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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 25, 2006, 7:47 am PST

After reading the messages...

As an educator, I think that I do a pretty good job educating my students, and obviously I think that public education is a viable, healthy learning environment for children.

 

I am, however, NOT against homeschooling. I am leary about the reasons that some posters here have given for homeschooling.  My issues lie with the motivation to homeschool.  If you think that you are qualified, capable, and are willing to devote the time and energy needed to educate your children (and it takes a lot of time and energy!) then by all means, teach your children where  and how you want to.  More power to you!

 

BUT...if you are motivated by fear of public schools, by fear of society, by personal negative past experiences, because you think the Bible tells you so (and for the record, I am a devout Christian), because you believe that children shouldn't have boundaries, because you feel that all teachers do is say "SIT DOWN! DO THIS! DO THAT!" then you really should reevaluate your motivations.

 

Just my opinion! 

 
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November 25, 2006, 7:49 am PST

So Many Differences

  I have been reading over some of the posts and have some comments on some and stuff to add as well.  I think it is true that people are generally easy to blame. That laziness factor one person wrote about definately happens, but I don't think you can't expect more out of the system that wants control over our children's lives for most of their waking hours. Don't get me wrong I am not blaming schools, but they are part of the equation. I know a lot of school teachers both at public and private schools and they all say the same thing, that they spend a huge chunk of their class time disciplining and getting the students in a frame of mind to pay attention and that very little of their lessons are being taught. I hear of frustration from these devoted people all the time. Do schools and teacher's get a bumb rap? Certainly a good portion of the time. Do they have a right to defend themselves? Of course. But amidst that I strongly feel there was too much misrepresentation on an hour long program for it's viewers to truly undersatnd the background for such a strong debate.

 

Parents and society are other parts of the equation. One post mentioned how some homeschooled children get put back into school and are behind in academics as well as social skills. What isn't mentioned is how far ahead they may have been in what the school hasn't dictated as testable material. Socially the children may have been wonderful, but didn't fit the stereotype of what the average student behavior is. I don't know the people this post was referring to, but I do know that homeschoolers learn generally the same material and then some as children in institutional school systems, but it may not be at the same time. Some material may be learned long before their schooled peers and other stuff at a later time. If a parent decides that going back in the system is for them they should check with their school system ahead of time to be prepared for the difference. The socialization question always comes up where homeschoolers are involved. The thing is that there is a difference between socializing which is what people want our children to be able to do in school and having good social skills. I see kids of varying education backgrounds all the time, but why does society feel the need to determine which group of children are deficiant in social skills, which by one definition is to be able to get along well with one another for their common welfare. Not to nit pick, but the glares and the pecking order in our schools corridors and Phys. Ed. line ups don't seem too socially enabling of common welfare.

 

 On the show yesterday a school teacher went on about schools being more diversified than what a homeschooled child could encounter. I found that odd as in a school you spend 12 plus years with the same children that live in the general vicinity of where the school is located. Homeschoolers have no boundaries as to what, when or where they learn. That seems way more diversified to me. You may have guessed I am a homeschool parent. I respect all choices in education and would love the same respect which my family for the most part has received. I nurtured and educated my oldest son at home from second through eighth grade largely from a difference in philosophy I had with the school he was in and from him having a lot of illnesses triggered from a huge allergy to the cleaning products used in school to mention one which kept him sick at home a lot anyway. He was mostly unschooled the four years prior to deciding HE wanted to go back in the school system. We spent years learning side by side based mostly on interest. I insisted on some regular curriculum such as math. After the decision was made we met with the guidance counselors at our high school to sign up for courses. I handed them a couple of pieces of paper with my opnion of where I felt he was at as I only graded his math work. They spoke with him all of three minutes and said " stick him in honors classes".  Think about it, aren't we as parents sort of like guidance counselors. We have experience and hopefully wisdom behind us to guide our children to the best outcome for their personal lives. Each child different and unique and in need of our love and nurturing to blossom into wonderful adults. Education is the fore-front of our children's upbringing alongside love and respect. I suppose that is why it is called the formative years. I love, nurture, and homeschool my children, three of which are still at home.  We are realistic of who we are, what our goals are, and how to get there.  Our choices are not for everyone , but they work for us.                 

 

I think the larger debate is not school choices , but parenting choices. So many children are emotionally neglected even by well meaning parents living in this fast paced world. We are a large and truly diverse nation. Every house different, every school, and every teacher. One size does not fit all, but if we could truly meet the definition of social skills and get along well to meet the common welfare for our countries children.                           

 

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November 25, 2006, 7:52 am PST

some information for you

Quote From: wickiepoo

I never heard of unschooling before, but home schooling can be a good thing. In home schooling the parent teaches the child using a curriculum provided by a home school program. The kids may work at their own pace but they have to do homework and take exams just like regular school. These tests are evaluated by the home school people  and they make the decision whether the child has earned a promotion to the next grade level. Home schooling is also a viable alternative for those children with illnesses or defects who cannot and should not be mainstreamed in public school. A child with Asperger's syndrome, for instance, may learn better in a quiet, private setting instead of with other children, and will get more personal one on one attention.

 

For those who do not want to put their children in public school or home school them, try a private Christian school.  The ABEKA system many of these schools use is vastly superior to the curriculum used in public school, and the children still have the chance to do school things and interact with other children and take part in programs, etc.

 

This unschooling thing sounds weird and like an excuse not to make the child to to school. That will get the parent put in jail in Tennessee and Florida. Dr. Phil is correct. Children do not have the ability to make their own decisions and predict the outcome. They have to be taught. Morals and family values, the difference between right and wrong, their faith in God should come from home, but the education and development of their minds, ability to socially interact with others and teamwork, sportsmanship, these things generally take place more in school.

 

Going to school can be dangerous these days, especially with gangs and drugs, etc. On the other hand, while there have been shootings and violence in schools, it doesn't happen everywhere or everyday. People have focused in on the minority situation and panicked over it.

 

I am in favor of the school system. My parents were teachers, my grandmother was a professor and my sister is a teacher. My father was a band director and coached JV basketball. Actually, even in retirement he is still coaching basketball. That the quality of education has declined is tragic, and perhaps the system needs to be reworked, but it's still a good system if you put good qualified teachers in and give them back their power. Yes, folks, I mean discipline. The day they took paddling out of the mix was the day they signed the death warrant of the school system. Teachers cannot teach adequately if the children can act out and know there's nothing the teacher can do about it.

In regards to home schooling, a parent may teach the  child.   In many families of home learners the children teach themselves a high percentage of skills, with the parents standing by to assist when wanted or needed.  Surprisingly, (to the general public only) children do learn very well by guiding themselves. I've personally stepped in only a few times to sharpen some skills but this is only when my child expresses a frustration of not acquiring the skill themselves. Working without timelines for development would eliminate so many learning challenges found in schools.   While attending a field trip last week, my children were tossing out answers and asking impressive (tour leaders description, not mine) questions.  I had no idea where the two younger kids had picked up all the information but they had on their own. 
Home schooling is an umbrella term. Under that umbrella you will find;
-School at Home
-Eclectic
-Child Led
-Unschooling
It would be helpful, for the purpose of this discussion if people who do not home school to make an attempt to research a bit before making statements as to what it is. 
 

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November 25, 2006, 7:54 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: steiwhleur

I graduated from an upper-middle class high school in 1990.  I thought I had learned what needed to be learned so that I could go on to college.  WRONG!  In college I had to pay for REMEDIAL math classes!!! I was so angry.  But then I looked around at who was in my remedial class and they were all students from North Hills High School!!  I wanted to bill the high school for my remedial classes, but my parents said I should just drop it.  I wish I had sent the high school a bill.  Maybe it would have caused them to take another look at their sub-par cirriculum!!

 

That was all hapening 16 years ago!  I now live in New Mexico and the schools here are horrific.  Graduates can't read, write, do math, spell....nothing!  My niece is in the 9th grade and probably reads on a 4th grade level.  She can't spell correctly if her life depended on it...and it does.  No one wants to hire someone too stupid to spell or add or divide correctly.  And her speaking is just as bad.  She sounds like a dullard.  This will haunt her for the rest of her life.  People will assume she's an idiot, not the kind, sweet, beautiful girl that she has become.

 

New Mexico ranks 43rd out of 50 for our inadequate schooling, yet our govenor refuses to address it.  Yes he's trying to throw money at the problem, but we need to start requiring more from the teachers and principals before we can make such demands on our children.  New Mexico also has a "don't ask" policy about if a child is an illegal or an American citizen.  Therefore our schools are flooded with illegals who only speak Spanish.  This adds to the teachers' burden---the teachers must learn and teach Spanish to "accomodate" these illegals.  No wonder we rank so low!!  New Mexico is like a 3rd world country in many ways.

 

Home schooling sounds like the way to go so long as the parents meet all the required credentials and they are diligent about teaching at home.  Home schooled kids should have some kind of network so that they can be around like-aged kids.  That way they can learn the socialization skills needed out in the real world.

 

For our retirement we are looking to go to the mountains of Montana -- maybe we'll find some smart people like us up there!!

I agree that it really depends on where you go to school that determines the level of schooling you receive. I chose to homeschool my children and have had wonderful results.

 

We do have extensive networks. My children attend their art , pe, and zoo classes through our group. They have parties, field trips, and friends just like regular school. 

 

My children are around kids their own age alot, but that is not what prepares them for the real world. The real world requires you to be able to interact with many different ages & backgrounds. I have not been in a group with only people my age since I graduated school.

 

My sister & brother were homeschooled and they are active and contributing members of society. My brother was pulled out of public school when we realized he couldn't receive the one-on-one teaching that he needed (it wouldn't have been fair to the other students in the class). He was already 2 grades behind at that time. He flourished in home school with the one-on-one teaching that he desperately needed. He graduated on time at (or above) grade level.

 

There can be many advantages to homeschooling, but it is not for everyone. It is the best choice for my children and for me. 

 

 

 
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November 25, 2006, 8:00 am PST

I agree

Quote From: alasandra2003

In my state homeschoolers do not have to be tested. The public schools have NO involvement with homeschoolers and frankly I like it that way.

 

You assume that they need to be tested  every 9 weeks to get into college but that simply isn't true.

 

Everyone public schoolers, private schoolers and home schoolers alike have to take college entrance exams usually the ACT or SAT. Colleges look at the scores you make on these exams to decide if you are eligible to attend their college. I keep records of my children's school work and make transcripts.

 

My eldest son took the ACT when he was 15 scored a 28 which made him eligible for early admission to college with a FULL SCHOLARSHIP, and the college had no problem accepting his transcript made by ME.  He started college at 16. He is in his second year of college and has made the Dean's List. Homeschoolers have no problems getting into college. 

 We called alll the colleges in the area, when my child finished the 8th grade, to see what she would have to do to get into that school.
All of them just required ACT/SAT scores and a transcript with classes the school wanted to see on them. One college even has a "homeschooled students" link on their website, under admissions which says the same thing I was told on the phone:

  • An important feature for homeschooled students is access to personal attention in academics. This is made possible by Columbia College's student-to-faculty ratio of 14:1, the Math and Writing Centers, and many other on-campus student services.
  • Columbia College generally grants admission to homeschooled applicants with an ACT, SAT or GED score at a minimum 50th percentile.
  • Homeschooled students' academic records should reflect a college bound curriculum with a minimum of four units of English, three units of math (two years of algebra and one year of geometry), two units of natural science, and two units of social studies. Columbia College does accept some CLEP and Online Course credit.
  • Admitted applicants in their final year of homeschooling who score a 25 or higher on the ACT or 1140 or higher on the SAT are invited to participate in one of our Scholarship Days on December 3, 2005 or February 5, 2006. Based on an essay, an interview, and a resume of activities and academics,  Columbia College awards five Columbia College Scholarships (full tuition, room and board) and five Presidential Scholarships (full tuition).
  • Other merit-based awards and scholarships are also available. Awardees in recent years have included homeschooled students. Please send resume of activities to be considered for additional scholarships and awards.
  • Additional financial aid is available based upon demonstration of need in the form of grants and loans by completion of the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FASFA). 




 
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November 25, 2006, 8:03 am PST

Training

klemauga said: Can an uneducated parent offer an equal opportunity for education than a trained and educated teacher can? For all of you debaters, so if you have a Bachelors...even a Masters degree, wha did you major in?  Considering that our children learn essentially at least ten different subjects, did you major in all ten?  Is it better for you to teach your kids in all topics as oppossed to having one teacher for one subject who majored in that subject and has undergone extensive training in teaching that subject to children? 

 

Ummm....last time I checked, elementary school teachers are not trained in all ten subjects either.  Also, many teachers don't major in the subject they teach. 

 

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November 25, 2006, 8:10 am PST

This from a Canadian teacher?

Quote From: canadianteach

There is more to teaching than just "loving your children".  You need to be able to understand the brain development of your child, their learning style, tools to push your child to think beyond a book or a lesson, proper evaluation of what your child has learned, a means to verify that your assessment meets the needs of what society demands, the ability to listen to and evaluate ideas of others, problem-solving techniques that develop because of interactions with people who are not like you, cultural awareness that comes from working and playing for extended periods of time with people from different cultures and backgrounds.

 

You may not like society or agree with its values, but the truth of the matter is that your children will need to participate in this society.  Will they have enough tools, experiences, background knowledge to cope with the difficulties and challenges that they will face if all they know is their family?

Being a Canadian myself, and parent in a home learning family, I am surprised by your lack of education on home schooling.  Perhaps you live in Quebec, which is our least friendly home learning province. 
Everything you mentioned takes place in my children's home learning environment.  Our children participate in 'this society' every single day.  Why do you feel that our children lack the opportunity to deal with challenges and conflict?  Our children function in not only a culturally diverse social group but also in terms of economics.  I doubt in many of the children in the catchment school for my affluent area meet and make friends with children whose parents make a tenth or less of what their own family income is. Our public schools, for the most part, group children due to addresses.  In my neighbourhood I've yet to meet anyone that makes $25k per year. 
Are you aware that some parents to belong to Distance Schools and have their children evaluated?  In BC there are ways for even unschoolers to do this.  In exchange for either weekly or quarterly reporting, we are also given up to $1000 per child for resources/classes. 
My children use those funds to participate in classes where they  listen to and interact with others and use problem solving techniques.  They have formed deep relationships with others and at times have spent five years in the same class with a few of their friends. Some of those friends may be 2 years younger or 2 years older.  They far from know 'only their family' and for you to make that statement makes you ignorant to what home schooling actually is. 
Our children may not all have agendas or be classrooms where the windows are patterned with 25 turkeys near Thanksgiving or 25 snowmen near Christmas but they are very skilled at finding what they need to be well functioning people in their daily lives.
My children were just assessed by choice.  Not one of them had to endure me teaching to a test or acquiring a certain set of information on a prescribed topic.  Yet all of them are doing very, very well in accordance to the standards set in our province.  This comes from an ecletic style of home learning where there are no teachers in the home. 

Michelle


 
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November 25, 2006, 8:11 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: canadianteach

There is more to teaching than just "loving your children".  You need to be able to understand the brain development of your child, their learning style, tools to push your child to think beyond a book or a lesson, proper evaluation of what your child has learned, a means to verify that your assessment meets the needs of what society demands, the ability to listen to and evaluate ideas of others, problem-solving techniques that develop because of interactions with people who are not like you, cultural awareness that comes from working and playing for extended periods of time with people from different cultures and backgrounds.

 

You may not like society or agree with its values, but the truth of the matter is that your children will need to participate in this society.  Will they have enough tools, experiences, background knowledge to cope with the difficulties and challenges that they will face if all they know is their family?

So, in other words, you need to be a child psychologist to be a parent? I mean, if you haven't researched the developmental stages and how a child's brain works, how can you teach them anything? You might as well send them to a trained professional who knows better.

 

I don't mean to start anything here but think about it. If we are qualified enough as parents to change their diapers, potty train them, feed them, and fulfill their needs, then why at 5 years old are we suddenly not fit to teach them. If you want to find out about something, you read or consult with those who have more experience. There are ways to find out and most homeschoolers aren't afraid to admit that they don't have all the answers. When in doubt, look it up. I have learned more about history through teaching my six year old daughter than I learned in all my schooling. I always did fine in school and I knew what to do for the test but there was no continuity and none of it stuck in my brain. The minute the test was over, so was all the information.

 

People are under the misconception that homeschoolers cannot deal with society. Do you think by getting beaten up everyday that that is the only way you will learn to deal with aggressive people? No, it may only make you more aggressive. We learn things when confronted with it and if given a good home life and values at home, kids will hopefully make the right choices. "Society" is not like a classroom and being forced to sit for hours a day at 6 years old will not make you a model citizen. Do you think that homeschoolers don't face challenges? Why are the only challenges in school according to you?

 
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November 25, 2006, 8:11 am PST

schooling my children

     

             I was extremely glad to see this show air.Since the birth of my oldest in 2003,this has been on my mind.I graduated in 1998 from my local High School.While it may have not been the best school in the country,I feel it was good for me.I had the option to go to another school with the IB program but due to my extracurricular activities I chose not to. There was never any violence other than the occasional fight. Now,8 years later, the same high school is dealing with multiple suicides among the lower class girls.Christian Homeschooling has been on my mind,However I do feel my children may not get the best socialization with this.Iam afraid they may never learn a healthy approach to conflict resolution if I am the facilitator to ALL of thier relationshps.Unschooling is definately NOT an option for my family , Due to the fact that we strongly believe in rules and discipline. I was not even aware of unschooling,if there are any other options other than traditional(public or private),homeschooling,or unschooling,I would love to hear them

 

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November 25, 2006, 8:14 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: canadianteach

There is more to teaching than just "loving your children".  You need to be able to understand the brain development of your child, their learning style, tools to push your child to think beyond a book or a lesson, proper evaluation of what your child has learned, a means to verify that your assessment meets the needs of what society demands, the ability to listen to and evaluate ideas of others, problem-solving techniques that develop because of interactions with people who are not like you, cultural awareness that comes from working and playing for extended periods of time with people from different cultures and backgrounds.

 

You may not like society or agree with its values, but the truth of the matter is that your children will need to participate in this society.  Will they have enough tools, experiences, background knowledge to cope with the difficulties and challenges that they will face if all they know is their family?

I agree that it is way more than just "loving your children". But it was that 'love' that lead me to deeply investigate homeschooling and to spend hour after hour studying on what meets each of my children's learningstyles. My children take standardized testing, not because my state requires it (it doesn't) but because I want to know how my child is doing. And they are doing quite well.

 

My children have interactions beyond what can be gained in a classroom day after day with the same 20 kids.  A few weeks ago they spent time at the Veterans center meeting and speaking to many 70 and 80 year old veterans. They are with me when I shop. They converse and interact with the salespeople (not just stand behind momma).  They are with me during all my 'errands', and they enjoy meeting new people and 'interacting' with them. Among my childrens' friends are African-American, Polish, Mexican, Mexican-American, Cambodian, Chinese, & many others.

 

My children are already participating in this society. They don't need 13 years in a brick building to learn how to 'cope' with life. They are living it right now. 

 

 

 

 

   

 
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