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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

Find out what happened on the show.

More November 2006 Show Boards.


 
sandrajuarez
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November 24, 2006, 3:20 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: steiwhleur

I graduated from an upper-middle class high school in 1990.  I thought I had learned what needed to be learned so that I could go on to college.  WRONG!  In college I had to pay for REMEDIAL math classes!!! I was so angry.  But then I looked around at who was in my remedial class and they were all students from North Hills High School!!  I wanted to bill the high school for my remedial classes, but my parents said I should just drop it.  I wish I had sent the high school a bill.  Maybe it would have caused them to take another look at their sub-par cirriculum!!

 

That was all hapening 16 years ago!  I now live in New Mexico and the schools here are horrific.  Graduates can't read, write, do math, spell....nothing!  My niece is in the 9th grade and probably reads on a 4th grade level.  She can't spell correctly if her life depended on it...and it does.  No one wants to hire someone too stupid to spell or add or divide correctly.  And her speaking is just as bad.  She sounds like a dullard.  This will haunt her for the rest of her life.  People will assume she's an idiot, not the kind, sweet, beautiful girl that she has become.

 

New Mexico ranks 43rd out of 50 for our inadequate schooling, yet our govenor refuses to address it.  Yes he's trying to throw money at the problem, but we need to start requiring more from the teachers and principals before we can make such demands on our children.  New Mexico also has a "don't ask" policy about if a child is an illegal or an American citizen.  Therefore our schools are flooded with illegals who only speak Spanish.  This adds to the teachers' burden---the teachers must learn and teach Spanish to "accomodate" these illegals.  No wonder we rank so low!!  New Mexico is like a 3rd world country in many ways.

 

Home schooling sounds like the way to go so long as the parents meet all the required credentials and they are diligent about teaching at home.  Home schooled kids should have some kind of network so that they can be around like-aged kids.  That way they can learn the socialization skills needed out in the real world.

 

For our retirement we are looking to go to the mountains of Montana -- maybe we'll find some smart people like us up there!!

So illegal children should not be able to go to school? Clearly it is not their fault that they were brought into this country illegally. I just find it interesting how you incorporated the topic of illegal immigration into this.
 
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bookworm31602

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November 24, 2006, 3:20 pm PST

Unschooling Debate

When in grade school, the public school system I attended experiment with haveing children proceed at their own pace. As I am now fifty years old, that was some time ago. The only subject I did not do well in was mathematics. (probably because I never could figure out new math and my parents couldn't help me either) Since we could proceed at out own pace, I did not do the math unless I had to.

 

So I was appalled when I learned about unschooling today. I work at a University as a librarain. Have worked here for sixteen years in a three different units.  The first set of parents are not thinking about their childrens future.  Most likely those children will be unable to hold down jobs. 

 

Between my expereinces at work and listening to the problems a friend of mine has who is an assistant manager at a resturant, we both have come to the conclusinion that many young adults do not have a work ethic today. They seem to think they can come and go as they please, make demands on others, and that others should run to do their work for them.

 

How are the unschooled children going to survive when they go to college or get their first job?

 

How will the unschooled children transition from an unstructured enviroment where you do what you want when you want to a structured enviorment where professors or supervisors expect you to met deadlines and follow rules and procedures and to be to class or work on time?

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:21 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

 I will agree that homeschooling is not for everyone, it is only for people who truly care about the education their child recieves.

 

So parents who don't home school don't care about the education of their children. Wow!

 

As a former school administrator who has watched countless children revolve in and out of homeschooling, I can tell you that your evidence is purely anecdotal and completely biased. I am sure you know many successful homeschooling families, but that doesn't mean there aren't many unsuccessful homeschooling families. You don't know them because they are not joining your network and keeping active in all the work and commitment it takes to educate a child.

 

I am glad your state has some sort of regulation. My state pretty much lets any parents simply say they are homeschooling, fill out a withdrawal form, and that's that. many parents pull their kids out of public schools because they are tired of the school informing them that children are not behaving or participating in their learning. Then they get them home and realize that their kids will misbehave, not cooperate, and refuse to learn at home too! HUGE surprise!

 

I have a Masters in education, and I have no plans to home school my two children. I take great offense at you insinuating that I don't truly care about my children's education.

While I can completely understand why you may have taken her response as an insult, I have to believe that she meant that homeschooling parents care about their child’s education from the standpoint they are willing to sacrifice in many ways in order to guarantee that their children know what they deem important, they can take the time to provide ample one on one attention (unlike the average 3 minutes per student a public school teacher is able to spend alone with each child per day), and they make the financial commitment to homeschool (homeschooling can be quite expensive- textbooks, workbooks, supplies and accessories, etc).  I do not believe she was saying that parents who send the children to public school do not care, but was merely stating the obvious, that homeschooling parents do love and care for their children and it is visible by their choice to make an ultimate sacrifice for them.

 

I have a PhD and I have every intention of homeschooling my children.  I can’t imagine what someone that is only required to obtain a BS in education can teach my child that I can not (and I only state that because I have spoke to numerous teachers who they themselves feel like that their BS degree in education was a waste of time and money, as earning the degree did not prepare them for an actual class setting (and it also seems odd to have someone teach my child chemistry who has only taken a high school chemistry class or learn math from someone who can barely solve an algebraic equation them self- at least at home I am able to get them a tutor from a professional in the field in which I lack knowledge, i.e. a chemist to tutor my child in chemistry)). I say too each his own… regardless of what society tries to force down our throat as “the right way”, we know what is best for our children.  I am just glad to live in a society where we actually have choices in how to educate our kids.
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:23 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mom930

I personally feel that traditional schooling is the best way for children to get a good education.  No, it's not a perfect system, but I feel that it is the best way for children to become aware of the world around them.  Socially, I think that homeschooling is not a great choice for kids.  Yes, parents can take their children to events and clubs, but most of those are things that interest the child.  What about those people in the world that are not like you?  How are you going to learn how to develp the skills needed to get along with other people.  I have never heard of unschooling until today.  My question is this...unless you are your own boss someday, how are you going to ever be happy working at a job where someone is telling you what to do?  The other complaint that I have are homeschooling parents who want to get their kids involved in sports affiliated with a middle or high school eventhough their kids don't attend those schools.  In my opinion, if they can't go to school with those kids, they can't play sports with them.  I am a public school teacher, so maybe I am a little bias.  I think one thing that would help our schools today is parental support and involvement. 
I just wanted to say that home school children go to classes for different subjects where the class is made up of many different kinds of children. Because I have experienced this first hand, I know that being able to deal with many different kinds of people is not a problem. I went from being home schooled to going to a very diverse university where nearly every type of person is represented in each class and I have no problems with it. Also, do you really think that children in public schools are learning the right way to deal with people different from them? I certainly do not see that occuring.
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:24 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

I'm a typical sixteen year old girl and I attend a fairly wealthy public high school. I currently have a 3.5 grade point average and I am very active in my school. I have a part time job teaching younger children gymnastics, I am a varsity cheerleader and varsity tennis player as a sophmore. I am a extremly social person and a very confident a cultured girl for my age. If I had been not given the chance at a young age to have all the oppotunities I have been given I belive I would not be as well-spoken and socialable as I am today. I speak four different languages;English, French,and Spanish all fleuently. If I never attended public schools I wouldn't know how to speak Spanish. If a child is not in a Public or Private school they really do miss out on all our dances that I help plan at my school and attend friday night football games. I live near Atlanta Georgia and football and cheerleading is a huge part of our lives and how our area functions. I belive that high school is one of the most pivitol points in our lives and really helps us become who we are today and there's really nothing that can replace that experience, it gives you the determination and will power to achieve all you can in the rest of your life. As a scholar athelete I will go to Emory Medical School,one of the most prestigious medical schools in the US and will go on to become a useful citizen and not an uneducated and almost useless adult.
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:24 pm PST

Thank you

Quote From: homeschool6

Look for the real homeschooling statistics:

The National Home Education Research Institute  - www.nheri.org

Home School Legal Defense Association - www.hslda.org

 

Also books like - The Successful Homeschool Family Handbook by Dr. Raymond and Dorothy Moore

Dorothy is a world class reading and curriculum specialist with many honors.  Dr. Raymond Moore began teaching in 1933. He taught college and was a principal and superintendent of city schools in California.  He was a Programs Officer for the US Office of Education. 

Thank you for posting these links. I already belong to HSLDA. I had no idea they had that information on their site. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:24 pm PST

response to Nicole's comments on the show

I was home schooled and briefly attended private Christian schools. I never attended public school, although my parents gave me that option when I was 16. Sometimes I wish I had tried public school just to have a fair comparison of all three venues. I am really only writing to respond to Nicole, the 26 year old who feels like a social outcast because she was home schooled. I can relate to what she is feeling. I always wanted to go to college but felt too intimidated. I finally went 3 years ago, I was 26. I will graduate this coming May and I will be almost 30.

What I want to say to Nicole is that it is a human instinct to blame our circumstances for our short comings. I know because I have been doing it for years. What I have realized, however, is that it is more an excuse and a justification not to take risks. When you call yourself a "social retard" you condemn yourself to that role. You do have the power to change this damaging thought process. No one wants to leave their comfort zone and face their fears head on. It is like starting up a new fitness program. Initially it hurts and you have to talk yourself in to it everyday, but eventually the pain lessens, the routine becomes automatic and you realize that change and growth is possible.

I have come to realize that I am not as socially challenged as I once believed. My parents were very shy, bordering on withdrawn, during their school years (they both attended public schools) and I have realized that my shyness is more a product of genetics than of being home schooled, as I once believed. Things are just not that black and white. Our entire environment shapes us into who we are.

The families belonging to my church all home school there children. Some are shy, while others are rather outgoing. It is not such a great mystery as to why. By looking at the characteristics of their parents it is easy enough to see a common behavioral pattern. I also know people who only attended public school who are so insecure with themselves that they will barely look me in the eye when they are talking to me. Are they socially retarded? How could that happen if they were exposed to other children everyday?

The bottom line is that you have no way of knowing how you would have turned out if you had attended public school. It is the easy way out to say if only this had happened or that had happened. You are only disabling yourself and clearly you are capably of so much more.

 
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November 24, 2006, 3:24 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mom930

I personally feel that traditional schooling is the best way for children to get a good education.  No, it's not a perfect system, but I feel that it is the best way for children to become aware of the world around them.  Socially, I think that homeschooling is not a great choice for kids.  Yes, parents can take their children to events and clubs, but most of those are things that interest the child.  What about those people in the world that are not like you?  How are you going to learn how to develp the skills needed to get along with other people.  I have never heard of unschooling until today.  My question is this...unless you are your own boss someday, how are you going to ever be happy working at a job where someone is telling you what to do?  The other complaint that I have are homeschooling parents who want to get their kids involved in sports affiliated with a middle or high school eventhough their kids don't attend those schools.  In my opinion, if they can't go to school with those kids, they can't play sports with them.  I am a public school teacher, so maybe I am a little bias.  I think one thing that would help our schools today is parental support and involvement. 
Contrary to the way unschooling was concluded as being on the Dr Phil show, we unschool our children.   In order to understand the posts written by unschoolers you have to suspend your biases and what the media has been saying about unschoolers for the length of time it takes to read the posts.

Parents do more than take their children to "events and clubs".  While many children are sitting in school being told the curriculum authors' point of view on what the world is like and being tested on it, my children are out there living in the real world.

I speak to many highschool grads, and they tell me they are happy to be graduating.  When I ask them "why?"  They reply, "Because it's finally nice to have the freedom to be in the real world doing what I want to do."

Unschooling is about passing on real-world life skills to your children.  It's full-time parenting.  No it does not mean the children hang around the parents all day, but the family time they get is more quality.  They don't get their children after they have just spent a long day being (over)stimulated at school and need to unwind, so they get to be there to be enthusiastic with their children's learning and development.

Unschooling does NOT exclude real world responsibility preparedness, it does not leave you suddenly asking "What's a schedule" for the first time in your life when you're say, 25, it does NOT exclude math, chores, sometimes doing boring things to get to "the good stuff".  Unschooling does everything a child needs, only the way they learn it is respectfully and hands on.

My children are not without experiences which require problem solving skills, either.  The only difference is when someone calls them a name or tries to bully them, they see it as wrong, not as "a necessary part of life".   They also have been treated all their lives with compassion and respect modeled in their home that they pass that on to other children.  They're not desensitized to children who encounter cruel behaviour and their heart has not stopped beating.  They are being trained that respect is "normal" and rudeness and harassment require action because these are unacceptable behaviours.

You don't know how many times I had some pretty horrific things happen to me at school only to be told that "it's a part of life".  However, when the same things are demonstrated on the news that the parents did to their children we are all (rightfully so, too!) horrified and disgusted, and the parents get their children taken away and are put in jail.  So, I suppose that these things are not a "part of life" at some point.  At some point these people have to stop doing these things that were acceptable as children if they want to be law abiding citizens.

My children are taught that when a gaggle of children do it to another child and bully and harass and make other people's life miserable that it's just as wrong as if a parent did it.  No matter who does the behaviour it's wrong.

That having been said, the idea that people can thrive and become successful without the aid of a long-term outside institution seems pretty unthinkable to some.  That is understandable.  There are many things in the world today which 70 or so years ago were unthinkable to the majority which now would be unthinkable not to have.

Unschooling is not a new practice.  It is a traditions old practice which produced many successful human beings.  I know many 30-40 year olds who were unschooled in the days when it was seen as something done by "fringe hippies".  They don't seem illiterate, nor do I think they earned their 65K per year salary flipping burgers, and if so, which restaurant and are they hiring ;-).
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:26 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: bookworm31602

When in grade school, the public school system I attended experiment with haveing children proceed at their own pace. As I am now fifty years old, that was some time ago. The only subject I did not do well in was mathematics. (probably because I never could figure out new math and my parents couldn't help me either) Since we could proceed at out own pace, I did not do the math unless I had to.

 

So I was appalled when I learned about unschooling today. I work at a University as a librarain. Have worked here for sixteen years in a three different units.  The first set of parents are not thinking about their childrens future.  Most likely those children will be unable to hold down jobs. 

 

Between my expereinces at work and listening to the problems a friend of mine has who is an assistant manager at a resturant, we both have come to the conclusinion that many young adults do not have a work ethic today. They seem to think they can come and go as they please, make demands on others, and that others should run to do their work for them.

 

How are the unschooled children going to survive when they go to college or get their first job?

 

How will the unschooled children transition from an unstructured enviroment where you do what you want when you want to a structured enviorment where professors or supervisors expect you to met deadlines and follow rules and procedures and to be to class or work on time?

Okay, so you've asserted that kids today have no work ethic. Kids that have, for the greatest part, come from the school system. Then you decide to worry over unschooled kids?
 
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November 24, 2006, 3:26 pm PST

Famous Homeschoolers

Dr. Phil says history is a valuable  teacher.  Here are the names of some famous homeschoolers (yes... some of them UNSCHOOLED)

 ARTISTS:  

  • Leonardo da Vinci  
  • Claude Monet  |
  •  John Singleton Copley  |
  • Andrew Wyeth  
  • Jamie Wyeth |
  •  
  • COMPOSERS:
  • Irving Berlin |
  • Anton Bruckner  |
  • Felix Mendelssohn  |
  • Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart |
  • Francis Poulenc  |

EDUCATORS:  

  • Frederick Terman (Stanford University President)   |
  • William Samuel Johnson (Columbia University President) |
  • Frank Vandiver (Texas A&M University President)  
  • John Witherspoon (Princeton University President) 

GENERALS:  

  • Stonewall Jackson  |
  • Robert E. Lee |
  • Douglas MacArthur  |
  • George Patton |

INVENTORS:  

  • Alexander Graham Bell |
  • Thomas Edison |
  • Cyrus McCormick |
  • Wright Brothers: Orville and Wilbur Wright |

PRESIDENTS:  

  • John Quincy Adams
  • William Henry Harrison
  • Thomas Jefferson
  • Abraham Lincoln
  • James Madison
  • Franklin Delano Roosevelt
  • Theodore Roosevelt
  • John Tyler
  • George Washington
  • Woodrow Wilson

PREACHERS & RELIGIOUS LEADERS:  

  • Moses
  • Joan of Arc
  • John the Baptist
  • William Cary
  • Jonathan Edwards
  • Phillip Melanchthon
  • Dwight L. Moody
  • John Newton
  • John Owen
  • Charles Wesley
  • John Wesley
  • Brigham Young

SCIENTISTS:  

  • George Washington Carver
  • Pierre Curie
  • Albert Einstein
  • Blaise Pascal
  • Booker T. Washington

STATESMEN:  

  • Konrad Adenauer
  • Winston Churchill
  • Benjamin Franklin
  • Patrick Henry
  • William Penn
  • Henry Clay

U.S SUPPREME COURT JUDGES:  

  • John Jay
  • John Marshall
  • John Rutledge

WRITERS:  

  • Hans Christian Andersen
  • Pearl S. Buck
  • Agatha Christie
  • Charles Dickens
  • Bret Harte
  • C.S. Lewis
  • Sean O'Casey
  • George Bernard Shaw
  • Mark Twain
  • Mercy Warren
  • Daniel Webster
  • Phillis Wheatley

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION DELEGATES:  

  • Richard Basset (Governor of Delaware)
  • William Blount (U.S. Senator)
  • George Clymer (U.S. Representative)
  • William Few (U.S. Senator)
  • Benjamin Franklin (Inventor and Statesman)
  • William Houston (Lawyer)
  • William S. Johnson (President of Columbia C.)
  • William Livingston (Governor of New Jersey)
  • James Madison - 4th President of the U.S.
  • George Mason
  • John Francis Mercer (U.S. Representative)
  • Charles Pickney III (Governor of S. Carolina)
  • John Rutledge (Chief Justice U.S. Supreme Court)
  • Richard D. Spaight (Governor of N. Carolina)
  • George Washington - 1st President of the U.S.
  • John Witherspoon (President of Princeton U.)
  • George Wythe (Justice of Virginia High Court)

OTHERS:  

  • Abigail Adams (Wife of John Adams)
  • Ansel Adams (Photographer)
  • Clara Barton (Started the Red Cross)
  • John Burroughs (Naturalist)
  • Andrew Carnegie (Industrialist)
  • Charles Chaplin (Actor)
  • George Rogers Clark - Explorer
  • Noel Coward (Playwright)
  • John Paul Jones (Father of the American Navy)
  • Sandra Day O'Connor
  • Tamara McKinney (World Cup Skier)
  • John Stuart Mill (Economist)
  • Charles Louis Montesquieu (Philosopher)
  • Florence Nightingale (Nurse)
  • Sally Ride (Astronaut)
  • Bill Ridell (Newspaperman)
  • George Rogers Clark (Explorer)
  • Will Rogers (Humorist)
  • Jim Ryan (World Runner)
  • Albert Schweitzer (Physician)
  • Leo Tolstoy
  • Martha Washington (Wife of George Washington)


Source: http://www.christianhomeschoolers.com/hs_famous_homeschoolers.html
 
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