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Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 26, 2006, 9:02 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jessicaleola

I will graduate with a Bach. Degree in Education with a minor in special education.  I am so glad to see other college students reply.  It is so true that we are trained professionals.  All the classes and writing and research.  We are not allowed to use any old system to teach, it needs to be research based and tested.  There is so much students are missing out on, the three R's, the socialization, the learning of right and wrong, and learning to accept others as they are, even if morals and values do not match.  I work with students at times that seem so intellectually bright, come from great homes and have a learning disability that the parents have no ideas where to start.  I also see the SES students who try to survive in our systems, and do so through our help.  I agree, parents shold take a few courses in teaching before making rash choices that my affect their children's lives. 
Constructivist math and other fads pushed by the NCTM  are not proven, research-based curriculum (at least not statistically significant) and yet, teachers all over the country are being forced to teach it - even if they don't like/understand it - because the administrators tell them to.

The three Rs aren't being taught well in our schools when crappy curriculum choices are made in a vacuum, sometimes by people who have financial (not educational) reasons for making said decisions.

Socialization is a joke.  Don't you remember?  "Stop talking in class, you come to school to learn, not to socialize."  Socialization in elementary school involves basically being sheeple - being told when and how often one can use the bathroom (do you have to ask your boss if you can use the bathroom?).   The 15 minutes our elementary students get on the playground every day are somehow superior to the social groups home educated children receive?  My son attended public schools until 6th grade - when his heroin-using teacher left the classroom and refused to let the students use the bathroom, he wet his pants because she would (as we found out later) periodically wander from her classroom and none of the students would know where she was at.   The teasing he endured on the bus and the backpedaling and runaround from school officials was enough to make your head spin.  Yes, I agree - you must be right that this kind of social experience in a group of 30 peers can only be good for him in the future.  Not all of what happens in public school is positive, it is naive to assert or think that.  The same can be said of all home educators, or all truck drivers, or all of any one group of people. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Learning to accept others as they are, regardless of backgrounds?  When they are only exposed to a group of 20-30 children exactly their age, year after year?  Hardly an effective means of socialization.  My home school co-op group hosts teen dances, proms, outings, activities, etc. which include teens from age 13-18.  We have sports teams, music lessons, group choir that performs in nursing homes - where the kids actually interact with the elderly.  Home educated children are NOT missing out on any socialization unless their families have them holed up in a shack in the mountains and never expose them to the real world.  And let's face it, parents like those can be found both in and out of the public school system...

For the record, most home educators I know did extensive research before making the decision.  It is aggravating to hear it keep coming up, over and over again, how no parent should just be able to blindly home educate their children.  That is not a realistic portrayal of the majority of home educators any more than the heroin-using and sexually-abusive teachers are the norm for public schools.
 
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November 26, 2006, 9:15 am PST

unschooling is legal

Quote From: cmkennedy124

 

I am NOT a lawyer but, from what I gathered after I went to hslda.org to look up ALL 50 state laws on home schooling. The ONLY states were this unschooling family might have a legal right to home school like this (no specific courses taught, testing, qualifications, approval, and/or record keeping needed) are: Alabama, Alaska, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, New Jersey, Oklahoma, and Texas. 

Unless this family lives in one of these states....how can they legally be home schooling their kids. Again, I am not sure what state they live in.  

Whyat do you think unschoolers do that is unlawful? 

 

Although I have unschooled in one of the states you listed, I now legally unschool in another state.   I certainly am no expert on all 50 states, but I know the regulations in the states where I have lived. 

 

I think that you either don't understand the law, or don't understand unschooling. 

 
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November 26, 2006, 9:17 am PST

Homeschololing Mom

I have been homeschooling for over 9 years.  My older son did attend public schools till about 4th grade.  We detected there was a problem because he was working 2 years behind his actual grade level and was having really bad asthma.  I let this rock on long enough and when I asked for help the door was shut on my face.  I kept asking why is he working so far behind and what is wrong?  They kept basically telling me he was lazy and did not want to do the work.  Oh, ok you don't want to help me and so I pulled him out put him in a Christian Private School to no avail.  I am wondering what is going on.  So we decided to homeschool.  After his situation went on for years he was just tooo far behind for me to help.  At age 16, we put our son in tech school for GED.  It took 4 years to complete. 

 

After all the fuss with the public school system, we decided to homeschool our other two boys from the start.  Last year, our ten yr old was still struggling to read and write and the same signs our oldest had he was having.  So I talked to our doctor and he said it could be a learning disability.  A friend of ours who substituted for the same public school are oldest son went to told me she thought he was "DYSLEXIC".  I was horrified.  What is dyslexia and how does it affect learning.  The school never told me anything about it.  Well I took our youngest son to a child psychologist and had him tested.  Sure enough he had "DYSLEXIA".

 

Now it all came to me that 's what was wrong with my oldest son and why even NOW he struggles.  So I homeschool my boys, they are making good progress I am able to buy the materials appropriated for their learning needs and have lots of support from other homeschoolers like us. 

 

My boys are very social with other children.  My youngest races a go kart and plans to be a NASCAR driver.  He also watches his dad to work on motors for his go kart so that he can learn how.   My middle son who is age 11 works on computers.  He works for a friend of ours who has his own computer shop.  Of course, mom helps out at times but for the most part he does the work.  We have a customers computer at my house now repairing it.  They both have a great future ahead of them. 

 

We do all the right subjects and more to boost their dyslexia and the one on one is great for them.  There are homeschool groups you can join to be a part of groups and we also socialize with kids that are not homeschooled so they know how the two groups work.  My kids are very accepting of others and not sheltered and like to interact. 

 

To end this, I wonder to this day what would have happened it I had let my younger two sons attend public schools???  I am proud of what I do and take much pride in their education.  Yes, I am a stay-at-home mom which we live on one income and it is a struggle so we sacrifice.  To me, it's the best sacrifice I have ever made or ever will make for MY BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Homeschooling Mom

 

 
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November 26, 2006, 9:22 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: roundandround

No one seems to be asnwering my questions, so I'll ask again.

What do you think it means to be "educated?"

What IS a well rounded education?

Is it having knowledge in subjects like science, math, english, history, and art? Or could it mean having knowledge in business studies, psych., computer studies, and Chinese?

Does one need an "education" to be smart? To "make it" in life?

Is there a difference between education and schooling?

These are difficult questions and that may explain why you didn't get a response.

 

I think educated means to be have knowledge and understanding about a subject.

 

Well rounded education would include a wide variety of subjects.  Any of the ones you listed would be well rounded in my book.

 

No, education doesn't make someone smart.  I'm not sure what you mean by "make it" in life, but you pretty much have to be educated in some areas to simply live.

 

Yes, schooling is not the same as education.  I would consider that schooling is an attempt to educate.

 
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November 26, 2006, 9:27 am PST

I will answer your Question!

Quote From: purplepenny

"The vote at the end I had to laugh at, because the people who held up their hands about thinking public school was best, have never set foot in a home school and they don't know any home schoolers, I am willing to bet on it."

Why do you feel so comfortable making that assumption? And why do you laugh at people who have different opinions than you?
I am very comfortable making it because I deal with people who voice their opinion without seeing all sides. When people tell me they think public school is the best for our children, I always ask, have you ever visited a Homeschool? I always get this answer "well No But".
I don't feel like you can give a honest opinion unless you know all sides.
I laugh at them not because  their opinion is different, but because they haven't done their home work.  Now you let someone who has visited both the public school and several homeschools give me their opinion and I will respect their opinion no matter what it is.

 
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November 26, 2006, 9:28 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: beavcadia

I seem to have left out the fact that I am not fresh off the teacher boat with no experience.  I currently work with young children in  pre-k.  I use many of the techniques I have learned in school on a daily basis, and believe it or not...they work!  As I read the responses to what I've written, I can't help but feel that people assume I am against home schooling, I'm really not.  I just feel that before making such a big decision about they best way to educate children, people  should educate themselves.  I realize that many home school parents are educated and I really encourage that, but too many don't have the proper credentials.  I also believe that a parent is the most important tool when it comes to education.  A teacher can drill something until s/he's blue in the face, but if there is a lack of parental support, that thing goes in one ear and out of the other.  I encourage parent's to teach at home, because children learn from everything around them.  Look, I love children, you know as well as I do that we don't go into teaching for the money!  I just wanted to alert some people that might think they can home school without any education that teaching is  not as easy as it looks.  Any person that has studied education will at least agree to that.

What do you consider proper credentials for parents to have in order to homeschool? 

 

I have studied education, and I don't agree that teaching is difficult. 


I also have never met a person without any education. 

 
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November 26, 2006, 9:29 am PST

homeschooling

I know homeschool my daughter that ADHD she is in the 6th grade.  She is doing so much better and learning at her pace and grade level that she can understand.  I have worked as an instructional aid for years thru the school districts and I personally have seen  how our school let the students down and the parents.  I want my daughter not to fall thru the cracks of  our school system.  The school we go thru is a 6 year acredited school that has more to offer than the schools she had gone to.  I personally had donated 3 computers to her teacher to put in her class and they have yet to be connected because the school site has not reconnected the internet to the class so the kids could not use them to learn on. Since my daughter has been homeschooled she uses the computer daily learns to type which they don't even teach in school anymore.   She is going  a field trip to the Monterey Bay Aquiriam on monday the only place she went in her old school was the bowling alley down a few blocks from the school  for they did not have the money to take them anywhere else and we had to pay for them to bowl go figure.   I have seen   a few kids that were homeschooled and they have been very well adjusted not what you see in regular schools.  Most kids do not even want to be there for they do not get the help they need for the teachers hands are tied for what they can and cannot  teach.  We need to make sure we do our jobs as parents to raise our children with the rigjht values and skills to get thru life.  My daughter has asked my why I did not homeschool her sooner she is much more happy know and in a 4 hour day she learns more than what she did  all day in her old school.   The world is our classroom and she is always learning and growing we have discussions all the time on different subjects and she finds the information and we compare to our books and  how it applies to real life do kids in a classroom get that no.  So do put down homeschooling for we are learning more than what  thery do.  We are  have  access to more at our school library  than most school.  She works out of  her own book and not photo copies.  Parents  don't  realize how much goes on behind the scenes at school that they don't even know about.  I did not want that for my daughter anymore I want to have values and morals. 

 
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November 26, 2006, 9:30 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: soebled

I have been watching the teaching skills comments come up in several posts and would like to make a brief observation about this.

 

Everything we do in life is because we are self-motivated to do it - we WANT to do it. This seems like an unlikely statement when you first read it, but if you examine it carefully, it is indeed true. Dr. Phil calls it a "payoff" and regardless of whether our motives are judged as good or bad, we always have a motive whether it resides in our conscious or unconscious mind. 

 

If we find a topic interesting, our interest motivates us to pursue it further. When being instructed under whatever method, if a particular topic is not interesting to a student, successful teaching demands a motivating influence be uncovered. This is often done with grades. It could also come in the form of rewards such as increased interactive attention from the "teacher", praise, or other material or activity related rewards. It could also come in a punitive action such as activity curtailment, withdrawal of approval, etc.

 

Isn't the science of teaching all about uncovering and discovering what the child wants so that this can be used to manipulate the child to learn what you want them to? This is not seen as a bad thing because the stance is understood, if also unspoken, that the means justifies the end. A responsible parent should already have read up on developmental stages of children. I would say this was what probably started my whole journey of questioning our education system to begin with.

 

If a subject is boring, or the teacher teaching it, then the self-motivation must be brought about through another avenue than the actual satisfaction of curiosity sated from learning about the subject in question.

 

BUT...in a vast majority of our schools it is simply impossible to allow such a thing to happen - each student learning and studying what actually interests them. I understand and appreciate this fact. To me it seems comparable to sticking your hand in a boiling pot of oil and then having the experts working out how to ease the pain, scarring, coming up with ways to enhance the healing system. All of these things being unnecessary if one simply didn't stick their hand in the post in the first place.

 

The one thing that perpetuates most of the beliefs about the benefits of public school and it's current curriculum, is that children will never desire to learn certain subjects that have attracted the labels of boring or not interesting (while always remaining a necessity). This is often based on our own experiences of being force fed a subject when the time was not right for us or when our lack of interest was so severe that our resentment of the other methods used to garner our agreement to learn the subject, has left a bad taste in our mouth for the subject itself.

 

The world is actually a very fascinating place and children know this. Each child is an adult in the making and we all know as adults that we have different interests and pursuits and if we didn't, how would all that needs to be done in the world, get done? When deciding to homeschool, this is the one thing that almost undid my decision. Would my children actually be interested to learn about the things that bore me stiff, yet are things of benefit to know in order to live a successful life? Yes, they really do want to learn these things. Each at their pace and in within their own time frame, but with the self-motivation that comes from genuine interest. When it comes to learning there is no other motivator in existence that matches the success rate of this motivator (though the experts keep looking).

 

Education is very important, this any intelligent person will agree upon. Do teachers have childrens best interests at heart? I believe quite a lot of them do. I homeschool because compared to what the schools can currently offer my children, I know I can do a better job of educating my children and preparing them for the world - which they already live in. A rich environment is a given. You must surround your children with the situations (to an appropriate degree) they will face as adults. They will not learn to read without books - obviously. If you place them in situations where it becomes obvious to them that certain knowledge or skills would enhance the experience, they will then see a need to learn the information, or skills. It is so simple it is easily dismissed. Children are hugely underestimated by our society.

 

If the school systems radically changed, I would examine the new structures and make a new decision at that time, as flexibility is a requirement for success in this new world we are living in.

Wonderful message, thank you for sharing.
 
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November 26, 2006, 9:40 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

I find your assessment a bit harsh, but not without merit. I agree that many education courses are worthless.  My major was English Education, and I was often a bit taken aback by some of the Elementary Education majors. Some were fantastic, but there was definitely an almost simplistic mentality among others.

 

Do you ever question why that is? Why Education as a field of study does not attract the best and the brightest? Someone else had posted that Elementary Education majors are among the lowest SAT scores entering college. Why WOULD someone with high SAT scores choose Education as a field of study and as a career path? The great pay? The respect? A few people will have such a driving passion for teaching that they will choose it, but I think the majority of students who see  limitless prospects for their future will choose a career with more money, respect, and opportunity for advancement.

 

The bottom line is we will for the foreseeable future need public schools. Don't you think we have a responsibility to attract some of the best and brightest to the profession? As citizens, don't we have a responsibility, whether our children are in the public schools or not, to CARE that the people charged with educating children are competent, qualified, and respected?

I really liked this post Julie.

The way public school teachers get a blanket "dissing" (e.g. projecting experiences with a bad teacher, or even series of teachers to mean that all teachers must be that way), it's a wonder anyone has the desire to pay for an education to become one!

I do, however know some teachers who have point blank admitted to me that the reason they wanted to be teachers, aside from a passing interest in teaching, is that they thought the vacation time was a great deal.

There are other teachers I know who would (and do) do it year round if they could.  They love it, and have a passion for what children need as opposed to paying lip service to it.  They are also the majority of teachers I know.


 
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November 26, 2006, 9:40 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: winterwarmth

For parents of children in public school:
"I send my kids to public school" (needs no qualifiers - everyone does it)

For parents of children in private schools:
I send my kids to private school, but I am not like those homeschoolers!"

For parents of Homeschooled children: "Well, at least I'm not an unschooler, I provide structure and guidance!"

What are unschoolers left with? "Uh, I don't beat my kids!"  ?
Well, in all fairness this is how YOU see it as an unschooler.

There have been unschoolers here with the attitude that they love their kids more than everyone else because they aren't being forced or punished into learning things.

I even saw someone alluding to the Ferber Sleep Method as if that is abusive. I used that method with great success. I now have a family that all gets a good night sleep...we all wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed! LOL

From the posts HERE I get the feeling that those who send their kids to public school are sending their kids to death traps being run by sadistic children haters who want to kill every curious cell in their bodies. (Not you...you've been by far the most respectful unschooler/homeschooler on the whole board.)

I mean, it all depends on how you look at it.
 
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