Topic : How Porn Has Hurt Our Relationship

Denial is very useful. When I got married, I denied the fact that because I only knew him a few weeks, that I  could have been so wrong - I denied that he was neglecting me so soon - I denied that his porn use was a problem - I denied that his never being home was because he liked to work so much......etc etc. Why do we deny? Because the truth is not going to be something we are prepared or willing to want to look at.

 

My husband did a very good job at denying too. He denied I wasn't happy - he denied that he had a problem with intimacy - but he also lied. Denying and lying are two different animals with different stripes. Lying is knowingly witholding a truth - denial is what we do when we don't know what to do, if that makes sense.

 

Now that I am separated making moves towards divorce, I find myself going into denial again. Every fibre of my being feels responsible for the demise of this marriage making it difficult to cut him out of my life completely and financially. (He is dependant on me).  Guilt goes hand in hand with denial, I believe. If we feel guilty , responsible for hurting someone, we will fall victim to self denial. Self denial is when we don't believe what we feel is real. Denial is a useful tool when we are in the throes of chaos, but it is really the wise person that can see between what is denial and what is guilt.We deny because we don't want to be right; or we have been wrong so many times. We don't trust our judgement.

 

And you are right, one mans truth is another man's poison. Its just the way it is. It takes 2 make a relationship work; the same 2 to watch it crumble. But it is no use trying to change someone elses truth, if we can't stand strong in our own. I always felt it takes a tough person to stick it out in destructive relationships, but now I am confident that it takes a tough person to leave one.

 

 

Denial is either knowing what's true and pretending it isn't, or pretending that the truth doesn't exist. Lying is done in two ways- by comission or omission. Omission is not saying the truth when the truth needs to be told, and comission is deliberately lying about something. My ex did both. I was in denial about the truth of who he was and what he was, but I knew it. I didn't pretend it didn't exist. I knew it did, but I attributed it to other factors. That's what I was in denial about. That it was what it really was.

 My brother and sister-in-law's marriage is in trouble, mostly due to my SIL's controlling, OCD personality. She's always been that way, but it has become worse. My brother is doing nothing about it other than to become unhappy, miserable, and mean. My SIL blames the unhappiness in the marriage on him, and has said to me that if he (my brother) would just stop being so mean and miserable, that everything would be fine. She is in complete denial about how her actions and ways of dealing with life have either been a causation or contributor to it. Last year I gave her my copy of Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue after she had bitterly complained of the state of her marriage. I said that perhaps her relationship needed a hero, and that she could be that hero if she chose to be. When I gave her the book, she looked at the title and said, "Do you think that I need to read this? I'm not doing anything to cause our problems, why should I read that?" I again said that she could start to effect a positive change in her marriage if she chose, and that it wasn't my place to say who is at fault or what was wrong. That finding fault and blaming were not going to help and that if she wanted to effect change, she could, by her actions and behaviors regarding the unhappiness. She looked offended and said nothing more. Since that time, she has said nothing about the book. Just a few weeks ago, I went to my niece's soccer game, and in the course of a conversation with my SIL, she related how a good friend of hers was going through a divorce, and was availing herself of counseling to deal with it. My SIL then said, "Talking about your past and your childhood to deal with things that are happening to you now is stupid. I don't care about what happened to me growing up" (she was raised by an abusive alcoholic mother and an ineffectual, passive father who enabled his wife's drinking). She then said that her childhood had nothing to do with who she is now. Talk about denial! She has the classic signs of being raised by an alcoholic. She carefully controls and organizes her existence to feel some sort of control over it, and has highly ritualized her family's life to give her a sense of normalcy. Once when I was there visiting and my niece took a bottle of hairspray off the shelf in the closet. She didn't replace it exactly where my SIL put it and when my SIL saw it on the shelf "out of place" she had a fit about it.

I watched my nieces last spring while my brother and SIL went to Chicago for the weekend. My nieces are 15 and 13 and it was the first time in their lives my SIL had left them for more than a few hours. My SIL was feeling frantic and guilt-ridden about leaving them for two days. On their way back she called my nieces and said that she and daddy were on their way home. The house was spotless, as my nieces had been away for most of the weekend at cheer practice, team practice or at friend's homes, and I slept on the couch in the basement, showered at home and ate all my meals out. My nieces had spent the night at friend's homes, so their beds hadn't been slept in. Even so, when my nieces knew that their parents were on their way home, they said to me that we all better clean the house so that mommy would be happy when she got home. When I asked my nieces what needed to be cleaned, they had no answer. There was nothing that needed cleaning or straightening, but they were worried about being yelled at for the house not being clean enough or for something that might be out of place, which would have set their mother off and make their lives hell while she ranted about it and acted miserable.  Unbelievable. But, that's how they live- in a constant state of worry and fear that their mother will be set off by even the slightest inconsistency. And my SIL is in denial about how this affects her husband and children. As long as her needs for "normalcy" are being met, that's all that matters. My brother has said to me that he will divorce her when the kids are grown and out. He has become disillusioned and disenchanted and miserable, and it has gotten to the point where he doesn't even try anymore. Any suggestions I have made to him regarding saving their relationship has fallen on deaf ears, since he has reached the point of no return- contempt for his spouse. He's just waiting it out now.  How sad that neither of them is willing to risk failing on behalf of their marriage- they're both just letting time and contempt take care of that detail. My SIL will be shocked and devastated when my brother leaves her. She will blame him for the destruction of the marriage- although they both will be guilty of that. My nieces will be devastated as well. They will do what grown kids will do when their parents divorce, seemingly "out of the blue,"- question the validity of their experiences with their parents. They will wonder if what they knew and thought was true,  really was true, or was just a big lie. My brother and SIL are both weak in their own ways. And neither one wants to be strong.

Omitting and committing something that later creates a "need" to lie can be resolved by a very simple procedure. Stop doing what it is that creates a "need" to lie or if its from the past, thats where I believe ommission (of the truth) happens a lot, if you think you are hiding something, speak to a professional first, see if they think it is an old guilt thing or a way to create a problem. Lying hurts people, pure and simple, right? Liars are also very poor in their confidences and think lying is a way to "spice" up their lives!

 

There are definately very personal reasons for each persons lies, but the feeling is the same for all of us. Our society is based on lies. Lying seems to require wit and intelligence. Whereas honesty is seen as passive and lazy. Our society is going in a wrong direction for the good of all and people really need to start stepping up to the plate in their honesties ? because people against people is not a good sign.

 

Then there are the crazies. Thats a problem too. How do we deal with a society that is based in narcissims? Very tough.

 

But we can do a great service by being honest, speaking honest, thinking honest thoughts, and acting it. I am starting to come to truly believe that we are responsible for what we attract into our lives or better, what we need to work out or work on. If the lesson is about guilt because in the past an action or thought was wrong, then do your best not to repeat what it is that we felt guilty about. Holding onto something done yesterday is not going to create movement today. Today is now another chance to work on it. If we are moving in a possitive direction, honest etc., albeit difficult, we will learn how to take care of ourselves, make good decisions, then whatever happens, we know that on the flip side of all misery, is joy.

 

Just like on the flip side of every joy is a misery. Ever changing, right? Be prepared for change but don't anticipate it. The moment is the lesson or gift.  The outcome is your grade. :)

 

Take care and good luck in everything. I have recently made yet another decision and it was strictly based on what I felt was protecting myself, even though it means not protecting someone else. I am trying to learn the art of self interest.  I think you SIL and non wanting to talk about her past is because it is just too difficult. It if was a joyful experience she would relish the idea to share it, don't you think? Fear makes people reclusive. Love and confidence in oneself brings one out. My ex didn't like to talk about much, really. I didn't want to fall into the typical stereotype of nagging, wining wife....so I didn't pursue conversations. But even when there was opportuity, it was not honored. It felt like  I was living with a stuffed animal. Cute but not real.

 

We want so bad for things to work out that shove aside morals. Not good. And I believe it all starts with being honest with ourselves and others. :)

and I appreciate your input. You are correct when you say that we do not serve ourselves and our loved ones and humanity well when we lie and deny. You are also correct when you say that lying and denying is the way of the world. And you are correct again when you say that, in a bid to self-preserve, that we would rather lie and deny than truth-tell. I have found that in general people hate the truth, even though they claim to want it and live in it. And that truth-tellers will be punished for their truth-telling. Truthfulness does not mean that you deliberately hurt someone by telling them the "truth" about themselves. I am talking about knowing and telling the truth about OURSELVES, being truthful about who we are and what we are about. Acknowledging our humanity and knowing ourselves well enough to know what our strengths and weaknesses are, and being truthful to ourselves about how our behaviors and actions affect the people we claim to love and care about. If the people around us are having a negative reaction to our behaviors and actions, that should be telling us something about ourselves. And, unless we or they are disordered in some way, such as narcissism, those reactions are clues to ourselves about ourselves. As Dr. Phil has said so many times, you can't change what you don't acknowledge. And it is not our job to tell anyone else what is "wrong" with them, unless they ask and really want to know. And even then, we risk rejection and displeasure.

 I am sure that my SIL's childhood was difficult and painful. I haven't yet met anyone who, in their past, hasn't been hurt or rejected or treated badly in some way by someone. Maybe I'm not hanging with the right crowd (LOL), but I haven't yet come across another human being who hasn't been hurt. There's been a variety of degrees of hurt and pain, and some people are either more resilient or have  good sources of support to lessen the severity of their hurt. For myself, I have had to be my own source of support for the most part. I have had to avail myself of professional help to deal with the hurts of my past, but in the process I learned how to deal with my pain and have learned much about myself and how to live with the vicissitudes of my life in a pro-active, healthy, honest way. I know there will never be a time in my life where everything will go my way. There never has been, and there never will be. I also know that all the people who have been in my life or who will be a part of it in the future are human, just like I am. Imperfect and who have suffered in their own unique but oh so common human ways. But I also know that there are people who abuse and cause pain to others and will use and manipulate the people in their lives to support their twisted viewpoints, and that I don't have to support them or be loyal to them.

For example, I recently ended a friendship of more than 18 years. This friend and I met when our kids were in school together in the early 90's. Her now-ex and my now-ex became good pals also. Her husband was an in-denial alcoholic who had issues with his mother, and who secretly hated women because of it. My ex was an in-denial narcissist and a porn/pot addict. My friend and I supported each other, and was there for each other, even after I moved to California. Two years before my husband and I divorced, she left her husband and filed for separation. I helped her as much as I could from a distance, and when my marriage crumbled she was there for me, sometimes we talked on the phone two or three times a day. After I moved back to Michigan, and we became more connected again due to my physical proximity, I found out that she had not done well for herself in the divorce, because she can be passive. It's a component of her personality. I did well in mine, because I fought for myself. She became jealous of my "good fortune" and came to expect me to bail her out of her misfortune. She would whine about how she would "never have a house" like I did (she lives in an apartment with her 19 yr old son and 22 year old daughter who contribute nothing to the running of her household) and that she would "never be able to get a decent car" because she declared bankruptcy after the divorce. Things came to head last October when, on her way to visit me, her car broke down on the freeway in Detroit. I drove to where she was and picked her up, and asked her what she planned to do about her car. She said that her son-in-law was going to rent a towbar and tow it home (60 miles away) but that he couldn't get there until Monday (this happened on a Friday night.) I said that she couldn't leave her car on the shoulder that long, that someone would steal it. I asked if her insurance had road service (it did.) I then suggested that she call for service, get the car towed to a safer place, so it wouldn't be stolen. She said nothing. I learned later that what she wanted was for me to pay to have her car towed home, although at the time she never asked me to. So, the car did end up being stolen, and I drove her part way home, and her son drove the rest of the way to pick her up. I didn't hear from her for 10 months. My calls to her were unreturned. She called me in late August and basically said that I had allowed her car to be stolen because I didn't do the right thing, which was offer to pay to have her car towed home. She then said that I had been treating her like a "charity case" and that she felt uncomfortable around me. She said that I had "changed" (she was right about that) and that, in the past, she had done plenty for me. I was shocked. I haven't spoken to her since, and I have had to let the friendship go because of it. To her, I am a "have" and she is a "have-not" and I was supposed to now equalize the "imbalance" in in our friendship by supporting her financially and by "paying her back" for what she did for me in the past, which was having me and my kids over for dinner when we lived in the same town. I did not think that I had to "pay her back" for that, I believed that it was part and parcel of our friendship, and I that I gave as good as I got by helping her out and supporting her in many ways that had nothing to do with money. I do not "scorekeep" when it comes to what my friends have "done" for me or me for them. But, she does, and felt that I was not doing right by her after my "good fortune." Her reality and mine no longer matched, and so I let her go. It was painful, but necessary. I wish her well and hope that she can find happiness and success in her life. Although I think she will continue to be unhappy, because she expects others to provide her with the means to be happy. And that's not my job. But, such is life. Take care, kimi. Find your happiness, as I am finding mine.

Hi Quantz! Very good post and sharing. Thanks.

 

As humans, we all suffer. Day one may be great, day 2 may suck, day 3 may be boring, day 4 may be chaotic, day 6 may be exciting, etc. We all have these days. Some as you said, carry their loads and then look for someone or something to carry it for them!!! When all we really need to do , is put the darn thing down.

 

Without a control mechanism as to how OTHER people will treat us on any given day, we are vulnerable to blows. The best approach when someone throws something at us is to move aside. But a knee jerk reaction is to defend, feel attacked, get scared, fight force with force. But this takes much time and  patience to learn. It is the wise person that can look at adversity as an opportunity to see how far we've come, how much we've learned. If both can walk away unscathed, then we have done well.!  If one person comes out harmed, there are no winners.

 

So the best approach to your friends lack of common sense, triggered something in  you that made you feel guilty and responsible and unsuccessful. YOur friend is still upset and both are still carrying it.  Like me and my husband. I will carry my guilt until I am ready to put it down. I will feel responsible for my step fathers (kind of) sexual comment until I do not feel responsible somehow. When we are young we are trained in how we are going to think about things, life, ourselves. I believe therapy should start early for all children because it may prevent a long life of not understanding how come some people 'SEEM TO HAVE ALL THE LUCK WHILE OTHERS ARE CRAWLING IN THE STREETS". The reason for both is because that is our opportunity to work our way out or learn compassion and share the wealth.  Both lessons will be hard....depending on what one is having to work through, or give away. :)

 

I believe as much as we may like someone, maybe for many years, the time comes when that relationship is no longer significant for us and it changes. If we try to make it what it WAS, we will never be satisfied; its important to really see things AS THEY ARE not as we would want them to be, right?  It is a journey of self exploration and sometimes it is easier to not to pay attention to the road signs; but then we musent ? be surprised when we come upon a place where we don't recognize.

 

Back to being truthful. I totally agree that we should not vomit our judgements on others but it is difficult because what we don't understand, we fear and want to change which is where reality gets muddied. If we are doing something and it feels good, right for the all, even if it is difficult, like disciplining a child, or criticizing someone so that they see it from our standpoint. A student of mine has a learning disabilty I believe - she is an awsome artist - but scattered. At work she creates probelms for herself due to this so one day I felt the frustration that she must feel and sat down with her for about an hour  and painstakengly tried to help her with this. She thanked me and I believe it made a big impact on her. Was it difficult for me to say? Hell yes. Was it difficult for her to hear? Hell yeah. But are we both moving forward? Hell yeah.

 

The outcome should be a possitive but there are those that do not want to be honest; criticized if you may.....my ex and your friend. What would be the best approach for this???? Step away.

 

Take care. I'll be back in a few days.

 

Thanks so much, kimi, for your perspective. I appreciate it. You always give me something to think about, analyze, and apply if needed. I do not feel guilty about ending my 18 year friendship, just like I do not feel guilt about getting out of my marriage. Both were necessary, because both were dysfunctional. I am no longer willing to remain in any type of dysfunctional relationship, no matter how long it's been part of my life or how much the other person "did" for me. It's just not worth it. That's one part of me that has "changed." I am the loyal, faithful type, always have been, always will be. But, I let those attributes trap me sometimes. It is my greatest strength and also my greatest weakness. It's one of the things I realized about myself,and also realized that I wasn't being faithful and loyal to myself by allowing dysfunctional people to take advantage of that trait. Lesson learned. Guilt can be a useful emotion IF it is used to reflect and analyze how others are being damaged by our behaviors and actions. Unnecessary guilt, blaming ourselves for others' actions and behaviors or for situations and events out of our control, is the "bad" kind.

In recent conversations with my 23 and 28 yr old sons, they again reiterated that the way their father acted and behaved and treated them was his fault, not mine or theirs. They know that he is disordered, selfish and self-centered. They have learned that who he is isn't who they are or want to be. My parenting is appreciated and valued by them, and they now know the difference between good parenting and bad. They have come through their crises of growing up, and even though those crises were made more difficult by their father, they know that their lessons have been learned and applied in positive ways. They will not allow their father's dysfunctions to rule and control their lives. Thank God. My relationship with my 20 yr old daughter is still rocky and sometimes painful, but that is because she is still in contact with her father, and he has used her to hurt me. She wants to have a relationship with him, but doesn't yet fully realize the head games he is playing, and goes along with it because that is the price she must pay for his involvement with her. I hope that one day she will stop paying his price, but until then I will just keep loving her and being there for her, even though it is painful at times for me. I do not feel guilty about that, because I did not cause it or perpetuate it. He is who he is, and I am who I am, and I can't control him, or my daughter. Only myself.

Hi I am new to this board. I am 30 years old, married with 3 children. I  need some advice and some guidance about my husband looking at porn.  About a year ago I found that my husband was looking at porn. When I confronted him about it, he used the most popular phrase"all guys do it". I asked to him to promise me that he would'nt look at again. He promised he would'nt.  Well I've caught him a couple of other times since. The last time was about a month ago, and I am having a difficult time forgetting about. Honestly its all I think about and I hate that I'm obsessing  about it. It's driving me crazy!  I think the reason why is because the arguement we had over it.  I asked him the reason why he looks at it he says he thinks its funny,and he admitted that it does turn him on.  I replied "well i hope you had fun jerking off to it"(excuse my phrase,but I was really upset and I don't know if he did or not) His reply was "its not like you were gonna have sex with me".  He goes on to say that it  even if I was the hottest woman on the planet he would still want to look at it and that I need to get some self esteem and that I'm over reactting. Also he says it gives him some different  postion ideas.  He compares it to me smoking. He doesn't like that I smoke. I don't like that he looks at porn. Thats how he sees it.  A couple of days later I thought he was looking at it again. He swore on our childrens lives he wasn't and I do believe he wasn't. But I asked him to swear on our childrens life that he would'nt look at porn. He wouldn't do it.   Since then I check to see if  he's been looking at porn.  I'm not good with computers so I don't know if he's been smarter about hiding it,cause the last time he said he thought he deleted the computer's history so I wouldn't find out.  I  think that I have pretty good self esteem, I'm attractive and I think look pretty good for having 3 kids. I'm not saying there aren't  parts of my body  I wish looked better,but overall I think I look nice.  The times that I found out about him looking at porn it hurt me. There are so many feelings that i felt and it was overwhelming.  I've told him when he looks at porn it  makes me feel inadequate,less of a woman ,betrayed, lied to by omission and yes my self esteem and self worth is affected by it. It makes me feel that I'm a failure as a wife. That last sentence was really hard to write. When I married this man, I thought I would be enough for him, that he wouldn't have/need to look at porn and pictures of  naked women. He pretty much said that I wasn't. Hence the hottest  women in the world comment.  I just feel like he's not the man I thought I was marryied to.  I think we have a pretty good sex life(he says he's happy with it). I'm am not a prude. I'm up for just about anything.  I just don't think you should have to watch other people having sex to get turned on or to spice things up. There are many things you can do. Just the TWO of you. Thats my opinion.  I  would really like some advice on how I can get over the way I feel. I haven't brought this up to him since the last time I found out. I'm sure he'll just roll his eyes and say "your bringing that up".  He can be really insentive about the way I feel and dismiss it like I'm making to much of it.            

Hi,

If you knew he was like this from the beginning, or not ignorant to it, you wouldn't have barked up the wrong tree. Its just harder for you now, because it will always be unsettling to you. You have told him how you feel, and its pretty clear how he feels about it too. You just dont see eye to eye. I believe your right about them not being satisfied even if they had the sexiest woman on the planet. I know they have thought about this themselves. They seem to think that that is their conclusion, not being able to resist the urge to continually sample more, regardless of how good the person they are with is. They are more interested in sexual experiences, fantasizing, and the more experiences and variety, obviously thats the best way to live that out. Thats a stark contrast to a faithful, one on one experience and the desire to live out your fantasies between each other. Its not realistic for you to think of yourself as a failure when you are with someone like him. Although, alot of us woman immediatley start feeling down because of our real desires to be everything for someone.

I just feel like he's not the man I thought I was marryied to.  I think we have a pretty good sex life(he says he's happy with it).

Hes not the person you let yourself think of him to be. That was a mistake, but now you know differently. Maybe there is something in the fact that they may just like looking, and there is nothing more to it. Maybe you have to consider how seriously he takes this, and how often it is. Theres probably never going to be an arrangement where you live vicariously once a month and have fun together with it. So you'll never be able to relax and trust him.

I just don't think you should have to watch other people having sex to get turned on or to spice things up. There are many things you can do. Just the TWO of you. Thats my opinion.

You know now that he doesent think that way though.

He can be really insentive about the way I feel and dismiss it like I'm making to much of it.

You know, you are a woman with needs, and he may be shocked one day when you leave him for someone else. Theres no point in you throwing away truly romantic opportunites that are offered to you. If your emotionally attracted to another guy in the future, why would you give that up?. You might have to say to him, you have to see this person. I know these guys would be hurt, but they would have to admit that at least its an opportunity for them to start doing what they drool about for real.

I understand you are very upset and confused and feel slighted and rejected and betrayed; I also understand that your body has changed due to having children, I am sure his body has also changed in some way. This is the part of life that we all have a hard time grappling with. But that being said, I am sure you have/had a good level of esteem and think your body as beautiful, I am sure it is - but that is exactly the reason why they look at porn. They like seeing beautiful bodies or other bodies. When a person watches porn they are taking the image/fantasy of what they are looking at and mentally putting themselves in the positions that he says he is making him want to try it with you, right?

 

The tricky part in all of this is --------------------------when he said to you "well' you weren't going to give me sex" that is your opportunity to tell him that unfortunately you need a reason to want to have sex with him; that he has to do something, say something, anything, that leads you feel esteemed with him........this has nothing to do with self esteem, its having the "confidence" within the relationship. Thats where the decline is creating the problem, right?

 

Due to our rationalizations, we don't know if we have a leg to stand on when it comes to this porn because it has been brainwashed into the minds of men that it is ok and healthy for them and women have been brainwashed that it is about them as sexual beings. Porns motivator is addiction that occurs when there is a need - instead of possibly reaching out - in this case, when he feels horney, I am sure it is just conveniently easier for him to watch porn and do his thing, versus taking the time to talk and woo you. It sounds like you both have taken each other for granted and forgot how to ask for what you want.

 

I left my husband due to his porn use (and other things of course) but the porn use was a thorn in my side for about 5 years. I investigated bills, peeked through a door, went through his drawers to find videos, bringing my level of respect to a sheer cockroach level. He didn't stop and I was a lunatic woman walking around like a zombie. Unfortunately, you need to get a backbone and when he throws a dig like "if you would just have sex with me I wouldn't need to do this, kind of thing......" then you need to throw it back and ask him what is it that he really wants and needs from you. You might find he is lonely and missing you terribly.

 

People have different parts to their personalities and we form them as we go...shaping and shifting our positions to get it right or better the next time. You can't possibly know how someone is going to be in a year, he did change, so did you. And thats a good thing. He is falling into the typical husband/father role. You are falling into the wife/mother role. It is common and necessary. His looking at porn and your smoking are individual choices and also selective addictions. I would say, work on your smoking, slowing it down to a stop at some point, maybe he'll see his porn use as an addiction too. But you can't expect to know when a person is reaching for healthy alternitives while you too are not. Thats not how it works. YOu need to be able to recognize health in yourself first, then you can see this more clearly.

 

I hope this helped a little.

Nearly five years ago, my husband went back into therapy for his porn addiction. And I believed he had been porn and addiction free all this time. I recently found, i was wrong and he had been having relapses of his addiction for some time. And the worst of it hit just a few weeks ago. Today he went back to therapy and I am holding my breath hoping this is the end of it and  believing it most likely won't be. As for myself, my depression has hit an all time low. It had begun long before i knew he was using again and the knowledge of his use has deepened it further. I had decided I needed to hang on until I had finished up a few tasks at hand, and those were completed yesterday. It is frightening to know I am headed down a very life ending path. I do not want to die but I do not want to live this life. I am lonely and sad and hold little hope for happiness in the future. I have attempted to go to counseling and so far I have not found it is helping. I am on some anti depression meds but sometimes I feel they help but often I do not. I can't spend my days doing this as I have in the past. It is just too painful at this point.