weekly soccer practice if it backs up your argument better.  If you really want to feel convincing, bring Science into the kitchen....no ones really buying it but it may make you feel better.   You can not recreate the atmosphere of school, the expertise of teachers or the rich experience for children.  Parents who enroll their kids in home schooling usually fit into one of the following categories:

 

Motivations

1) They themselves experienced social rejection

2)They themselves experienced academic failure

3)An irrational fear of "the world we live in today"

4) A selfish desire to experience everything that your child experiences so much to that you are willing to deny you child most if not all experiences that don't include you

5) An obsession with control

 

As I read through the pro homeschooling letters, I just enjoy attaching the motivation to their argument.  Notice...what is best for children didn't make the top five. 

I could not help but cringe at your message. I am currently homeschooled, and my parents did not homeschool me for any of the attrocious accusations. First of all, they asked me if I wanted to be homeschooled, and I did. Secondly, my parents went to school, and both agree they wished that they had been homeschooled. Almost all of my friends are homeschooled, and it's great, becasue we can help each other out, any time of day. i've been homeschooled since second grade, and absolutely adore it.  as to your comment about being crippled, I and i know none of my friends, are most certainly not. I feel ready for college even though I have a couple years. Also, what does it matter if we are not exposed to sex and alchohol?? Who wants that kind of pressure?

I would like to suggest to you, to look into homeschooling a lot more, before posting more  ludicrous like you have.

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:16 am PST

Ignorance is bliss

Quote From: tamika12767

I find it, as a high school educator, insulting to hear people/parents believe that they can do what I do without any formal training.  Teachers must obtain a four year degree and specific training for their specialty. With the legislation No Child Left Behind, teachers now must be "highly qualified" to teach the classes that they do. If I were to diagnose my child with a health problem and proceed to operate feeling I know whats best for my child's health care I would be prosecuted and most likely loose custody of my children. Why is it so different when it comes to the educating of our countries future. It is time for this country to take education and educators seriously or be prepared to reap the sad consequences.  Teaching is a profession NOT a hobby!

Don't be mad or upset. Know that there are parents and people out there who recognize and appreciate the expertise that teachers are providing to our youth. I hear everything you said and agree with you. Educators and thier skills should not be taken for granted. I know I couldn't do it right!

 

Michelle

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:17 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

 
michelle ev wrote:
"As for the “un-schooling” that was talked about today, to me, it sounded like the most preposterous approach I have ever heard to teaching. Again, as Dr. Phil stated, preparing a child for the real world certainly requires a great deal of structure and becoming familiar with how life will be in the real world when they are asked to perform. By parents allowing children to do as they please, when they want, on their own accord, they are doing a disservice to them because this clearly does not mirror the real world. Instead, it harms them and only sets them up for failure in adapting to that new reality."

Oh, I can't wait until I can watch this show, so I'll be able to respond directly in the context of how it was portrayed on the show.  In the meantime here I will answer from my own experience.

Unschooling does not mean "no structure."  Many activities my children are engaged in require structure, being on time (or they miss out!), sometimes doing "boring things" or getting up when they may not feel like it, to get to the meat and potatoes of what they want.  I have confidence that when they grow up, they will have matured with a working knowledge and will be completely comfortable for work or activities which require structure.  They are preparing for it. 

Unschooling encompasses a vast myriad of the many facets of life.  In our real lives they encounter friendly people, rude people, freestyle activities, structured activities, volunteering, working for pay, life skills.  Our lives would be flat out B-O-R-I-N-G if any of the above were eliminated.  Does one have to be in a school to be raised with the knowledge that structure is a part of life, otherwise they'll be totally bewildered and a fish out of water when presented with a schedule?


 
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November 24, 2006, 8:18 am PST

We All Need to WORK TOGETHER!!!

 I am a public school teacher and I am very happy that you did this show on education. 

Watching this show, of course, I agree with the education side of the debate.  However, at the end of the show, the feeling I got that continuously frustrates me as a teacher is the lack of communication teachers, schools, and parents have with each other to ensure our education system provides the BEST education for ALL children. 

Being a teacher, a very commited one, I work very hard with my school to try to get parents involved with us.  We try all kinds of things to get parents to come in and get involved, but time and time again----we try something and it fails.  But we continue to look and search for ways to improve our school and parent involvement. 

I see how much passion and commitment these parents have for their children.  YES!  That is awesome.  Take that passion and commitment and WORK with the schools.  WORK to make the schools appropriate for their children. 

Don't think just because we have low test scores, high discipline rates, etc we don't care for our children.  It frustrates us.  WE CANNOT DO IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  There is NOT ENOUGH HOURS in the day!!!!  In my classroom alone, I am a social worker.  I am a nurse.  I am a doctor.  I am a seamstress.  I am a police officer.  I am an optometrist.  I am a dentist.  I am a referee.  I am a psychologist.  I am mother.  I am a father.  I am a friend.  And then, yes.  I am a teacher.  (Oh, the list can go on.  You just caught me on a day that I have off!)

We are all of that for your children and yet, year after year.......budgets get cut.  Our support staff disappears.  Unrealistic standards are put onto us.   Our jobs get more and more difficult to do.  What are we to do? 

I, on average work 12-14 hours a day!  What are we suppose to do WITHOUT help and support???? 

My advice, take that passion and commitment you have for your children and help BETTER our education system.  Make your child's school a better place to be at the school level, at the district level, at the state level, and at the National Level.  We need the State and Federal governments support to help make our education system one that is desired around the world.  Because right now, we're a laughing stock to other countries and we're headed towards disaster.
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:19 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: lagnaf77

I got out of school 40 years ago.  I didn't do well, not from being stupid, I had an IQ of 142 at that time.  Because I chose not to participate in sports and other related activities I was black-balled and treated differently than the kids that participated.   I did box and wrestle for our local Boys Club after school and on weekends and when the school atheletes and bullies decided to pick on me I fought back and they soon figured out to leave me alone....  This type of thing happens on a daily basis in our school systems..  This type of activity breeds the people doing the shootings.     Public schools have been on the decline since the Federal Government got involved.     I taught school for 2 years just not to long ago, because I wanted to give back to the kids my knowledge and experiences and hopefully make their future a little brighter.  I soon realized the administration was not concerned about the education of the student, but how much funding that kid could bring in!!    No student left behind!!   I'm sorry but in real life if you can't cut it or don't want to apply yourself, you are left behind!!!   I had a student, from a single parent home, that was supposedly A.D.D..  In a very short period of time, with my working with this young man, I found all he needed was a little special attention and more one-on-one training..   But if he was found to be okay the school lost about $1800.00 annually in funding!!         The other thing that made my decision not to teach any longer was no discipline in the schools!!   The students can assualt the teacher and nothing happens...            My wife was a receptionist for 6 doctors.  3 of the 6 home schooled their children and the kids were very intelligent and well mannered and interacted very well with others.    There are pluses and minuses in both situations.   We have to decide which is best for us...   The wealthy have sent their kids to private schools for years, there is a reason, BETTER EDUCATION!!   The Public School System is a JOKE!!

It sounds to me that to make a blanket statement like you did here "Public School system is a JOKE" is a true sign of pure ignorance because it is nothing less than a hasty generalization.

 

You just insulted many teachers with your ignorance. Reconsider your tone and all those educated teachers you are offending. No housewife, mother can teach at the level of educated, certified teachers. Get a grip my friend.  

 

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November 24, 2006, 8:21 am PST

What Homeschooling and Unschooling are missing...

When I was in college one of my professors made a comment that has stuck with me.  As an educator you will face one issue that no onther profession encounters - everyone has been to school and "knows the best way to teach."  While I know that no one knows a child quite as well as their parents, I also know that, unless they are a teacher, no parent knows quite as well how to teach as a teacher.  We have gone through at least four years of training to be licensed and ceritified to teach the youth of america.  A parent that is homeschooling or unschooling their child does not have the credentials a trained professional teacher has.  Homeschooling and unschooling is providing a disservice to the children in that regard.  I am a parent and know the benefit of public school education.  Even though I have been trained on the best practices in education, I would never pull my child out of the educational system and home or unschool him.  This is becauce there are regulations in place to make sure that all students are recieveing the same education and the teachers are held accountable for the education of the students.  How are parents of these children being held accountable for No Child Left Behind?  

 

People in this country are upset about the Social Security debate.  We are paying money into a system that will not be there when we get older.  If you are homeschooling or unschooling your child, arent you doing the same thing?  Paying for a service you are not recieving?  Regardless if your child goes to public school or not, part of your tax dollars will be going to pay for school programs, teacher's salaries and other school related expenses.  If you are paying for it, why not take advantage of the services this great country provides and the expertise the teachers in the school system possess?

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:22 am PST

Homeschooling is not illegal

Quote From: homeschooljen

Most school districts regulate homeschoolers.  When I was being homeschooled, the school district I was in required a yearly portfolio and a meeting with a registered school teacher, who would assess how and what I was learning.  I would always pass with flying colors!
I have posted the paperwork requirements for New York State on here. We are also members of HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Association), and you can go to their website and see the regulationsfor each of the 50 states. Some states are highly regulated and some are not.
 

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November 24, 2006, 8:23 am PST

homeschooling vs public schools

My son taught himself to read encyclopedias by the age of 3, and by 3rd grade he had worn out my husband’s hard bound edition of The Complete And Unabridged Works of William Shakespeare. He’s a very smart child. He also has Asperger’s.

 

I homeschooled my son for two years (grades 1-2) because the school system wasn’t set up to deal with a child who had Asperger’s.  And hard as I tried, when he went back, while there were areas that he surpassed his peers on, there were also areas he fell behind his peers. He got socialization through scouting, church, etc, but it also wasn’t the same kind of socialization a child gets at school.

 

 

Today my son attends public school, but it is a magnet public school with a difference: they have smaller classes and use the Paidea method of teaching- a more hands-on, discussion oriented learning than the traditional lecture method. Plus they have a program designed to allow the kids to advance at their own pace so that they remain academically challenged. While in areas that my son has problems with (open-ended tasks or out-of-sequence tasks) they are more lenient in what he does, in other areas they actually expand his assignments so that he has to do more than the other students because that’s what he’s capable of. A couple actually have loaned him their college textbooks to let him learn more.

 

My son’s school is proactive rather than reactive, and have put into place modifications/implementations to his IEP without my having to request them; their goal is to keep him mainstreamed if at all possible because they feel a self-contained autism classroom would not be to his best  benefit academically. They have him in an anger group with other boys like him (they have a high percentage of boys with Asperger’s) to learn how to deal with anger before it reaches meltdown and out of control (for example, he has permission to just simply get up and leave a room to go to the library to cool down if he feels he might loose it).

 

So what has my son gotten out of a public school that not even the best homeschool program can offer? I’d have to say education as his school has access to so many things I could never do (Science lab, for one); but the biggest is that slowly he’s learning how to interact with other people despite his disability. He’s learning to ask himself if the person said what he thought they said or if they might have meant something else (he tends to take speech quite literally, to the point one instructor said she felt he’d memorized Webster’s). Kids actually greet him in the hall or as he enters a classroom. That is something that even having him with a mentor out in public can’t teach him, and I can’t teach him even in a group of other kids.

 

But with that all said, if we were to move to a couple of areas we are contemplating if job offers arise (and why we’d accept jobs in areas with poor schools is a whole other story), I’d homeschool him again because the school systems aren’t geared for kids like him; both would put him in a self-contained autism classroom, one had no idea what to expect as he would be their first child with Asperger’s. It would be a case of which would be more detrimental- homeschooling or public school. His siblings would go to public school, but would have extra “assignments” at home to eke out areas where I felt they needed a better education.

 

So, in a way, I guess which is best depends on the schools and the child as no two of either are alike, and there is no one-size-fits-all for either, and both have their own set of problems. Given average schools and average kids, public school is probably a better choice. Given poor schools and children with problems, then homeschooling is probably a better option.

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:24 am PST

Upgrade schools

I am 53 years old.  When I went to school things were different than they are now.  I was one of those children who struggled to learn.  We also moved a lot, and the schools in different cities and states have different requirements at different stages of development. One of these schools grouped children by grades, so you were in class rooms with children with the same low scores that you had.  How do you learn from that?

 

Teachers?  Getting a degree from a college just isn’t enough to be a teacher. 

 

I have two sons whom I raised mostly by my self, but had some help from my parents. Both had some difficulty in general or certain subjects which may have been attributed to moving several times, and changing schools.

 

My oldest was labeled “handicapped” after he failed 1st grade.  He struggled through every grade, but I think he may have had a level of HDAD.  There was one year when he was in 8th grade that I though he might have had a chance.  He came out of his shell that year and I think it was the teacher who did it.  However the next year he started high school and it all went down hill again.  He quit school at 17, at which time he went to live with his father.  Living with his father he learned that he wasn’t going to have it easy.  Eventually he moved back to the town we were living in when he quit, and moved in with friends.  He worked a multitude of jobs over the years and realized that he needed to get his high school GED or diploma.   My son is an artist whom I think was talented from a young age; however the world requires everyone to get an education.   He tried the online GED course but he just couldn’t comprehend.  His best friends girlfriend who also quit high school, found a local high school that had Adult evening education for free.   They both enrolled and attended for 2 yrs, this past May, both of them graduated at the ages of 30 and 31.  There was also a grandmother graduating at the age of 72. 

 

In any event I was extremely proud of my son for doing this.  It is difficult enough for some of us when we are teens, it is more difficult when we have to work days and attend school at night.  My son recently went to work at a new place that builds helicopters and he is very excited to be there.

 

My younger son was left back in Kindergarten and he actually attended day care prior to starting public school, but the school felt he was too immature. One of the schools he attended had a different approach where the student advanced at their pace, He was in 4th grade but had jumped to 5th grade level in most of his subjects, so the following year, he was allowed to advance to 6th grade and was now in with students his own age.  But again we moved around a couple more times. We ended up moving several states away in high school and the school did not have the same type of help for a student that struggles.  This son was great at math, but pretty much struggled with everything else.  He failed English 2 times in high school, after having difficulty with the English teacher the first time, I asked why he couldn’t have a different teacher, and they gave me a bunch of bull. He then quite and went to a local Technical Community College, and received his GED at age 21.

 

This is where I feel our country is failing at education.  There is some National level of education that schools desire to be at the top of so much that they fudge there test scores or label children that are on the low side of the scores so that they can be falsely be identified as one of the “best schools” in the country.  These children who are now falsely labeled will now be accepted as stupid and will not be pushed to be put back into the mainstream. 

 

There are the schools where the teachers are intimidated by parents who don’t care enough about the actual education, they just want their kids to be promoted to the next grade and eventually graduate, and it doesn’t mean they’ve learned anything.

 

I recently met a new teacher, who is living in my neighborhood.  We talked about how she teaches.  She goes out of her way to help her students, and she has a lot of “Labeled” students in her class room.  She told me that some of the older teachers at her school basically told her she is living in a dream world and some day she will give up too.  How sad that is.

 

I wrote to my senator this year about education. I read online about education in another country, where the money allocated for a students education, is attached to the student and not the city/town that their school is in.  This way a parent can transfer there child to a school best suited to them, that may be in the next town.  The schools have to compete for students, so they have to be on their best.  This is a test on the teachers.  If they do not do well, they should not be teaching.

 

I think the US should be able to do this.  Attach the money for each student to the student. Not the school district or City.  Make the teachers and the schools be more responsible.  Get rid of Teachers Unions that support bad teachers and pedophiles.

 

Protect the students who are there to learn. Who come to school and want to be safe.  Expel those that bring weapons and drugs to school.  

 

Do I think home schooling is good? Only if the parent responsible is well educated and is easily self educated.  Not all people can self educate.

 

Non schooling hmmmm, as Dr Phil said, these children have not had the school experience and can not make an educated decision on whether or not to go to school.

 

If we are required to pay the taxes to pay for school, we do need to change our education in these United States.  I hope that if/when I have grandchildren that public schools will have gotten better.

 

Put our pledge of allegiance back into the morning rituals at schools.  Those that don’t believe don’t have to recite it, just be respectful of those who do.   Take a moment of silence.

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:24 am PST

Amen to that

Quote From: homeschooljen

 I really don't think you can assess their social skills from the short time they appeared on your television.

How would you or I have responded to a question that disarmed us, in front of a crowd of people on national television?  I am really not sure. 
I think that "disarm" was a good choice of words. It is easy to come back with a response when you've had time to think about it. Some people, even public school educated adults, can't come back with a quick witty retort every time.
 
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