Topic : Is This Normal Social Discussion

Your brother's book sounds like it could be a very interesting story, I hope that it will be quite a sucess for him.

Don't worry Trace, I too wonder at times WHY? we have to get involved in these matters of War and stuff. WHY can't these countries just deal with it themselves and WHY can't our countries just mind their own business!

I know that America has had so many soliders die over the last few years that America has been involved in the likes of Iraq. All those brave men and women who are trying to do the right thing, but then get killed instead. It's just so wrong all of it, if you know what I mean.

Australia has also lost men, but only a hand full since 2002, but still each life that has been lost, should never have been lost in the first place.

I know that where Mark will be, he will be safe, well safer then if he was out in the middle of the sh*t that is going down right now! He will be staying inside the Base for 99% of the time, so I'm not so worried about him being hurt, and while he is on base we will be able to keep in good contact, via phone, email and mail. I will be able to send him care packs each week and so will make sure that there is atleast afew drawings from Stephanie as well as other things too.

I too, tried to stay away from the troubles at school, only cause I just didn't want to get into any fights or trouble, but one day in high school, this b*t*ch tried to push me down some stairs, so I just turned around punched her one in the face. Turns out I broke her nose and after that she didn't bother me again.

I prefer peace and harmony to fighting anyday!

Anyway, Trace you and your dear family all Take Care and hope to hear from you soon, Love Kelly.

 You are one lucky girl. In an unlucky way mind you. The last I heard some marines where there for 8 mos and due to come back, but they had to stay another six months. In the interview a soldier said "We knew when we came here we'd probably have to stay so we were already ready for the news. We're Marines!"

You know I never thought to ask him but of course I will.

Just a tiny size soapbox. ;)

You see the reason you are free to be pacifists is because someone somewhere laid down their life so that tyranny wouldn't be what rules this world. As cliche as it sounds, freedom isn't free. =)

Oh and the media would like for us not to trust our leaders...it sells better.

You have to love a country that allows people to whine and wail about their government, and you have to love our soldiers who protect that right. Sure beats our heads being sawed off with butter knives for having freedom of thought, speech, religion, press and the list goes on and on. ;)

Hugs,

~Ami

xoxox

There are little wars going on in every corner of the world, every city, town and street corner.  And the police in every country of the world are soldiers, getting up every morning and leaving their families to go fight in those wars.  Why do they have to go off and fight?  So that the rest rest of us can peacefully go about our business, leave our children at schools, drive on the roads and work in our offices without fearing that we or our loved ones will be the victim of a crime at any moment.  Of course, life is not perfect, so crime happens and innocent people do get hurt and the soldiers (police) die for the cause.  And we honor them and their families for their sacrifices.  And you know what?  Those police aren't just protecting their own street or neighborhood.  They're often going in to the worst parts of town and protecting the citizens there. 

How is that different from what our government leaders and soldiers are doing overseas?

I'm certainly glad when I see a police car cruise through my neighborhood -- it means that I don't have to keep a shotgun next to the door and keep an all night vigil to protect my home.  I'm also proud that Americans, and those from many other countries, are willing to put their lives on the line so that the innocents in other parts of the world can feel a bit safer.

It isn't any different at all.

We who sit in our comfortable homes have no clue what it is like to live in a country that is in chaos.

I have some wonderful friends who are refugees from Zimbabwe. One part of the family escaped 20 years ago, his sister and her family escaped two years ago. Jane (the sis) and her husband woke up one morning to find strangers sleeping in her living room, helping themselves to their food and belongings and there was nothing that they could do to prevent it. The fear they lived under for months until they could get out was harrowing and nothing we can even begin to imagine. Their friends were pulled out of their homes and shot. Her brother (who came here 20 years ago) left when Mugabe got in office. He was a fifth generation colonists, a farmer, who was having to ride his tractor daily with a machine gun across his lap.

His children were babies and he and his wife decided to get out. They were allowed to leave with $25 and one suitcase per person. Nothing more could be taken out of the country. They walked away from their whole lives for freedom and the right to raise their children in a safe environment. He saw the worst coming. He came here and started from scratch, and I mean scratch. The Catholic refuge helped them find share cropper jobs and they have done well these last 20 years.

You nor I can imagine what it is like for many people in the world. But never ever think that those people do not crave the freedoms we have and are willing to do most anything to have them.

One reason terrorists hate us so much is because we allow people to think, to dissent, to question. A very dangerous idea for an ideaology that depends on unquestioning followers to do things like suicide bombings. Freedom is a very real threat to those who would rule through fear and tyranny. Yet it is by far the most desired right in the world.

I don't see people dying to get into places like Iraq or Zimbabwe, but I do see people dying trying to get into the US. You know the media rants about how hated the US is....that is hilarious considering we have an illegal immigration problem that is gigantic. Would you risk your life to get into a nation that is hated?? doh.

So want an Ami theory? Well want it or not here goes....hehe

You know the fastest way to end this war? Educate all the women, give them an equal voice, drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century and then we will see some peace.

One of our headlines yesterday was a story about a  middle eastern family whose father who strangled and killed his daughter for wanting a divorce from her husband. Their marriage was arranged and she came to the states and realized that freedom is wonderful thing. She didn't love him, she wanted a divorce. Her father killed her for it. That is how ingrained the subservient mentality is, and freeing that is key.

Ack, I need to go to bed. Hugs to all, I loves you moocho.

~Ami

xoxox

Hi all,

First things first, JP and Kelly, you are both in my thoughts and I admire you both for the courage that you have to face the fears that you understandably must have.  Kelly, I am happy to hear that Mark will be in a safe area and I hope that you meet him in Rome or Egypt.  I want to hear all the details of that trip!!

Vicki-Happy Belated Anniversary!!

Trace-Sorry to hear of the crap that you are having to deal with regarding the jerk.  It just plain isn't fair.  Love your trip stories and I look forward to more and I promise I will be more patient than JP  ; ).

Ami-I'm not sure if I officially told you but the CD was great.  No wonder you are such a proud mama.

The girls have been keeping me busy now that summer is here.  We are getting ready to leave on vacation on Sunday and I am having a birthday party for my baby on Saturday (she will be 6).  They grow up too damn fast but you all know that. 

I find it funny that I am running around getting ready to go on vacation to the beach 4 hours away and we live about 6 miles from a different beach.  We (area residents) spend half the summer complaining about how bad the summer people drive and the traffic they create, how they crowd the grocery store, etc. so what do we do, go and create traffic and crowd the stores somewhere else.

Sending hugs out to Neecie, KAK and whoever else I missed.  Anyway hope you all are enjoying your summer (and winter for Kelly).

I guess this is my turn on the soap box.  I've debated with myself what to say, if anything, because like Ami I would not want to offend anyone of you.  So here goes....

There are things that Ami and Neecie posted that I completely agree with, that freedom is not free, that police are waging wars every day in our country, that most of the media are a bunch of fools and that the best way to end the war is to educate and liberate the women.

I, unlike Trace, am not a pacifist.  At one point in my life I thought I was but then I had the girls and I know that if anyone harmed them I would be more than capable of murder.  The other point that I realized it was on September 11.  I, like many, was filled with an anger that is so hard for me to describe.  That someone could attack the country that I love and hold dear, infuriated me beyond reason.  I so wanted revenge and justice.  I still do.  Afghanistan was a no brainer for me, I wanted him found and served on a silver platter to every single person who lost someone that they loved that day.

My feelings on Iraq were different and while I do not consider myself uninformed, I do respectfully disagree with many of the decisions that our leaders made.  I also hold the Pottery Barn policy of "You break it, you bought it" so I don't feel that we should make a hasty exit because things didn't work out as quickly as it did the first time we were there.  We need to be there and we need to help bring stability to that country.

Okay, now that I have said all that (and I hope that I have not offended) I will share a conversation that I had a little over a year ago with the brother of a friend of mine who had just returned from Iraq.  He had also been in Afghanistan at the beginning.  We were just exchanging small talk, how it was good to be home, how he had been in the Reserves for over 20 years, etc.  Now I don't share my political views in situations like this, what's the rule about politics and religion? 

Anyway, he tells me at some point that he was thinking about retirement for the first time because he just didn't agree with how things had gone down in Iraq at the start.  He felt strongly about Afghanistan but didn't like how our government had tried to link Iraq and 9/11.  Now here is the main reason I am mentioning this conversation, he didn't have to go to Iraq, it wasn't  required of him (I guess high enough on the food chain).  So I asked him why, if he felt this way did he go?  His answer was that he had a job to do that he was trained for and he had his soldiers under him that were counting on him to lead them and that is what really mattered.

In the end he didn't end up retiring and I came away with an even greater sense of gratitude for the men and women who serve this country.  Because while I may not agree with some things about Iraq, we have a group of people who are willing to do what needs to be done regardless of their personal feelings.  And this country needs people that can do just that.

Okay, I'm hopping off the soapbox now.

My best to all and sending out lots of hugs.

lol

That reminds me of a story way back in the beginning when the war first started, I was waiting on a family with a young child....3 maybe and a newborn. While his wife was looking without him I was stiting on a sofa while he was holding the baby and talking to him. He had told me that he was military and he was buying his wife a new living room because he was going back to Iraq but she didn't know it yet. He voluntered this time and she wasn't  gonna be happy about it. I asked why with such young children and he told me his field is a specialty field  and they needed someon with his no how in the worst way and he was a soldier and he "needed" to go.

Ya'l wouldn't believe the things these men mostly tell me! I waited on that that was a nurse? I'm not sure if I told you all about her. She sets up hospitals so she sees all the worst things you can see because of her position. She's angry because her son has gone 3 times. Apparently he's a specialist as well. Well I saw her yesterday and hugged her and said I was sorry I didn't seem to care about her, I was just so worried about my child and that I did care. It seems there's this place, that I now can not remember, that if you get a letter posted from there that person is not where they tell you they are. We have wars all over this continent that no one knows about that are very very dangerous. She had asked her son why the letter was posted from there and he said "Mom sometimes it's a routing thing and that's the last place before it comes to the states" Well she asked some of the patients and they tell "her" everything and they told her what I'd just posted. So now she has no idea where he is. 

I'm telling you the more I learn the more proud and in awe I am of our military. All militarys. Have ya'll heard about what's happening in Darfur? We have lots of military from all over the world trying to help those people, but they are so limited more than 1/2 have withdrawn troops but we are out numbered, out gunned and it's seems a hopeless, helpless situation. The guy being interviewed when asked about his feelings said "The only thing we can do is try to make things better." His expression was of complete helplessness. Of course he thinks his platoon and himself will probably be overtaken and become POW's.  *shaking head* And they keep on keeping on...

When Ralph's son is deployed, which he has been five times now, for short stints, he cannot tell a soul - not even his wife - where he is or what he does.  Clearly, he's involved somehow in the intelligence process.  All very hush, hush.

I'd like to say that I'm thrilled that Ingrid Betancourt and the other hostages in South America were rescued.  I saw her interviewed on Larry King and she is the epitome of a strong and brave woman.  I'm quite certain that I could npt have survived what she went through.

Ah and there in lies one of my many beefs with the media. Secrecy. Something that is tantamount to life and death for our soldiers and something our media and some people feel our government should not be entitled to have. 

I have a very good friend whose husband commands a helicopter corp in Afghanistan, he has been there since before it was officially a war. He tells me that the military cannot even notify relatives of death before they may see it on the news. My friend actually saw her husband one night with the media blathering all over about where a particular helicopter crashed. Yet she herself didn't even know where he was. Pretty damn disgusting to be honest.

What most people do not realize is there is no way in fact that the average lay person (and many levels of the military for that matter) have any real idea what is exactly involved. Or even the reasons why. While our media would like to take random statements and make them the issue, nothing regarding this war has ever been as simple as we have been told by our journalists. (I use the term with much disdain.) 

The war in Iraq has never been about a 'connection to 9/11'. Yet more often then not people will cite that as a reason. People will also say things like there were no 'wmds' which is utter nonsense. We know there were, we know there still are, and as they are located they are being disposed of, but do we hear about it? Nah. Telling the world that we were and are on the right track is not what they want to hear. Why? Mostly because it shows loud and clear the media is full of shite.

Last week an article told about how 550 metric tons of yellow cake was just sold by the Iraqi government to Canada (for them to use in nuclear power....something our country is too chicken to do...a box I shall climb on someday). Got a clue when this story ran? Oh those peak hours of people are reading the news don't you know *giant sarcasm*....midnight to 3:00 am. Well hellloooo I'm sure that is when most of my friends are reading the news....NOT.  Then poof it was gone from MSNBC.  Yet if you ask the lay person in this country they will tell you there was no yellow cake cause Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame said there wasn't.  Such hog wash. But no Saddam wasn't doing a thing to provoke anyway at all. That's why he said NO to UN inspectors returning right?? heh.

That bastard went the way all bastards such as him are going to go plain and simple. President Bush vowed the day after 9/11 that we would no longer tolerate terrorists in this world and no matter what it took we would hunt them, we would consider countries who harbored them the enemy, and we would dedicate ourselves to a long term commitment to this. From that day forward there should have been no mistaking on anyones part that this was not a Kuwait drive by. After over 400 terrorists attacks world wide in two decades, 80+ of which have been on our soldiers and embassies, we are finished 'talking' to people who don't care or have any comprehension of the word diplomacy.

Our media would have us think that we should just tell the likes of Ahmajenidad (animal who denies the holocaust happened, kidnapper of our hostages in the 70s, animal who proclaims he will blast the Isreali's into the sea) to sit down in the corner and be a good boy. *rolls eyes cough, cough* "That's right you murdering terrorist, git your butt in that happy chair now!"

Does anyone here realize a fantastic thing happened in the last two weeks? North Korea (psycho Kim Il-sung who shot missles over Japan) dismantled it's nuclear reactor. Did you guys know that? Just curious if you knew. This is a huge step forward to reducing nuclear power from the hands of mad men. We are now providing food relief for North Korea. One of the hottest hot spots of the world, that was threatening utter chaos in Asia has decided to join the 21st century. So how much media coverage did President Bush and our governement get praising such a great achievement?  Not as much as Christy Brinkley's divorce. How sad is that?

Yet is was all the news when Il-sung said he would never dismantle their nuclear reactors and would make nuclear weapons if they wanted to and fly them over Japan anytime they pleased and beat his chest long and loud...blah blah blah. Now that story we heard for months. Imagine that. *wonders if rolling eyes so much can cause them to get stuck rolling forever*

I'm not trying to be ugly here or even trying to change anyone's mind. Simply put, Loretta is absolutely right, 9/11 and Iraq have no direct connection at all.  So why do some people seem to think it did or that they were led to believe it did?

Because the events are entertwined but also so convoluted that the media isn't going to convey (nor can they) the whole picture in two minute sound bites. But worse the average public doesn't want to know the details and the exact points and reasoning. They will instead fine tune the quickie road rage opinion the media works to create.  

We went into Iraq because Saddam was a terrorist without question. How smart would it have been to not ask him to allow inspectors in to verify the amount and facilities that held these things? With our soldiers on the ground in the region? It would have been stupid not to demand to inspect. Better question...How smart was it for him to refuse? Not.

The UN knows without question that a calvalcade of heavy trucks moved massive amounts of something from Iraq into Syria just before we invaded Iraq. Sattelites prove this without question. The math isn't hard on this. The math gets even easier when you talk to our soldiers who were there in the first year, picking up rifles with "France" stamped all over them. **Oh light bulb flash!!! ** No wonder Koffi Anon, head of the UN (who is French thank you ....and whose son was in charge of the Food for Oil UN program....and who was later busted for stealing massive amounts of UN money) wouldn't support the US's decision to invade. Nor would Russia....omg the second most common "made in..." tag on weapons in Iraq. Hellllooooooooo. Of course with a cash cow like Iraq feeding the weapons industry in Russia...who had a failing economy and no use for it's weapons....and France...who has always played both sides of the fence in every single conflict in history....well sheese folks connecting the dots is cake. Damn if you could just get all the dots in one place it would be that is....but you know it's a scavenger hunt for the real dots and not the dramafest dots that sell more papers. Like I said it takes damn near a full time job to weed out the crap news from the real news. And then you have to have enough history and understanding to even know what you are reading.  I do NOT mean that in an ugly manner, it is simply the truth.

Saddam was going down from as far back as Clinton, maybe even Reagan. The mess in the middle East should have been dealt with during the reign of the Shah of Iran, but most of us know what a fiasco President Carter was and today we reap the 'benefits' of that mess. This has been decades coming, blaming Bush is naive. I am not saying he is perfect or without fault, but blaming him and somehow making this war be about 'him' is wrong both factually and morally in my opinion.

This is perhaps my favorite subject to debate. I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but I come from five generations of military that have been in every single war this country has ever been in, I have a degree in Economics with a minor in Poli Sci....this is my heart throb folks.  If I had been a boy I would have been at West Point. lol

Oh yeah and you can't believe how much I have to say about oil and it's part in all this. ;) But you know what....most people can only say "Haliburton".....which means they don't have a clue in reality.

 And I'll mention the chair of my poli sci department in college was an Iraqi, so believe me I know a lot about Iraq and it's world relations and the mind set of the religious factions there.  There is so much to learn and it cannot be learned from the media alone. Yet the majority of people are left with only that sadly.

I'm a hard ass, I will admit it. I could never be a pacifist, and as Loretta put it, when my children came along I had no question I could slaughter anyone who threatened them. 

Here's what I know....I know that it is not just those 19 men who flew planes into our towers that day, nor is it just Osama Bin Laden we need to pursuing. I know that millions of radical Muslims danced in the streets in a multitude of nations all over this world rejoicing the attack. That mentality has to change, that is what is going to change. And it can be the easy way or it can be the hard way. But it is going to change just as surely as a tadpole drops his tail to become a frog. Evolution my friends that is what is happening and it isn't going to stop because some politician says he/she can stop it.

Those holding oil want to play in the world economy and reap the benefits of having international trade partners, then they have to play by the buyers rules plain and simple. It's a basic economic lesson in reality.  After all no one buys sand do they?

It is absurd the think that oil producing nations can sell us oil and then use those funds to destroy us. Not gonna happen....as we are seeing.

~Ami

xoxox

Ps I am going to try to post a post from a political board from the first year of our invasion into Iraq. There were thousands of debates on line and I tried to save the most thoughted of posts that had good information and food for thought. (And could be backed up with facts.) This one is one of the best, and though it has taken longer than this fellow predicted (thanks to Iranian and Syrian terrorists crossing Iraq's border) it is still the direction we are heading.

I love you guys, nor do I care that our opinions do not always match, I respect them all and love reading them, never mistake that. =)

Oh and Neecie, your thoughts on Ingrid Betancourt....I agree with you, I wonder if I could hold out. I watch Schindler's List at least once a year just to remind me that people can do amazing things to survive. I have often wondered if I could have survived the Polish ghettos or the concentration camps. I hope we never have to know.    note to self: Add Ralph's son to the prayer list.