Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

I also know several unschooling families.  None of them are ultra-religious. 

 

What people need to understand is that unschooling isn't just washing your hands of textbooks, curriculums, and planning.  It's actually a greater responsiblity, creating an educationally-rich environment, and providing their children with lots of resources.  Dr. Phil actually made a few points FOR unschooling that he may not have realized.  Saying he enjoyed learning about the market in his 30s and absorbed and enjoyed it was the point of self-led learning, whether it be by a child or an adult.  Unschooling parents often leave little tidbits about to spark a child's interest.  I know many who put interesting books in the bathroom (even as an eclectic homeschooler I do the same) and before they know it, the child is asking for resources on that topic. :)  Trust me, we all remember the things we wanted to learn about way better than that we learned just to pass a test. 

 

<grin> on the class size comment.  The county in which I live just published that they are short 1,300 students by their annual projections.  Luckily they're blaming the rising insurance, home prices, and taxes for this, not the homeschoolers or private schoolers.

 I suggest you look at state home schooling laws on HSLDA.org. These are home schooling (educational) Statutes (Laws) that are governed by each state.

Please explain how the unschooler on the show Friday, who does not do tests, keep records, or use books could be following the law in ....lets say they or another family is in pennsylvania:

People who home school in this state must:
1) Give 180 days instruction per year or 900 hours at the elementary level or 990 hours at the secondary level
2) Teach: Elementary level: English spelling, reading, writing, arithmetic, U.S. and Pennsylvania history, civics, health and physiology, physical education, music, art, geography, science, safety and fire prevention Secondary level: English language, literature, speech and composition, science, geography, civics, world, U.S., and Pennsylvania history, algebra and geometry, art, music, physical education, health, safety, and fire prevention
3) Have a High school diploma or equivalent to teach
4) Give notice: File a notarized affidavit with the local superintendent prior to start of home school and annually by August 1st thereafter
5) Recordkeeping: Maintain a portfolio of materials used, work done, standardized test results in grades 3, 5, and 8, and a written evaluation completed by June 30 of each year
6) Tests: Administer standardized tests in grades 3, 5, and 8; submit results as part of portfolio

Point: If you are not following what your state law for home schooling requires....you are in violation of the home schooling laws.

Here's more: http://www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/Pennsylvania.pdf

I'm an administrator at a Southern co-ed private liberal arts college that is well ranked by US News & World Reports, Princeton Review and others, so our students are fairly competitive.  Every year we get a handful of applicants who were home schooled for various reasons. Some have parents who chose home schooling over available public or private schools, some were children of missionaries or business people residing in countries and towns where American schools weren't easily available.  Of those we accept, I really see no difference, either socially or academically, between this group and students who attended public or private schools.  More and more, colleges and universities have information on their admissions web sites for home schooled students.  This is not to say that every home-schooled child will do well in college, but then again, not every student who attended public or private school will do well academically or socially.

It aggravates me because unless/until something bad happens at the hands of a public school teacher, the assumption is that they are the best equipped people to teach our children.  With home education, the reverse is true - you are guilty until proven innocent.

The school officials did know.  The staff nurses repeatedly brought up concerns, and we still have no idea who dropped the ball - however, in the year and a half since it came to ligt we have had the princicpal, assistant principal and superintendent all resign.  So we'll probably never know where the breakdown really occurred.

Being a conscientious parent and foster parent, I know parents flounder.  I see more floundering than not outside of the homeschool co-op, but have maintained all along that I (and many other home schoolers) do NOT advocate home education for everyone.  For those who do take on the awesome responsibility, it would be nice to not be thought of as uneducated, unprepared and unable to teach our children - and unwilling to see the "damage" we are doing to them (statements brought up by others in this forum over the past few days).  In my experience, I have met more unprepared, not-cut-out-for-the-job public school teachers than home schooling parents.  I understand that is only my experience, but that is my perspective.

As far as teachers being rewarded for their work, where in the private sector can you count on a 9-19% raise every single year?  Not pay for merit, mind you, but pay for simply warming a seat? (Our teachers don't receive merit pay.)  That's what our teachers union gets in this town.  They start at $50K + per year (out of college, most of our teachers are young, recent graduates) and then get annual raises like we would never see in the private sector.  My husband is lucky to get a 3% raise every year, yet we are funding raises in excess of our town's budget.  That is why teachers don't have jobs and get laid off - poorly negotiated labor contracts.  As a teacher, would you rather have a 19% pay raise one year and then lose your job, or would you rather have the 3% raise and KEEP your job over time?

Public school seems to be the last acceptable place where we are expected to keep our children even if we find the environment unacceptable or toxic. (Again, the posts are going by so quickly that people may not know I don't make the assumption that all public schools are toxic or bad places)

If ones home were a den of iniquity and abuse, their children would be legally removed, not forced to stay in the situation while people step in and volunteer to try to "make their home a better place."  The parents would have to do an AWFUL lot of proving that their children will never so much as have a finger laid on them or a harsh word spoken to them ever again in order to regain custody! (and rightly so)

If I even so much as dislike the service at a restaurant, I stop going there, I don't hire myself out as a chef.

If someone is bullied in the workplace, or their working life is made impossible to maintain due to health reasons, or other problems, many people change their jobs and/or seek legal recourse to get the problem causer ousted.

At any rate, I don't feel the need to apologize for exercising my right to raise my child as I see fit.

I agree.  People who say stuff like that are obviouly those who are not capable of self-education.  

I could not even reply to that post (without being impolite)!  I'm glad you did.  Thanks!

 

I was surprised to see that the unschoolers didn't use self-education as a way to explain their motives.  Anyone else?  Motivation and Determination are both very powerful.  Those are lost with forced education.  I've seen it daily with my own homeschooled 7 yr old.   We are classical in our approach but do a lot of *unschooling* in the kitchen and when out in the real world everyday.

 

 

Although I do understand the concern about homeschooling/unschooling issues, the government school is not always the only answer. Here in our home we call our schooling endeavors "Home Skilling".

  We do not use tests per se because we feel that if the children are "getting it" then what is the point of going over it again? I realize that tests in a government school situation are necessary because with so many children to deal with at once, one cannot be sure that they are all "getting it" and a test would help to see where they might need additional help.

  We do require the children to read, write and work mathematical problems on paper. These skills are necessary even for those that will never go to college. Not EVERY child is college bound either. Not necessarily because he/she doesn't qualify but because they simply have no desire to attend. And most importantly, if our children were, for any reason, ever in need to provide for their families they would be able to. Our children have learned how to grow and raise their own foods, animal husbandry, earning money doing things that most probably wouldn't want to do even in the most dire circumstances. They can make their own clothes, build their own furniture, keep records and balance a budget.

  I have seen many statements that want to include ALL government schools in a category of styles, class size limitations and services. The fact is each state has different requirements and services allows to their students and families. Here, for instance, kindergarten classes average 35 students. There really isn't a cap on that number "officially" but they do say that anything over 45 students "should" have a second teacher or "teachers aide" as they are fond of referring to them.

  The government schools here allow home educated children to attend even a single class if a parent wishes to take advantage of the service. If a child is having trouble in math or they want the child to have lab time for science then they can enroll for JUST that class. Many of the folks that home educate around our area have their children take music or art classes from the government school. The government school gets a state subsidy just like they do for the other children.

  We had our children in the government school many years ago and felt that what they were learning wasn't conducive to living and working in the "real world". For all the money that the government school receives for teaching children we felt that the types of curriculum (for lack of a better word) being taught were, in fact, undermining our home and family values.

  The government schools here often hire teachers that are not "certified" to teach the subject they were hired to teach. Just this past year there was an issue about how these teachers who have been teaching these subject for the last 10 years really should go back to get their certifications to teach those subjects or the government school should hire teachers who ARE certified. I think most folks would be very surprised at how many teachers in their government schools are not qualified to teach the subject they are hired to teach.

  In our home our HomeSkilling includes not only the three "R's" but we also believe that basic lifeskills are important for survival as adults. Our children are not cloistered. They have social activities that they participate in by attending fellowship, their jobs, neighbors and family.  Our eldest 4 children are doing quite well with the last three up and coming.

  Our eldest girl is married with two fine young boys, eldest boy is an electrician, second eldest boy is attending an art academy in California, third eldest boy is in the National Guard as a Senior Medic and is attending college to earn his RN degree. The fourth boy is working full time and will be attending college this coming year to earn certifications in automotive mechanics (a passion of his). The next girl just finished up her highschool (she's 16) and will be attending the college locally for fun. She simply doesn't want higher education and enjoys working at a bookstore and taking art and writing classes. Our youngest is 14 and is not decided just yet about what she wants to do about higher education. Although she is leaning toward becoming a dentist.

  Our state requires all homeskilled students to take state exams in 3rd, 8th, and 10th grades. Our children have all passed these tests in the 90-105th percentile each time. We don't sit at a table 7 1/2 hours a day 5 days a week. We do a little bookwork but mostly it's all in daily lifeskills and the testing scores prove that they are doing well according to government standards.

  I will say that in THIS state, a government school student is required to pass those tests with only a 15th percentile score! That's why Johnny can't read! It's not really required that a student KNOW anything anymore. What we have found by speaking with teachers in the past is that they only want the children to get the concept not actually be able to DO the work correctly. Written papers would come home with our eldest children that were simply awful. No punctuation, terrible spelling, not even grammar was marked down. These were papers that we would not have allowed the children to turn in to us. Yet the teachers excuse was, "we just want to make sure they understand the concept, the grammar and spelling are purely fluff". I STILL don't know what that meant:s

  I applaud any children that are able to get through the "fluff" and still be able to achieve. I applaud parents that are involved in their childrens daily education whether in government school, private school or home educating.

  Someone said that they thought it was unhealthy for children to be around their parents all day. We couldn't disagree more. We did not have children so that we could give them to someone else to enjoy for most of their waking moments. Perhaps in some situations the government school is a healthier environment than being at home but not ALL homes call for intervention.

  For ALL who are seeking the "right" educational environment for their children...please keep yourselves aware of ALL that is going on in their educational lives. Check EVERYthing out. Keep abreast of ALL the new curriculums that are coming through your government school and requirements of your state (in the home education area). Know what your rights are and don't hesitate to step right in and take charge of the education they are receiving, even if it is from outside sources. You have a right as parents to go to the government school and take your child out of ANY class that you don't want your child to have. Here, we would be allowed to have our child taken out of math class if we didn't want them learning math. That's extreme but to give you an idea of the power that parents DO have but don't excercise because they are not aware of their rights.

  Have a blessed week!

   I plan on homeschooling my son mostly because,  He wont have to worry about not getting his education because, someone decides they are mad at another person and wants to get into a fight because they don't belong in that click.  I don't have to see him on the news dead, because some kid got mad and decided he was going to do something about it.  I want him to focus on is education without out side influences to disturb his train of thought.  

   There are other alternatives to get him people skills other than public Schools.

   I have also considered private schools that would be my 2nd choice if I cant home school him or if he chooses he doesn't want to be home schooled. So far I have not seen private schools get shot up.  My husband went to private and public schools and said he'd chose private over public at anytime of the year.  He agrees with me on the whole issue.   

This posting,I believe, should be the bottom line of this debate. 

As Dr. Phil said on his show, history tends to repeat itself.  For most of humanity there were not public schools, and we seemed to do just fine without them in the past.  Since they are a recent development and have not doubt served their purpose (and continue to do so for the majority of society), I doubt that they will cease to exist anytime in the near future.

 

I do think my children learn more by being out and about where life is being lived can teach them more than a classroom.  Problem is, is that the school system is a behemoth and very difficult to change.  I doubt that my efforts or even those combined with other homeschooling parents could affect change soon enough to have any effect on my own children.

 

Notice I'm not blaming teachers or schools for society's ills.  I'm not.  But I speak with parents of other public school children here in town (my kids have many schooled friends) and the stuff their kids are exposed to at a young age is atrocious.

 

Before I'm accused of sheltering my children from the big bad world -- far from it.  We regularly discuss sex, drugs, pot, gays, gay marriage, nudity, porn, etc.  The thing about it is that at home, they're free to discuss it and get an ADULT's input.  On the bus, on the playground, many of these conversations take place OUT OF EARSHOT and without adult input.