Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

I don't know about other states - this is the norm in PA . Our test is the PSSA and our kids have specific PSSA classes. They spend a great deal of time preparing for these tests. I missed the original post so I am not positive this is the kind of thing you are talking about.

 From the  PA Dept. of Ed. website.......

I can't give you the answers for every state, but I think the whole issue is far more complex than most people realize. In my experience, the state decided to create and use its own test rather than use a generic standardized test. Theoretically, the test was created according to the current curriculum standards. However, the state standards were rather loose, and individual districts had much more leeway in developing their own standards.

When the tests became very "high stakes", the curriculum guidelines from the state became much tighter and regulated. Publishing companies got on the $$ bandwagon and started mass producing test ready and practice materials to better prepare kids for the state tests.

When you consider the term "teaching to the test", it really isn't an INHERENTLY bad thing. The alternative is to test kids on things we HAVEN'T taught them, and that doesn't sound like a great idea either, especially in light of how these test results are being used to evaluate teachers and retain students. The problem lies in the extreme. When we are exclusively teaching for the betterment of a single test score....when creativity goes out the window in favor of skill and drill practices....when we are plowing ahead with "curriculum" regardless of the fact that less than half the students are making the journey with us....when the intangible, immeasurable areas (art, music, PE, creativity, independent learning, joy) are lost in this mad dash for test scores...then we are doing a great disservice to the students. We are trying to quantify things that are not always quantifiable, and we are allowing much too much to ride on the results of a single test.

I totally agree.  One thing I have learned from my son is this:  If I put worksheets in front of him after explaining a new concept, he does the work without ever even understanding the concept.  I don't know how kids do this, but I remember doing it myself.

I think that continuing-on before he gets it is one of the worse things we can do.  I know that teachers bond and build relationships with their students, but often the kid is pulling the wool over your eyes and you don't even realize that they may NOT know the material.  That must make the job even more difficult.

I am a happy homeschooling Mom...you know why?  The reason is that I know exactly what my kids are learning, I know what where their strengths lie, I know what they need to succeed!!!  Before I homeschooled my kids all I would get is a report card that stated a letter grade for math, a letter grade for history, etc.  Now I know what they are learning in math, in history, in science, and I can help them delve into the wonderful world of learning and show them how much life is about continually learning and expanding your knowledge. 

So many school kids lose the love of learning because they are being taught to the test and not given the opportunity to expand and explore on a particular point of interest.  There is just not enough time to delve further into material because they have to move on to the next thing that is on the test...how sad is that????

I am a product of the public school system...the bullying, the "special" groups that don't let you sit with them at the lunch table, the "poor white trash" label and all the wonderful experiences that went with it.  Do I go back for my school reunions...no way...because most of the people I encountered in school cared very little for the "smart kids" and more about the social groups. 

I homeschool because I want more for my kids...I want them to learn all they can and experience the love of learning the way it should be.

I never said they did...You obviously have never been forced tomeet with the school psychologist as he/she tells you he/she feels johnny is ADHD and needs testing.  I personally have not but I have many friends who have.  You are right they themselves cannot write the scripts but they can and do apply plenty of pressure to parents who feel as though they have no other option than to comply."

Since you yourself admit never having to deal with the public school on this issue with your children I don't think you really understand.  Julie1418 is right- if there is behavior that needs to be altered many parents are resistant to change either with or without meds.  They, in turn, put the pressure on the SCHOOL claiming they have no issues with this at home. The problem is that many parents are in denial of the problematic behavior.   I have met with my son's school psychologist, all his teachers, the principal and created a plan which is a legal document that helps my son succeed.  In fact, we just revised this plan not too long ago and the principal included my son to be a part of the process and have input.  It includes things like he has three Time Out cards- when HE starts to feel as if he's going to be disruptive he can give one of these to the teacher and take a break outside the classroom.  He gets three a day.  Most days he uses maybe one.  Our goal for my son is for him to try and self-monitor when behavior is appropriate or not.  As for meds, yes my son takes them.  His Dad and I made that decision before he ever started school.  We ffelt if at 5 when he can't sit for his favorite video he would be at a disadvantage in schoool.  To note, we have not "upped" his meds as we are trying to teach self-montioring which is the most effective.  However, at 8 he needs the extra help the meds provide.  Until someone is faced with this decsision they cannot fathom how difficult it is.   Smart?  Very and my husband and I are grateful we have a good school with good caring staff to help us help our child succeed.  Also, my husband and I have been active in his education and very compliant with the school and open to any and all help they suggest/provide.  I think things like this are a two-way street with parents being open to hear things they maybe don't like.  The fact is, I am not there to see how my son behaves in this setting therefore I rely on the teacher.  She calls our home to talk to our son (her choice) and she and I email a few times a week.  The key is communication and agreement there is behavior that needs to change.   Just my two cents from my personal experience. 

I love the time out card idea!

Your son was unable to sit through a video at age 5.....you don't think that is just a normal little boy? What made you choose to medicate rather than simply trying to wait before putting him in such a structured environment? Most little boys I know change drastically between 5 and 8 without medication. I'm not judging your decision - just trying to wrap my brain around it.

Well, as  I stated before it was a tough decision.  Since he was so smart (speaking at 10 months, Spanish on his 2nd birthday) I had many people saying he would be bored in school.  I made sure he had plenty of stimulation at home.  However, with ADHD kids the more structure you can provide the better- less time to make poor choices. Waiting would have made it worse. 

 I had many people stating your views-  he's just a boy.  Why is disruptive behavior (not listening, touching things, incessant talking and constant movement) considered normal for a boy but not for a girl?  Boys and girls are wired different BUT his behavior was out of control- not mean, not aggressive, just all over the map.  I tried all the methods and nothing worked.   Being a two income family we both worked (and used daycare) so routine was in place from day one.  That helped but wasn't enough.  One day after hours upon hours of constant jibbering my husband told him to stop and he physically couldn't - even knowing he might get "flicked" he physically couldn't stop.  When I went for our first appt. with the psychologist (holding my 6 week old) at age 4 he confirmed to me everything I had been going through.  He repeated no less than 10 "catch phrases" about what I may have heard about his behavior.  He also stated above all he wanted me to know this was not due to "bad parenting"- something else I feared as well.  So, for one more year we tried no meds and nothing worked.  I knew in my heart something had to change-

it was affecting our whole family.  Many kids who have this behavior and meds are not utilized end up self medicating later in life- with drug/alcohol addiction being rampant.  Another doctor visit (this time with my hubby) confirmed my HUSBAND"S path in life to a tee and it was then we knew meds could help.  Since, we have never regretted our decision.  Meds (for us) are not a cure all but a way to finally be parents and not "firefighters".  We can reason with him and things "stick".  At last, I realized this is not about me it is about him- it really doesn't matter how I feel about it what matters is if it helps him.  HE doesn't like feeling like this, HE WANTS to be calmer and a better listener and as a parent I have an obligation to give him every resource to make that happen.  If he had a cold, would I give cold medicine?  Of course I would...this is no different.  Many people do not understand and that's OK.  Those who have been there "get it" and those who know my husband and I commend us for being great parents.  More importantly, people who know my son (from sports etc) have NO CLUE until we tell them- that's the biggest compliment and reinforcer I can think of.  Thanks for listening....sorry for the long post but it is something close to my heart. 

I agree with  your post to a point.  If a child has a neuroglogical problem, yes, this must be fixed and schooling , either public or homeschool alone, cannot do that.  However, I wonder if the average homeschooler has the training, financial means and access to the multiple doctors it may take to get the problem fixed.  I can say for myself I sure don't have any of the above.  We both work and the time and means it may take to solve this complex problem is far beyond us.  We are grateful we have a multitude of resources available to help us with things like this, if need be.  Just so you know, my son is ADHD and his school is great in helping us with that.  Never heard of a school (or teacher) denying help for a child.  However, in your example, what stops the parent from practicing with the child IN ADDITION to school?  I agree, many people hold public school responsible for things they should not be.  They have expectations that are not realistic and then decide to homeschool/unschool based on these un-met goals.  While there are some successes in the homeschool/unschool realm I also believe there are sucesses in the public school realm as well.  I also think teaching my child to act within expected norms is beneficial as well.    I don't think at age 5 having to learn about anyting for 10-15 minutes is unreasonable- if it were then public schools would not exist.   I believe kids should be kids when the time is right.  Learning to sit still, wait your turn, and most importantly that your behavior affects others are valuable lessons in my book.  This is what my son learns in school each day. 

I'm sure it was a tough decision, and it's great that it is working out for you. 

However, I don't understand how you can say that it doesn't matter how you feel.  Most of your post was about how you feel.  And even if your son wanted to be calmer, I doubt that he could really understand all that should be considered regarding the medication, such as long term effects.  And that you would compare the brain altering medications used to treat ADHD, usually for years, to taking cold medicine for a few days is really amazing.  Do you really think it's no different?

As far as the behavior you described, it is certainly in the range of normal for a lot of children, not just boys.  I have 2 daughters.  The years when my oldest was 4-7 were extremely difficult.  I did consider the idea of medication, wondering if it would help.  To bring this back to the discussion of homeschooling versus public schooling, my daughter's personality played a huge role in our decision to keep her home.  I do believe that it is very damaging to expect very young children to conform to the expectations of the school regarding behavior at such a young age, especially when they want to be like the other kids but cannot.   It really depends a lot on the child.  Medication can help some children feel good about themselves, but more often it is used to make things easier for teachers or parents.  

I wouldn't lump my child in a category with "ADHD kids".  It is widely believed that the more structure the better, but I don't believe that is true categorically.  Just like I don't believe that waiting would have made it worse, stated as a fact.  How can you know that?  In fact, waiting makes things much better for a lot of people.  I have read countless stories about children with behavior just like your son at 4-6 years of age who do not take medication and by the time they are 8 or 9, they have settled down immensely.   My daughter just turned 12, and she is still very emotional with extreme highs and lows, but she doesn't have nearly the difficulty with impulse control  that she used to.  And to me what's most important is that she doesn't believe she needs medicine to be normal.

-Christy