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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 26, 2006, 7:49 am PST

Taking back our public schools

I have a few thoughts on what I think it will take to improve our country's public school system. I have more than 40 years of combined experience as a public school student, parent, and teacher. I believe in school choice and am committed to doing what I can to help parents make good decisions about their child's education. The problem is that too often the local public school system has been allowed to remove itself as a viable choice for parents.

 

What can we as parents and teachers do to change this?

 

Please note, I believe strongly that most public schools are doing their best. I just think we can do better!

 

More later...

 
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November 26, 2006, 7:50 am PST

I should clear it up a little...

Quote From: julie1418

Okay, before the homeschoolers jump all over you, I am going to give you my perspective of the REAL DEAL. I have a B.S. in English Education and a M Ed in Educational Leadership. I taught for about seven years in some pretty tough schools. I was an Assistant Principal for a few years.

 

While I completely understand your point of view, I do not agree with you completely. Some of the theoretical coursework you are studying, you will barely use. It may be useful information, and no knowledge is ever wasted, but I think once you start teaching you will find some of it to be impractical. Furthermore, teacher training is focused on teaching to a relatively large group. One on one learning is different as you don't have to simultaneously cater to different disabilities, learning styles, etc.

 

I do share your concern that nobody should portray homeschooling as an "any parent can do it" endeavor. My concern reading some of these posts and listening to homeschool advocates is that there is very little concrete information being given about the commitment that is required. It seems like there is a lot of defense of the right to choose and talk about success stories, but not much practical information for anyone considering homeschooling. Hopefully, that is just the nature of a debate board.

 

I wish you much luck as you pursue your degree. Kudos to you for considering Special Education. Those children truly need teachers with enormous patience, compassion, and PASSION.

I seem to have left out the fact that I am not fresh off the teacher boat with no experience.  I currently work with young children in  pre-k.  I use many of the techniques I have learned in school on a daily basis, and believe it or not...they work!  As I read the responses to what I've written, I can't help but feel that people assume I am against home schooling, I'm really not.  I just feel that before making such a big decision about they best way to educate children, people  should educate themselves.  I realize that many home school parents are educated and I really encourage that, but too many don't have the proper credentials.  I also believe that a parent is the most important tool when it comes to education.  A teacher can drill something until s/he's blue in the face, but if there is a lack of parental support, that thing goes in one ear and out of the other.  I encourage parent's to teach at home, because children learn from everything around them.  Look, I love children, you know as well as I do that we don't go into teaching for the money!  I just wanted to alert some people that might think they can home school without any education that teaching is  not as easy as it looks.  Any person that has studied education will at least agree to that.

 
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November 26, 2006, 7:56 am PST

I'll ask again...

No one seems to be asnwering my questions, so I'll ask again.

What do you think it means to be "educated?"

What IS a well rounded education?

Is it having knowledge in subjects like science, math, english, history, and art? Or could it mean having knowledge in business studies, psych., computer studies, and Chinese?

Does one need an "education" to be smart? To "make it" in life?

Is there a difference between education and schooling?
 
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November 26, 2006, 8:13 am PST

homeschool trust

 Well I was disappointed as I watched the show.  I know we cannot all agree on every issue.  I home school my children beacuse that is what God has called me to do.  I think as a Christian I trust God to give me everything I need to do what I have to for my kids.  There were many people in the Bible not necessarily equipped for what God called them to but with Him they succeeded.  I'm sure this will be very foreign to those who do not have faith but it is how I live my life and our family is better for it. 
I know I have more time for my child than a teacher of 20-30 children.  I do not have the creditials of a teacher but I do have access to great resources that facilitate that.  I also know my children intimately and know how to teach them better than a teacher that cannot afford to teach them individually.  Yes, I can hear the opposition to that as well.  My children have many opportunities to be in a group setting where they have to listen to another authority and work in a group dynamic.
In Alberta the majority of post sceondary schools gladly accept home educated children so home schooling does not exempt them from further education.  I'm sorry that the focus was on a form or radical home schooling.  The reason they are radical is that it is not what the majority of us do.  I don't disagree with unschooling.  I just know I'm not capable of it.  I need some structure. 
So I'm very frustrated that the view presented was very negative.  I think if you sat down and did a list of pros and cons you would see the environment in a school is not the best place for our kids.

 
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November 26, 2006, 8:19 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

A few posted have quoted the research done by Lawrence Rudner and used it to compare public schools to homeschooling. I read the research report, and here are Rudner's own words. The bolds are mine.

 

These comparisons between home school students and students nationwide must be interpreted with a great deal of caution. This was not a controlled experiment. Students were not randomly assigned public, private or home schools. As a result, the reported achievement differences between groups do not control for background differences in the home school and general United States population and, more importantly, cannot be attributed to the type of school a child attends. This study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools. It should not be cited as evidence that our public schools are failing. It does not indicate that children will perform better academically if they are home schooled. The design of this study and the data do not warrant such claims. All the comparisons of home school students with the general population and with the private school population in this report fail to consider a myriad of differences between home school and public school students. We have no information as to what the achievement levels of home school students would be had they been enrolled in public or private schools. This study simply shows that those parents choosing to make a commitment to home schooling are able to provide a very successful academic environment.

 

I do not deny that some, perhaps many, homeschooling parents do a wonderful job educating their children. I do not agree with invalid comparisons.  

This study simply shows that those parents choosing to make a commitment to home schooling are able to provide a very successful academic environment.

 

This was the point that I was trying to make, that homeschooling parents are able to provide a very successful academic environment. I was replying to a post from a Bach of Education Major demanding that all homeschooling parents have a teachers certificate and accusing them of cheating their children and holding them hostages.

 

I don't advocate homeschooling for everyone. It was the BEST choice for my children. Public or private schools may be better for other students especially if their parents aren't willing to make the commitment that homeschooling requires.

 
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November 26, 2006, 8:28 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: sgr123

You are so right.  My husband had a woodshop teacher for algebra and I had a football coach for the same subject. 

I remember when I was in high school, the history teacher in my friends class got sick, so they got the football coach to fill in and he was clueless.  Since I was in an honors history class he asked me to help him with his lesson plans.
 
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November 26, 2006, 8:28 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: benraf

Yes, there are some good (professional) teachers, yes, there were some great professional teachers - I was lucky enough to have had some, but that was before schools (especially public schools) quit hiring real academics with advanced degrees to teach.  OK, that acknowledged, as to future teachers - I doubt it!  (or at least they are becoming fewer and farther between) mainly because you are majoring in "education/crowd control" instead of a partcular subject in depth.

 

Is your curriculum anything like my forays into that field?  In a teachers' ed program, I was "taught" to run a mimeo machine, in another, (an M.A.) it was all feel good discussions - this, from two different schools.  I ran, horrified at the lack of rigor, back to real academics.  Those standardized tests - I took them to get into the programs - were also a joke - compare them to the GRE's, GMATs, or LCAT's and MCAT's.  I would fail an 8th grader if they couldn't pass them.  These "ed programs" required - as in many states, only a C+ average to get in, while other grad programs require A's and B's.

 

Today, I teach at the university.  I deal daily with the products of many public and private school systems.  While privately schooled students tend to be a bit better at most academic skills, I have to re-teach my students often. They can't have discussions on many subjects because they don't have the knowledge required to have that discussion - this is general knowledge of history and science.  They can't read an assignment to get that knowledge-anything but the  pre-digested reading textbooks stymies them.  They don't know how to take notes from a lecture. Many can't write a paper due to bad grammar, but worse, they don't know how to organize an essay to defend an opinion, and many claim they have no opinion to defend.

 

Worse yet, they never exhibit any intellectual curiosity; when they have a question about something assigned, they don't bother to look it up, they don't email me, they don't even use a dictionary or wiki, they don't read newspapers.  These products of professional teachers are going to make damned poor citizens.

  

Among my colleagues, we often joke about how we know the ed majors - they're the ones who ask questions like "are we responsible for that on the test" or "how many sources do I have to have on my paper."  It seems somewhere that ed majors became exclusively concerned with form but forgot substance.  You are now like those hosts who set a beautiful table, with very expensive china, the finest crystal, a  multitude of silverware, and then serve the most mediocre food - you've forgotten what the purpose of serving a meal is. 

 

Oh, my children are  homeschooled.

 

 

I find your assessment a bit harsh, but not without merit. I agree that many education courses are worthless.  My major was English Education, and I was often a bit taken aback by some of the Elementary Education majors. Some were fantastic, but there was definitely an almost simplistic mentality among others.

 

Do you ever question why that is? Why Education as a field of study does not attract the best and the brightest? Someone else had posted that Elementary Education majors are among the lowest SAT scores entering college. Why WOULD someone with high SAT scores choose Education as a field of study and as a career path? The great pay? The respect? A few people will have such a driving passion for teaching that they will choose it, but I think the majority of students who see  limitless prospects for their future will choose a career with more money, respect, and opportunity for advancement.

 

The bottom line is we will for the foreseeable future need public schools. Don't you think we have a responsibility to attract some of the best and brightest to the profession? As citizens, don't we have a responsibility, whether our children are in the public schools or not, to CARE that the people charged with educating children are competent, qualified, and respected?

 
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November 26, 2006, 8:32 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: beavcadia

I seem to have left out the fact that I am not fresh off the teacher boat with no experience.  I currently work with young children in  pre-k.  I use many of the techniques I have learned in school on a daily basis, and believe it or not...they work!  As I read the responses to what I've written, I can't help but feel that people assume I am against home schooling, I'm really not.  I just feel that before making such a big decision about they best way to educate children, people  should educate themselves.  I realize that many home school parents are educated and I really encourage that, but too many don't have the proper credentials.  I also believe that a parent is the most important tool when it comes to education.  A teacher can drill something until s/he's blue in the face, but if there is a lack of parental support, that thing goes in one ear and out of the other.  I encourage parent's to teach at home, because children learn from everything around them.  Look, I love children, you know as well as I do that we don't go into teaching for the money!  I just wanted to alert some people that might think they can home school without any education that teaching is  not as easy as it looks.  Any person that has studied education will at least agree to that.

Since I have been a substitute teacher  in the local public schools I'll add this homeschooling is far easier then teaching in the public schools.

 

For one thing homeschooling parents don't have to deal with the lack of parental support. :>)

 
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November 26, 2006, 8:44 am PST

How to Get Started Homeschooling

Quote From: clbroy

We decided to start homeschooling, we applied to our school district that has a study at home program but I would like to know how to homeschool other than using the school district. We live in Contra Costa County, CA. We are in the Mt Diablo School District. Any help would be appreciated.

First you need to find out what the homeschooling laws are for your state, each state has different laws.

This website should help you with the homeschooling laws for CA.

http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp?State=CA

 

Then find a support group, talk to the homeschooling parents, read homeschooling books and decide which method and curriculum will work best for your child.

This site offers religious as well as secular textbooks http://www.accountwizard.com/clients/shop.asp?web=cca-store

 

Also Why Homeschool offers lots of useful info

http://whyhomeschool.blogspot.com/

 

as well as hosting a Carnival of Homeschooling, where homeschooling bloggers share their ideas.

 

 
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November 26, 2006, 8:52 am PST

Teaching as a Science

I have been watching the teaching skills comments come up in several posts and would like to make a brief observation about this.

 

Everything we do in life is because we are self-motivated to do it - we WANT to do it. This seems like an unlikely statement when you first read it, but if you examine it carefully, it is indeed true. Dr. Phil calls it a "payoff" and regardless of whether our motives are judged as good or bad, we always have a motive whether it resides in our conscious or unconscious mind. 

 

If we find a topic interesting, our interest motivates us to pursue it further. When being instructed under whatever method, if a particular topic is not interesting to a student, successful teaching demands a motivating influence be uncovered. This is often done with grades. It could also come in the form of rewards such as increased interactive attention from the "teacher", praise, or other material or activity related rewards. It could also come in a punitive action such as activity curtailment, withdrawal of approval, etc.

 

Isn't the science of teaching all about uncovering and discovering what the child wants so that this can be used to manipulate the child to learn what you want them to? This is not seen as a bad thing because the stance is understood, if also unspoken, that the means justifies the end. A responsible parent should already have read up on developmental stages of children. I would say this was what probably started my whole journey of questioning our education system to begin with.

 

If a subject is boring, or the teacher teaching it, then the self-motivation must be brought about through another avenue than the actual satisfaction of curiosity sated from learning about the subject in question.

 

BUT...in a vast majority of our schools it is simply impossible to allow such a thing to happen - each student learning and studying what actually interests them. I understand and appreciate this fact. To me it seems comparable to sticking your hand in a boiling pot of oil and then having the experts working out how to ease the pain, scarring, coming up with ways to enhance the healing system. All of these things being unnecessary if one simply didn't stick their hand in the post in the first place.

 

The one thing that perpetuates most of the beliefs about the benefits of public school and it's current curriculum, is that children will never desire to learn certain subjects that have attracted the labels of boring or not interesting (while always remaining a necessity). This is often based on our own experiences of being force fed a subject when the time was not right for us or when our lack of interest was so severe that our resentment of the other methods used to garner our agreement to learn the subject, has left a bad taste in our mouth for the subject itself.

 

The world is actually a very fascinating place and children know this. Each child is an adult in the making and we all know as adults that we have different interests and pursuits and if we didn't, how would all that needs to be done in the world, get done? When deciding to homeschool, this is the one thing that almost undid my decision. Would my children actually be interested to learn about the things that bore me stiff, yet are things of benefit to know in order to live a successful life? Yes, they really do want to learn these things. Each at their pace and in within their own time frame, but with the self-motivation that comes from genuine interest. When it comes to learning there is no other motivator in existence that matches the success rate of this motivator (though the experts keep looking).

 

Education is very important, this any intelligent person will agree upon. Do teachers have childrens best interests at heart? I believe quite a lot of them do. I homeschool because compared to what the schools can currently offer my children, I know I can do a better job of educating my children and preparing them for the world - which they already live in. A rich environment is a given. You must surround your children with the situations (to an appropriate degree) they will face as adults. They will not learn to read without books - obviously. If you place them in situations where it becomes obvious to them that certain knowledge or skills would enhance the experience, they will then see a need to learn the information, or skills. It is so simple it is easily dismissed. Children are hugely underestimated by our society.

 

If the school systems radically changed, I would examine the new structures and make a new decision at that time, as flexibility is a requirement for success in this new world we are living in.

 
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