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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 25, 2006, 6:14 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: doggypoo

The lack of diversity on the show disappointed me greatly.

 

Un- and home-schoolers appear to be [upper middle class white folks who have in-tact marriages that enable the mother to stay at home.  So this is the real world, eh?!  No single-parent families?  Nobody but white folks available?!

 

As a divorced single mom (but with a doctorate and 20+ years of public school teaching), I know that home-schooling my son is simply not an economic option--nor for most single parents. 

 

Tonight's show, while supposedly presenting the polarity of the great school debate, simply showed choices that in-tact, two-parent families make. 

 

Now how 'bout showing the real school issues facing other real Americans, esp. single parents? 

 

 

I am a single mom and radical unschooler.  I, too, hold a doctorate, but chose to use mine to become self-employed to allow myself the flexibility I need to raise my children the way I see fit.

 

Everyone has choices.  Sometimes those choices are not the ones people think about, like quitting their job and starting a business.  Or downsizing their life, cutting down on consumables do decrease the income needed to live on

 

The world is so full of options, that to consider yourself unable to do something is inaccurate.  It's all about the choices we make.

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:19 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: danamikayl

I know you are frustrated and I can understand that. We are all very passionate about our children and that is the GREAT thing I'm reading here tonight and we can all learn from everyone here. I know it's hard because there is some attacking and anger here, but if we can look past that, our children can benefit from what we can all learn from each other. We should all just post the way we choose to educate and then people can take what they like and leave the rest. We don't have to attack each other. I for one want to learn what is working for other families. I was reading about Michelle's children and how they don't use flouride and I was interested in learning something new about something that coudl benefit my children

I'll go first! Please don't attack, but tell me what you do in your home. This means for everyone here.

Well I have 2 girls, ages 12 and 5 and I live in Canada and have unschooled for almost 3 years.

It is working really well for our family. For the next month, my 12 year old and I are doing volunteer work for the x-mas holidays. We love it alot. We volunteer for the Salvation Army and F.A.C.S (childrens aid society) and she gets to be out in the community, she works with people and with money. I would not say she learns compassion because she already has that, but she gets to hear stories and meet people from all walks of life and I think that's important. She also loves to read and she goes to the library twice a week and volunteers there one day a week to help put books away that are returned. She has a paper route and she earns $150 per month. She does the collecting and book work herself and gets herself out of bed each morning at 6am to have her papers delivered by 7. I have talked to her about savings and money and she has her own bank account, but what she chooses to do with the money is her choice. I feel my job id to guide, not to force. We are working on some geography because that's what she is interested in. She wants to get some books on photography because she loves to take pictures, so for x-mas I bought her a camera and lots of film to encourage her passion. These are only some of the good things going on with her. Now the other side of the coin is that she is 12 and going through lots of changes with her body and she doesn't want to go through them in front of 27 children and she says she is thankful for not being in school. She gets moody at times and just wants to curl up with  a book and be alone in her room or in the tub for awhile and I'm glad she can do that. Life is not always perfect and sometimes my house can be chaotic and my 2 girls will argue, but we have done both the school and unschooling and this is what works the best out of both for our family.

I wanted to talk about what my 5 year old is doing, but I'm tired and now and have to get to bed, so will chat and read all your wonderful posts tomorrow to see what workd for all of you and what doesn't.

Have a great sleep!

Sherri

Sherri, I've shared a lot over the past 200 pages already.  Just follow my Avatar.  Lots of information given and I'm too tired to retype it all. :)
 
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November 25, 2006, 6:26 am PST

Schooling Debate

If parents home school or unschool their children because they do not perceive public school education as perfect they will find later their children will still enter an imperfect world.  Education is not just about learning facts and figures or being able to recall information in a rote way to pass a test.  Part of what public education seeks to accomplish, in addition to social skills and socialization, is to help a person to begin to filter information and think for themselves.  The student may wind up agreeing with what their mother and father taught them and they may not.  This is part of becoming an individual and keeps us from becoming pure clones of our parents.  The two oldest children of the parent who pulled them from public school did not appear to be very happy to me.  And the mother who wants to protect her little girls from the dark side of the big, bad world may do that when they are children.  However, at some point they will go out on their own and mommy will not be there to protect them.  This mother's fear of  "the world out there" will certainly be passed on to her children and they will not grow up to be as well adjusted as they could be.  Plus the mother's own fear I'm sure is keeping her from enjoying life as much as she could and possibly could shorten her own life.  Parents are most welcome to seek other forms of education for their children.  However those who attempt to throw away public education as useless are looking at life through rose colored glasses.  At some point those glasses will be broken by the light of reality.

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:29 am PST

Peer Approval

When I look at my unschooled children, I see happy children who are happy and confident about who they are.  They have a lot of friends, they meet people all ages, and from all walks of life.

This happiness and confidence in who they are stems from the fact that they're never told that their likes, dislikes, passions, quirks, are not "cool".  Their true selves are not suppressed for the sake of approval by a classroom full of children.  They are embraced and accepted without having to meet all the criteria that most kids in school complain about (I work with children who are in school, so I get to be eyes and ears to a lot of children's thoughts and ideas)


 
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November 25, 2006, 6:31 am PST

Canadian Teachers

As a Canadian teacher, I take exception to the idea that teachers "stand in front of a classroom and talk at the children."  That is only one way to "teach" and, for all intents and purposes, a very weak way to teach.

 

Teachers attend workshops, pay for university courses ($800 - $900 each) and collaborate with colleagues to help improve the way we deliver curriculum to our students.  Many students do not have the real world experiences that they should have, so it is our duty to bring these experiences into our classrooms.  We provide field trips, guest speakers, experiments and hands-on activities that supplement the curriculum.  It is as unfair to group teachers into one category (lecturers) as it is to group all homeschoolers (laissez-faire).

 

As far as thinking that teachers teach ONLY the curriculum, again that is an unfair statement to make unless you have worked a day in our shoes.  We are psychologists, social workers, parents, advocates, confidants, role models, all rolled into one.  Public schools are not perfect, but neither is believing that just because you can read a book or go to a museum, that you can be a teacher.

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:36 am PST

successful homeschooling

I would have expected Dr. Phil to have a real in-depth look at the variety of ways to homeschool and the many reasons people choose this path.

 

In the "uncensored" part of his website, Dr. Phil talks about making a choice between a homeschooler and a college educated person.  ?????  Why the assumption that homeschoolers don't go to college?   And why the concern about "socialization" in the middle and high school years?

 

I have hosted a homeschool-to-college seminar twice now, with admissions officials from some top colleges.  Their attitude about homeschoolers can be summed up in the phrase, "bring me more!"  One official said, "homeschoolers are a college admissions dream."

 

Another said that while homeschoolers don't usually have the long list of extra-curricular activities that traditionally schooled students do, they are very passionate about the ones they have chosen.

 

Homeschoolers have no trouble getting into schools like Stanford, University of Virginia, MIT and so on. 

 

My daughter is in 10th grade.  She consistently scores in the high 90s on standardized tests.  She began taking community college courses at 15. (under a process called dual-enrollment, where her two courses a semester count for both high school and college credits) 

 

She is in Girl Scouts, manages a bluebird-monitoring trail, volunteers as a colonial re-enactor, does colonial dancing and has attended several balls.  She plays the piano, accordion and bowed psaltery.  She loves science and math.  On her own, she has begun studying anthropology in depth.  She publishes a bi-montly newsletter.  She's funny, happy and comfortable around folks of all ages.

 

More importantly, she doesn't have to confine her work on various subjects to 45-minute segments.  If she wants to spend a whole morning on a science project, she can.  She can always catch up on Algebra 2 in the evening or on weekends.  We are not confined to "school" from 8 to 3.

 

Her homeschooled friends are involved in theater, sports, band, etc.  Our field trips - several a month, - range from Shakespeare productions and science-oriented ones to historical sites and park days.

 

Homeschooling is as enriching or as limiting as one chooses it to be.  That's the key.  It's a lot of work, but if taken seriously, is a delightful partnership between parents and children.

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:38 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: barbie608

Today was the first day that I had heard of "unschooling".  Granted I live a rurual state and I am sure some people here are doing that.  I am the mother of 2 girls, ages 20 & 13.  While I shared the same fears of sending my babies into the public school system, I choose to send my girls to a private Catholic school even though I am personally not Catholic.  I also feel that if I chose to send my girls to public school they would have faired well.  There are just a lot more opportunities at private schools because of the size and that is what I like the best about it.  Home schooling was never an option for me.  There is no way that I can take the place or teach my children what most teachers do.  I would fall short many times and I am a college graduate.  I am now a public school teacher and have been so for six years.  Do I now feel that I am capable of home schooling or "unschooling".  Absolutley not.  I have had children in my own classroom who have been home schooled and then sent to public high school where I teach.  It is very easy for me to pick them out.  I am not saying that every home schooler could be identified but the characteristics that I saw were obvious.  The biggest characteristic I saw was the socialization aspect. I can think of two children in particular. I asked them a lot of questions about being home schooled and how their parents went about it.  One student was on a strict curriculum with deadlines, expectations, goals, etc.  She had no trouble doing her school work but never overcame her social inadequacies even after four years.  Yes she was involved in outside activities while being home schooled but that did not take the place of learning how to socially interact on a daily basis.  While this student graduated with a 4.0 average, even her parents said they have a hard time getting her out of her shell and now are concerned how she will fair in college.  The other student  seemed to socialize a little better (still uneasy though) but was never able to meet one deadline that I gave him.  I asked him about his home schooling and he said he was never on a deadline or any type of time table.  He completed his home school work whenever he finished it with no consequences.  He had to stayed after school many times to complete assignments and has struggled all four years of high school to learn to make the adjustment.  He personally told me that this was a drawback for him from home schooling.  Now before all the home schoolers attack, I will again say that everyone is different and cannot be lumped together.  It is your child and your choice.

 

One major issue about home schooling that was not addressed is entrance into college.  Before becoming a public educator, I worked at our local university in the admission department.  Home schooling diplomas are not accepted to attend our university.  In order for home schooled students in our area to attend their local university, they must take a GED test so they can be admitted for college.  There is one private institutuion in our area who accepts home schooled diplomas but of course the cost is very high.  I do not know the rules for other state universities/colleges concerning home schooled diplomas only what my institution required.

 

My overall feeling is that as parents we must make decisions for our children.  Our children are not capable of seeing what their choices are going to do ten years down the road.  That is why they have parents who are supposed to set rules, limits, guidelines, ethics, etc.  I am not my child's friend -  I am their mother.  Sometimes that makes it very hard because I have to make the tough calls and say "NO".  I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of "unschooling".  I would like to see how these children fair when they are 20 years old.  My 20 year old goes out of state to a university and works two part-time jobs.  She is very responsible and reliable and I am not there to help her.  I do not feel that she would be where she is today if I had home schooled or "unschooled" her.  She is now one and a half years away from becoming a public school teacher.  Go figure! 

One student was on a strict curriculum with deadlines, expectations, goals, etc.  She had no trouble doing her school work but never overcame her social inadequacies even after four years.  Yes she was involved in outside activities while being home schooled but that did not take the place of learning how to socially interact on a daily basis.  While this student graduated with a 4.0 average, even her parents said they have a hard time getting her out of her shell and now are concerned how she will fair in college. 

 

I'd counter that this girl was likely an introvert and likely would not have been more outgoing and social even if she attended public school from the get-go.

 

How do I know this?  I'm an introvert and all the time I got notes on my report cards how I needed to be more social, to participate in more activities, and to speak out in class more.  Being an introvert is NORMAL, not abnormal.  Just because introverts are the minority in our society amongst the loud, vocal, partying extroverts doesn't mean that there is something wrong with us.

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:39 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: mrsjkl

I completely agree.  Who's to say that a public administrator can teach my child with the love and respect they deserve?  I know for a fact they wouldn't.  I gave birth to my children to teach them the ways of life the minute they wake up to sundown.  My children learn to deal with everyday life by being a part of it.  They're not stuck in a building, moving on to college, and then put into the world.  They experience the real world of everyday society and learn it from a young age and when the time comes that I cannot be there, they will have learned what they need to do to get by.  Homeschooling is a way for us to excell our children and not have to be stuck behind waiting for other students to catch up. Honestly homeschooling lets me teach my children the qualities they need when they are adults.   If God blessed me with my children, then obviously He qualified me to teach them!!

There is more to teaching than just "loving your children".  You need to be able to understand the brain development of your child, their learning style, tools to push your child to think beyond a book or a lesson, proper evaluation of what your child has learned, a means to verify that your assessment meets the needs of what society demands, the ability to listen to and evaluate ideas of others, problem-solving techniques that develop because of interactions with people who are not like you, cultural awareness that comes from working and playing for extended periods of time with people from different cultures and backgrounds.

 

You may not like society or agree with its values, but the truth of the matter is that your children will need to participate in this society.  Will they have enough tools, experiences, background knowledge to cope with the difficulties and challenges that they will face if all they know is their family?

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:39 am PST

Homeschooling Meets the Children's Needs

Quote From: klemauga

After watching the show, along with a great deal of personal experience, I have to ask all of you who choose to home school or un-school...who's needs are being met here??  In my experience, the decision to keep children at home and away from public education meets the needs of the parents who can't handle letting go ot their children in a a far greater capacity  than by the so called protection of their children.  Can an uneducated parent offer an equal opportunity for education than a trained and educated teacher can?  For all of you debaters, so if you have a Bachelors...even a Masters degree, wha did you major in?  Considering that our children learn essentially at least ten different subjects, did you major in all ten?  Is it better for you to teach your kids in all topics as oppossed to having one teacher for one subject who majored in that subject and has undergone extensive training in teaching that subject to children?  Yes, parents have love, that is our job.  We major in love and bonding even if we dropped out of school all together.  But love does not qualify us to educate our children.  We play a huge role in their success, but we need our teachers to truly give our kids all they deserve.  In my opinion, homeschoolers can't hanlde letting go of their kids, understanding that love does not end the moment they are away from us, and are simply serving an internal need to keep kids at home and as dependant and infant-like as possible for as long as is possible.  If you are so bored with your life then get a job...just let your kids get the education and experience they desereve.  If you truly put them first, you will let go!

Homeschooling meets the needs of the homeschooled child.

 

I have no problem letting go of my children and I  encourage them to do things independent of our family. A week at scout camp during the summer, recreational sports and sports camps and for my 16 year old college. Thanks to homeschooling my 16 year old was able to start college at 16 with a FULL SCHOLARSHIP.  I assure you parents do not homeschool for the most part because they can't bear to be away from their kids, they homeschool because it is the BEST educational choice for their child.

 

You assume that the public school teacher teaching science has a masters degree in science, how naive of you. Public School Teachers often wind up teaching classes they didn't major in. Also in Mississippi you only have to have a high school diploma to be a substitute teacher.

 
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November 25, 2006, 6:44 am PST

home school

I'm a 55 yo male that also hated school all the way thru high school. When I had children, they were home schooled for some of those years. They are well adjusted, went to college and have successful and financially secure careers.

When I went to school, I was a major day dreamer which made learning very difficult for me. I feel had I been home schooled, that I would have had a parent keep my attention better directed. I went to both Christian and public schools. I found in my experience that the socialization that I experienced was a lot of bulling, insults and negativity that I would have not received at home.

In a home school environment, my children had friends and other events that allowed for solicitation. I found in a public and private school environment that teachers had little or no control of what happened between children, and for me there were times of unspeakable cruelty.

I believe that a structural home school environment can and does work and I would do it all over again and again for my kids, and wish it had happened for me. I went to college later in life and became an honor role student in spite of it all.

 
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