Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

Two great, short readings about the underlining uses and affects of public education are: The Seven Lesson School Teacher by John Taylor Gatto and From Social Class and The Hidden Curriculum of Work by Jean Anyon

purplepenny wrote: My husband's Aunt is an 'unschooler'... her children are sharply behind when it comes to every subject... I personally find it to be a very irresponsible thing to do. Our society requires education and society benefits from it. Not everything is learned as a side effect of living. That's ridiculous.

If something is not learned as a side effect of living,then what purpose does it serve? If, through the course of living my life, I do not encounter a situation where I must have knowledge or skill concerning ability X, then why do I need to have ability X? If I do happen to find myself in a circumstance where I need or want ability X, then I have take an opportunity to learn it. If one is open to learning new things as they are dictated by interest or necessity, then learning will come naturally as it proves useful or desirable. It is quite a waste of time to fill one's head up with information that might or might not prove useful at some distant time in the future. There is already so much knowledge and skill to be learned and mastered at any given time because it is required by circumstances which present themselves on a daily basis.

Underlying purplepenny's writing is the (incorrect) assumption that unschoolers do not seek out opportunities but only learn that which falls directly into their lap. Children who have the freedom and support to follow their own interests do not spend all their days just sitting idly and waiting for something to knock them on their noggin. Behind the philosophy of unschooling is a love of learning and desire to seek out knowledge, which all children have naturally. Unschoolers (and other homeschoolers) give their children the gifts of time and opportunity, which empowers children by allowing them to make use of these natural characteristics.

Additionally, nobody has perfect knowledge and ability. We all have strengths and weaknesses. Nobody knows everything about every topic conceivable by man. I have many skills but cannot, off the top of my head, solve complicated algebraic equations. For one, math is not my strong suit (lack of desire). Secondly, I have not had reason to exercise this skill (lack of necessity), so it's pretty much fallen right out of my head. However, if I ever find myself needing to solve complicated equations, I could certainly tackle learning it and I'm fairly confident that I'd be successful. Up until that time comes however, I will not be motivated to spend time mastering a skill I have no use for. I don't feel that I am lacking in intelligence or ability by not having this skill, as it is not useful in my life at this time.

Life is an on-going learning process. Unschoolers are simply experiencing that process organically and at an earlier age than most of us do. Unschooling is not a perfect process by current academic standards, but then again neither are the very teaching methods that current academic standards adhere to.

There will always be gaps of knowledge, regardless of educational approach. The perceived difference between the gaps of unschoolers versus those that schooled children comes down to a comparison of who has mastered the material deemed The Most Important. But this is a subjective matter - what is The Most Important stuff to know in order to function properly will vary from child to child, depending on what is required of them to have a successful life. And success is another subjective word as well.

Public schools have decided that certain sets of information and skills are necessary, based on the very generalized needs of society as a whole. It is this generic blueprint that is taught in classrooms. In comparison, unschoolers are learning information and skills which are necessary and important to living their individual lives. If we view society as a entity which is made up of individual parts, it is clear that we each must learn to function as specialized parts of the whole.Unschoolers have a jump on this. And there is no reason to assume that they do not also master the basic requirements perceived to be necessary to the whole.

gr8ful4him wrote: This is the first I've actually heard of 'unschooling',and it sounds ridiculous! I suppose it's a part of the whole self esteem idea...if we don't test them, they can't 'fail', and then they won't think poorly of themselves! In life, we are tested daily. If we have a job and don't complete it satisfactorily, we are in jeopardy of losing that job...it's a test of sorts. To raise a child in an environment that they are never tested and only learn what comes to them as a side effect of living is to be neglectful of that child's well-being for the future.

Yes, we are tested daily in life. But most of life's little tests arrive through living and are coupled with natural consequences. For example, if we want to learn to drive then we must be willing to pursue training and become proficient enough to pass a test. If we pass our test, we are issued a license. If we fail, we are not. This process was arrived at through desire or necessity and the consequences for passing or failing are directly related to the task.

It should be noted that testing at school is arrived at artificially and the immediate consequences of success or failure are rarely related to the tested skill. These tests are not good indicators of actual ability or skill level. Nor can they accurately measure the desire or motivation of the student. Additionally, they often have poorly worded questions which produce confusion and anxiety.

gr8ful4him uses an example of job performance, which again is a test that is arrive at naturally with consequences that correspond directly to the tested skill. If one is motivated to keep their job, they will perform at the necessary level. If one desires a raise or promotion,they will perform above the expected level.

Given that most of us have our abilities and desires challenged in this manner, it is quite inaccurate to assume unschoolers don't encounter these sorts of natural tests everyday through living, or to think that they do not experience consequences just because it is not a letter grade marked on the top of a test paper. It is also ridiculous to assert that refusal to engage in artificial testing equates to neglect.

-- Susan (uuohana)

What concerns me, is that I think many with devout religious beliefs, are using home schooling to indoctrinate their children and avoid exposure to other religious beliefs or science they feel contradicts their religious beliefs.  This is one reason there is so much hatred bred in the theocracies of the Middle East, where their schools and teachings are run by radical religious teachers.   

 

Religion should be taught by parents, and non-religious subjects should be taught in school.  Eventually, the children will decide whether they conflict (I don't believe they do) and what they believe.  But they deserve the benefit of full exposure and knowledge before making those choices. 

Have you actually spoken with real teachers about this issue?  (Or, by your own admission, just read....?!)

 

In my community, and in so many others, fewer than half of the teachers actually belong to the teachers union.  Furthermore, the legislature--Republican majority in my state--and the School Board--elected by parents--dictate funding, budgets, required testing, curriculum, texts, etc. 

 

In other words, we teachers have exceptionally little control over the big issues. So what's the problem?

 

I expect to be supported in my professional decisions--just as a parent would support a doctor or a lawyer.  My being a parent, my 3 degrees, my 20+ years teaching experience, and my good ol' middle America common sense qualify me for my stance.  Consequently, because I enjoy positive relationships with my families and community, I don't feel I have to offer any competitor's gimmicks; my results speak for themselves.  Parents know I chose to be a teacher; I work hard at what I do; and we have a common goal:  to provide the best possible education for children.  Doesn't get much better than that. (And last time I checked, few grown folks were beating down the door to become public school teachers.)

 

We had no problems back in the Sputnik era supporting government schools--after all, we had to beat the Russians to the moon.  Talk about a government agenda!  --And Lord help the child if the school had to call home.  A beating was issued w/o question.  Schools were revered for their in loco parentis status.

 

What's so different now?   Why do parents--most of whom went through public schools themselves--seem so mistrustful of schools and teachers?   What's the real issue here?

I look forward to further discussion.  Have a nice day. 

 

 

Well, our family has found our way (outside the school system) for the last 4 years to be immensely healthy, therapeutic, and educational.  It sure beats babysitting the teachers to make sure they are doing their job. 

Former teachers at my children's school who run into my children today are very pleased with how well they are doing.

Most people homeschool or unschool not because it's a "last resort", but because it's just their way.  That basically applies to us.

Most people, when they are dissatisfied with a product or a service, they stop buying it.  They don't join the company.

After I read the review of this program, I clicked on Related Links: Five Core Steps to Good Parenting .  I'd like to quote #5—

 

You have to put your kids in a world where they feel a sense of mastery over their own environment. It's important that they don't feel they're subject to arbitrary guidance or haphazard decisions.  

 

Wow! That sounds like strong support for all forms of home education, including unschooling, during the high school years!  Unlike elementary, we never felt a sense of mastery over our environment at public high school.  It wasn't that the "guidance" was arbitrary; actually it was stringently defined: Jock cliques were superior to geek cliques. The prom was the crown jewel of socialization. Becoming invisible was preferable to ridicule. ...No, except for the few elite, there was little sense of mastery over one's environment at the public high school. 

 

For those of us who have matured and no longer consider throwing a ball through a hoop or wearing a formal gown to a gymnasium as a 'real world' achievement, we will find our sense of mastery outside the school building.  

 

 

______

A PS to Coop: In our state the term "alternative school" means the kid was too disruptive or dangerous to be in a regular school. Any kid found with drugs is automatically transferred to the alternative school. Class size is cut in half and most of the coursework is remedial. I am sure you are not referring to THAT kind of alternative school; but anyone pursuing your advice had better know also.

My unschooled children watched it also.  They were constantly pointing out "Is THAT what they think unschooling is like?" or "We have lots of friends!  And they ARE all different ages and religions!" or "We have real life problems we have to solve too!"

This was coming from THEIR mouths.  They found the show to be a very interesting study in the perpetuation of human ignorance and myths. They abound very quickly and people are quick to believe what they hear on TV especially from icons like Oprah or Dr. Phil.

But the old myths abound.  "How are these kids gonna learn ANYthing when they're not in the real world?".  The defenses that they ARE in the real world, and are not just living cushy lifestyles fall on deaf ears.

I found the "show of hands" amusing - as if that's a real indicator of anything.  I find a "show of hands" to be the most inauthentic way of voting there is.  People look around to see who else is raising their hand, and they copy.  Many people at school, including myself, did that.  Only the truly daring and brave raised their hands when they were sure to be "in the minority."
Look up Cass Sunstein sometime. He talks about people's resistance to voicing their opinion.

You probably love your children more than anyone, you probably want what's best for them, and yet you don't think it would be healthy for them to be with you all day.  I've heard this argument before and often wondered how people come to that conclusion.

I could argue against your other points since, while they may be valid for you, are not in most cases a cause for concern. I would like to say that most home-schoolers support your right to come to those conclusions, we just wonder why people get so defensive about their choices and in the process, feel the need to put down our choice to home-school.

KT, mom to three socially adept, articulate, responsible home-schooled young men

While not everyone advances in that direction (I know a person who was public schooled her whole childhood and upon graduating, her field of study did not involve those things), I know many homeschoolers AND unschoolers who  are not surprised when they are older and certain coursework needs to be done for various skill certification.  They are made aware at some point between when they are born and when they "hit adulthood" that they will need credentials.

I know families who are unschooled, and the older child at the age of 17 is for the first time in his life, seeking coursework (college), and is the top of his classes and very mature and capable of handling the material, because he had independently learned about, and pursued the various subjects all his life.

Homeschoolers and unschoolers alike, while their childhood learning specifics may differ, are all made aware of the various things they'll need to know and do if they choose to pursue paths that require those courses.

 What, do you think that homeschooling parents are uneducated, stupid dolts?

In my husband's family alone, we have a Deputy Sheriff, two Paramedic/Firefighters, a couple of Preachers, two Teachers (one who has a degree to teach the deaf), several musicians and singers, carpenters, mechanics, and a nurse. My side of the family has a couple of engineers, insurance inspector, prison guard, salesman, factory workers, and one who works for Homeland Security and two who were soldiers in Iraq. My mother works for the government and my father was a tool grinder at a factory for 30 yrs. I am studying to be a Paralegal. We have friends and fellow church members from all walks of life.

Pretty well-rounded bunch of people, don't you think? Also, there are these things called BOOKS.
I don't see how being in public school automatically makes you want to be a professional whatever.