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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 24, 2006, 6:03 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mouse22

I'm very glad to see that this issue is being addressed on the show. I was homeschooled for 12 years and have had a lot of opportunities to observe what happens to homeschooled kids who, like me, have become adults. Here is what I would like to say:

 

1) I don't think it's fair for anybody to say that homeschooling is, or is not, THE right way to educate kids. It's as individual a decision as the kids themselves, and needs to be made on a case-by-case basis.

 

2) If you think that isolating your kids to protect them from bullies, or bad teachers, or bad experiences, or peer pressure, is going to make them better at life, consider that it's going to be extremely tough for them to survive in the cut-throat, competitive, mean world that we live in if they're not prepared with some prior experience and social skills and emotional toughness. It's harsh, but it's a fact. Better to let them try and fail and experience a bit of temparary pain while they're still young and they have you to guide them through it, than to wait until they are away from you without your advice, and far too old to be going through these things for the first time, at that. And they will be forced to separate from you at some point- you cannot shelter them forever.

 

3) Consider that teachers are trained to recognize and address problems with learning, like learning disabilities. You love your kids very much, and believe that you're giving them an advantage over kids who go to public school and have so many issues there. But you may not be able to successfully recognize a learning disability, or know how to handle it.

 

4) Even if your kids do participate in extracurricular activities, there is still an us-vs.-them culture in homeschooling that inevitably exists, because the kids know that they are different and their situation is different from other people their age who go to public or private schools. If this is not handled carefully, it could lead to inferiority or superiority complexes. Also, if you do homeschool your kids, don't expect that just because they are involved in extra-curriculars, they will be well-rounded. It's still possible to be in these activities with other homeschool kids but be isolated from the real world.

 

5) As far as safety in schools- I think that most of the time, the stuff in the news is the exception rather than the rule, and it's important not to get fixated on it, in my opinion. I think it's like letting the bad guys win, if you let them scare you so badly that you are not able to let schools do what they are supposed to do, and be environments where kids learn how to be successful people. And even if you did homeschool your kids because the schools were dangerous, this would not guarantee that something terrible wouldn't happen somewhere else. I'm not saying that all schools are wonderful, safe places, or that I wouldn't even keep my kids out of some schools because they are so bad, but there has to be another solution than just withdrawing and isolating.

 

6) I'm not so sure about so-called child-directed learning, I think it would be great for improving/facilitating creativity, but one would have to be careful that there was balance. There is a place for alternative methods to teaching, but this has to be balanced with making sure that the kids can actually do math and write well and most importantly function in life successfully, considering that there is competition in the workplace and in society in general. It's just the way things are.

 

7) I also went through a period when I felt "socially retarded", and among my homeschooled friends, I have found that it's fairly common in one form or another- sometimes they don't always recognize it in themselves, but it's there. We homeschooled kids seem pretty aware that we are different, how could we not be. We just have varying degrees of feeling bad about it, and it manifests itself in some people differently than others. I went though a lot of pain when I reached early adulthood, because I had to deal with a lot of things that most people my age had dealt with for the first time in junior high or high school. I'm not saying that it's not possible to absolutely LOVE being homeschooled, or to have had terrible experiences in public or private school and found that homeschooling is your lifesaver... but the flip side of that is that being sheltered and relatively isolated has its own share of very serious problems. Parents may find it's easier to raise and control their kids when they are home all the time, away from peer pressures, etc., ...but the kids are the ones who will untimately deal with the consequences if they are unable to cope later on with the realities of independence and adult life away from their parents.

 

8) Homeschooling sets up an environment where the parents have total control, 24/7. Think about this. Without any outside influences or information, how would a child even know that they were being mistreated or possibly even abused? Of course, this depends on the degree of isolation, but still, the potential for abuse is huge. Being around family members 24/7 is stressful, any honest person would admit that. I am NOT saying that all homeschool families are abusive! But it's just something to be aware of, and think about long and hard before making any decisions about whether to do it.

 

9) There are the homeschooled kids who are enormously successful academically, who do well in school, have high IQ's, and go on to get full-rides scholarships to top universities, and I think it's wonderful and I say more power to them. But academics are not everything, and just because some kids do really well academically doesn't mean that others or even they themselves, don't struggle with social issues. Just something to think about, that's all.

 

Thanks for listening to my opinions.

I think the smartest thing you said is that it is no ones place to say that homeschooling is, or is not, right for each person, but you sure did bash homeschooling.  When you wrote about bullies and having to deal with them when you get older, I think you are terribly misinformed as to what bullies do in public schools. You were not there. Bullies had my son so miserable that he no longer wanted to live. He wrote me notes everyday of how much he hated school. After trying to resolve these issues at the school level, he is now homeschooled. He is happy again. I rather have a happy child that will miss the inappropriate social skills that the public school offers than have a miserable child. And, just a note, I never saw an adult pick on someone else the way that kids pick on their peers.
 

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November 24, 2006, 6:03 pm PST

Why do you believe this?

Quote From: constancemarie

I believe public schooling is the best way to go, especially for puberty-aged children and up. First and foremost, we must remember that just because a parent is well educated on a certain topic does not mean they are very well qualified to TEACH that subject, especially to a child. Teachers are required to go to school and complete certification for a reason! Also, in school students are able to come together with other students, work with each other and learn from each other all the while learning how to work WITH each other in a structured setting. Cooperation skills are skills that are just not acquired very well by homeschooled children, yet they are skills required in today's working environment.

 

Secondly, public schooling allows for various experiences to happen, some good and of course some bad. Previous posters have commented on the exposure to bullying as a downfall of public schooling, and of course anyone would agree that bullying is a very unfortunate situation that we would all want to protect our children from. At the same time, bullying is a REAL part of this WORLD, not just school. Instead of running from it, and essentially teaching our children how to hide from it, why not teach them how to address the situation in a proactive and productive manner? Which do you think will better benefit them in the long run?

 

Besides that, this nation is becoming more and more culturally rich and diverse. Sure, you may put your daughter in dance, and your son in football, but is that truly exposing them to all of the cultures and beliefs that make our nation so great? Dancing for a few hours a week with a group of girls most likely of similar racial, cultural, and economical backgrounds does not compare to learning and working with both sexes from a wide variety of backgrounds for several hours a week.

 

Homeschooling does not prepare children for the real world because it is not the real world. Why rob your children of such important experiences that will certainly make them better, more well-adjusted and more well-prepared individuals?

 

 

Why do you believe that home learning children are not exposed to and experiencing much of what  you wrote?  Why you believe that they do not experience negative behaviour or conflicts and conflict resolution?  Why do you believe that they do not meet, interact and learn with the opposite gender from culturally diverse backgrounds?  Why do you believe they do not work with deadlines and within groups?  You  must be opposed to all girl or all boy toney private schools as well.  What makes you believe they do not understand how to work cooperatively?  When I was a child in school, cooperative learning was not yet a trend and yet somehow I learned how to work very well in a group. Why do you believe that our children are not exposed to a variety of  experiences daily?  It would appear as though you are ignorant to what home learning actually is.
Homeschooling not only prepares our children for the real world but it teaches them how to make the world their own.  What is not the real world, is school in a box.  Never again will your children be grouped by age and hand delivered a prescribed set of information at a certain age. Never again will they be told what to learn and when.  My own children have fostered learning habits that are very similar to ones they will need if they choose to attend post-secondary education. They are honing those skills much earlier in life than their public schooled counterparts. They are internally motivated, just as they will need to be in real life.  There are no gold stars or rewards in this household except for the personal richness that evolves from learning how to learn.  Your own children will in fact attend post secondary education with home learners.  There are millions of home schooled children in our world.
Considering how schools are filled, generally according to locations of residences, I can state with confidence that my children experience far more cultural and economical diversity amongst their peers than the average student in public school.  Our family is very wealthy and yet my children do not interact only with children from our own wealthy neighbourhood.  The difference is that my children don't care if the child they made friends with have the latest and greatest of everything or that parents' income bracket is not even close to ours. They also don't care if their friends are clothed in the 'right' in the latest clothing.   They are friends due to common interests, not a chosen social structure that is dependant on our address. 
There is no robbing taking place in our home. 
Michelle
 
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November 24, 2006, 6:03 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: pietva

You have a wild imaginary world created for me to be living in! Sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll are NOT products of the schools! It's from HOME, and the idiots who cannot parent, or say, "NO!" to a child-tyrant. A Prom promiscuos [sic? There are some nasty dancers, but that is starting to change. It is the PARENTS who got kids in that situation, not the school, by the way. As for the "drug offer", that was stated as OFF CAMPUS, and the preparation to resist was a result of school classes (even though I find D.A.R.E. some kind of big business scam, nearly worthless.) As soon as you discuss group activities, you must admit you are talking about a SCHOOL - just a specialized private school. I have been incredibly impressed by some of the Eritrean children I have taught or helped in the library. It is the PARENTS who insist they be mature, polite, and extremely brilliant students. The true difference is the PARENTS.
no,  stand very correct in my statements. They might not be products of the schools, but they are encouraged and led on in school. No, drugs are done in schools, not just off campus. Why do you think that they have started lock downs, and bringing drug dogs to school? Yes, a lot of it is the parents, but a lot of it is the school also. The dirty dancing might change in some places, but not all.
 
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November 24, 2006, 6:04 pm PST

Yipee

Quote From: oooffca

 

My five children are unschooled.  They have all taught themselves to write, read, do art, play music, and they go on field trips and travel. They also play a lot of video games.  They began public school in their grade 9 years and are getting marks in the 90's.  They have deep caring relationships with their friends and family.  They are not consumer robots.

 

In fact, I called them to watch Dr. Phil's show and we had a impromtu lesson in Uninformed opinions, debate protocol, emotional intelligence, propaganda (of course the school official is going to protect his job and thus, his opinion will reflect that), controlling relationships and watching TV with a critical eye.   All that education in one hour!   Much more efficient then jail...(Oops...I mean school)  Thanks Dr. Phil! 

 

 

 

I wanted to say I am right with ya, I taped it so my 6 little unschoolers can watch it at their leisure and discuss it later with the family.  :)
 
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November 24, 2006, 6:05 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: pietva

Rolled her eyes? Ooooh, how VICIOUS! I think you need to know that zero tolerance exists, and a real bully will get into deep trouble. Whining parents need to do more than sit in offices with other adults - perhaps take a role in the classrooms, and bullies' parents need to see psychologists. Situations must be followed up, and teachers who can merely send a child to the office get fired, eventually, when it is the bully and the parents who encourage sociopathy. ("Someone teases you, you hit them!")
Well, rolling one's eyes at a parent who is coming to the principal's office IS "vicious" in my opinion.  (and I overheard some of the things she was complaining about!  Should such an atmosphere be in the home, at the very least the child would be ripped from the home!) Not getting taken seriously on an issue which affects a child's well-being in a place they are going to spend 35 hours a week is kind of vicious, non?  Especially when they are told "any problems you report it to the principal."

Which is it?  We get told that schools have "zero tolerance", but when parents seek to have that zero tolerance enforced the reality is they find out precisely HOW many children are being treated badly.  So is it "zero tolerance" or not?  It seems to me like it's 50% tolerance.

You say "Situations must be followed up", but that is what parents are DOING in the principal's office, checking up on progress on the situation, spelling out their child's needs, AND yes, volunteering at the school too!  Also, some parents have more than one child, so going into the classroom when they also have other children to care for is not always a realistic availability.

I make no apologies for being the squeaky wheel and pro-active parent I was TOLD I "should be".  I make no apologies for feeling sorry for the parents who went to the principal and asked them to ensure the teachers did their job and got nothing but an eyeroll.

Yes, getting an eyeroll when schools, (and people on this board!) insist that "complaints get taken seriously) is hypocritical and unhelpful of parents who insist that their children's learning environment be a viable one.
 
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November 24, 2006, 6:05 pm PST

Bullies & Parents

Quote From: chrise99

What happens when the principal is best friends with the school bullies parents and she allows the kid to get away with breaking your child's arm and harrassing your 7 year old autistic daughter?  I called the school board office and they didn't believe that it happened.  You fight city hall in your reality world.  My child is safe at home and doing well with his homeschooling.  He coexists with a homeschool group and fieldtrips and several parents teaching with all different styles.  The kids don't always get along, but they learn to work out the situations without "killing" eachother. 

I teach in a public school and my kids go to public schools. This is a drag what happened to you kid. I see it and I step in and clean house. I backed up a parent who went after an admin who did nothing. I wasn't popular for it but who cares.

When it happened to my child I gave the school fair warning and then i let my child go on the offenders. It ended quickly. I also went to visit one of the parents - a sheriff's deputy - and expressed my concern over his future health. It did the trick.

Being an educated man it bothers me to stoop to that type of pressure but I knew that was all he knew and would understand.

Good luck with your situation. I hope it resolves soon.

 
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November 24, 2006, 6:05 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: rs8180

Thank you,

 

It's the nicest thing I have heard here.  It is Love,  thats all I can say, It is hard work and life changing but worth it.  This whole show shook my confidence.  I can read and write and do arithmatic and took three yrs of college, didn't get my degree but I tell you I am learning so many things I didn't know teaching 3rd grade.  It is fun and very very rewarding.

 

Thank you again

Teach spelling, too. (First Grade we made up "A Rat In The House May Eat The Ice Cream") Don't you know kids get love from their teachers? Are you teaching other people's kids? Things you didn't know? Hunh - how irresponsible. Yes, some kids can learn faster, ignore the rabble, others cannot. There are classes for gifted, and for special education kids, and we need SMALLER classes and better grouping and techniques available. We do need to restructure schools and classrooms, but that won't happen by closing them down, or taking part of the money to pay corporations to take a profit out of our kids' education funds. Nor by deciding that the lower classes don't deserve any attempt at an education, so cut all taxes, and keep your kids at home, or pay an extra $20,000 per year to shelter them. Science-fiction doomsday, here we come.
 
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November 24, 2006, 6:05 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

I don't think that home schooling can match up to public or private schooling.  I would like to know how parents plan on exposing their children to advanced subjects such as physics, chemistry, calculus or technology classes?  Students gain a great deal of knowlege through interaction with other students.  Home schooling limits the success their children can attain. 

 
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November 24, 2006, 6:06 pm PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: asentope

We can't always assume that a protective bubble is a bad thing, and that sheltering people from "reality" is going to keep them hidden in society, and destroy their chances in life.  People need to realize, that leaving their children without any sort of protection is just as bad, if not worse... because we are leaving them in this "reality", and they are learning these things!!

If society is causing so many problems, then why are we still allowing our children to involve themselves in situations such as schools, where these problems are originating?  Wouldn't we want to be protecting them from this?  I feel as if you're being slightly hypocritical in this sense... and I'm not sure I'm completely able to pick out your opinion on the situation.  Perhaps this is why I reacted a touch irrationably.
You can't change reality if you refuse to see it, or try to live in a cave.
 
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November 24, 2006, 6:07 pm PST

ARE YOU SMART ENOUGH

 

For all those who say the they must home school their children are you smart enough to teach them what it takes 60+ teachers in 13 years of schooling to teach them. These are people who have 4 to 8 years of college above a high school education.  I have been around home school children I have a brother in law who is home school his children and  I can see the social skills that his kids are lacking.  These children must be able to take directions from someone other than mom and dad.  Their oldest has no respect for adults and is going to be out in the world in just 6 months.  He is not ready for college or getting a job.  Yes, they have home school group that they go to plus the church.  but it still is not enough in today world. 

 

One questions are you able to teach them to they can earn enough to support a family in the future?  Are they going to be able to handle being around other people for 8 to 12 hours a day and do a job effectly and not lose it because of being out in all of the goinging on of the world and not lose it.  For most home schooler life is very easy and quite but that is not the way of the world.  The world  going very fast and very loud.

 

As for the no schoolers HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND!!   END OF SUBJECT!!!

 

FEAR---IS  NO REASON TO HOME SCHOOL. YOUR FEAR THAT THE CHILDREN WILL BE HARMED WHILE IN SCHOOL IS NO REASON TO HOME SCHOOL.  All that will do to your children is they will grow up in fear that something will happen to them.  Do not do this to them. 

 

The shooting at the Amish school house in PA  is not a good example to use.  You must understand the live of the Amish  That school house had no protection from just anyone walking in no phone. or locked doors.  Most public school have cameras and locked doors when school is in.  I live in PA and not far for that school and it has not changed any thing in the public school here because of the school system safety nets. 

 

 

 
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