Topic : Homosexuality Debate and Discussion

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Created on : Sunday, March 18, 2007, 12:35:17 pm
Author : penny_lady
This is a place to talk/debate about homosexuality in general. Not just in the context of Gay Marriage, although that topic is welcomed here.

What do you think about homosexuality?

Sin, not a sin? Choice, not a choice? Should they be allowed to marry or not? Gays in the military or not? Is sexuality in neat categories or is it a spectrum? Should genetics be used in the future, if possible, to change a person's sexuality? Bisexuality, a trend, an actual sexual orientation, or just confusion?

Have an interesting article on homosexuality? Post it!


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April 25, 2007, 6:30 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: loretta24

Just because something is consider LAW doesn't always make it right.  Consider that at one time it was the law that blacks and whites could not marry or one that was removed from the books not that long ago that prohibited Native Americans from entering the city of Boston.  One of my personal favorites, women could not vote or the poll tax which kept the poor and minorities from being able to vote. 

 

All of these were laws and they were all wrong.  Sometimes laws are wrong and are discriminatory. 

 

And we, the people don't vote for laws, our elected officials do and very often those same elected officials promise one thing and deliver something else.  Often those who pledge to represent us just don't.  In my state, even though a bill which would legalize same sex marriage will most likely be able to pass in both houses, my governor has pledged to use the veto power.  It is our system, only one we have and very often it is just plain wrong.

There was a law in Missouri that it was legal to kill Mormons!!! The law is not always right, and that is the beauty of this kind of government....it can be corrected.

Jim Crow laws are some of the most disgusting laws ever made.


 
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April 25, 2007, 7:43 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Cheryl, I hope you never take any of this personally...it's not on my part anyway...just how I talk on boards like this. I am a big fan of asking questions. I do it to myself CONSTANTLY...It's scary to question your deepest beliefs...see if they can stand up to even your own tests. I have opened scary doors because I wanted to confront the potential monster inside. I remember very clearly the day I decided to really ask "Why is it not ok to have sex with children?" because nothing to me is self evident, I want grounded reasons for everything I believe...that conversation I had with myself on that topic was uncomfortable, scary and sickening, but I walked away with such confidence in my reasons behind my beliefs and I am forever glad I did it, and I do it all the time still.

I give others I chat with, debate with the same respect and direct attitude I give myself. I wouldn't expect anything less from those who respect me.
 
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April 26, 2007, 5:27 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: loretta24

It is true that the piece of paper that is my marriage license means very little to me but currently that paper carries power.  The power to help provide by means of Soc. Sec. for my children and spouse, the power to make important decisions for my spouse if necessary. 

 

Here is an example:  married couple, one spouse in intensive care in hospital, who without question gets to be with their spouse and make decisions?  The spouse of course as it should be.  I know that out of every one on this planet my husband is the only person I would trust in that situation. 

 

Now the same deal but with a gay couple and family has not accepted the fact that their loved one is gay.  They can legally bar the "spouse" in this case and very often the spouse has no power what's so ever.  Now I know that they can get legal documents drawn up but what if they, like many other couples haven't gotten around to it.  If they were able to get a marriage license it wouldn't be an issue.

 

I don't care about my marriage license emotionally and I don't need it to keep me with my spouse but I do care about the benefits that it provides us.  I just don't think it is fair or just to deny another couple who want to commit to share their lives together as we did, the same.

Suze Ormon is a well known financial adviser. I believe she is gay. She and her long-term partner have each acquired a great deal of wealth. When one of them dies, they will not be able to protect the money from enormous taxes and pass it to each other as a married couple could. Tax and estate laws work in the benefit of surviving spouses. marriage is not simply a religious commitment. It carries implication that extend to the legal and financial.
 
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April 26, 2007, 5:59 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: julie1418

Suze Ormon is a well known financial adviser. I believe she is gay. She and her long-term partner have each acquired a great deal of wealth. When one of them dies, they will not be able to protect the money from enormous taxes and pass it to each other as a married couple could. Tax and estate laws work in the benefit of surviving spouses. marriage is not simply a religious commitment. It carries implication that extend to the legal and financial.
I've oftened wondered if part of the reason that the political powers that be on the Federal level are so opposed is because of the financial implications.  More people to pay SS to or as you pointed out, the loss of estate tax.  I'm not sure which is worse financial reasons or religious reasons.
 
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April 26, 2007, 6:22 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: julie1418

Suze Ormon is a well known financial adviser. I believe she is gay. She and her long-term partner have each acquired a great deal of wealth. When one of them dies, they will not be able to protect the money from enormous taxes and pass it to each other as a married couple could. Tax and estate laws work in the benefit of surviving spouses. marriage is not simply a religious commitment. It carries implication that extend to the legal and financial.
That really makes me sad. 
 
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April 26, 2007, 6:29 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: loretta24

I've oftened wondered if part of the reason that the political powers that be on the Federal level are so opposed is because of the financial implications.  More people to pay SS to or as you pointed out, the loss of estate tax.  I'm not sure which is worse financial reasons or religious reasons.
I suspect the main motivation is religious...but the finances are a consideration.
 
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April 27, 2007, 10:49 am PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: julie1418

There are tax and estate laws that are specific to MARRIED people. Have you ever done estate planning? There is no will in the world that can make the benefits for gay couples EQUAL  to those of married couples.
Exactly. Marriage carries some very specific and specialized benefits.
 
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April 27, 2007, 11:01 am PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: loretta24

Again, I will point out that our laws have not always been fair or just.  There have been many cases in the history of our nation where our laws have been based upon bigotry, hate and prejudice.  It often takes time and a great deal of effort to change these laws and we look back at those laws with disdain. 

 

The suffragettes were once considered a bunch of whiny, loud mouthed women who needed to be kept in their place and for those women I am eternally grateful.  It took the National Guard to enable a group of African American children to attend the same school as white children.  Civil rights leaders, election workers and others who worked toward equality for African Americans were killed in their efforts to change laws. 

 

I guess the way I look at it is that the more empathy I can show to my fellow humans helps me to be a better citizen of this planet, it helps me be a better mom to my children.  For anyone that feels it is okay to discriminate against gay couples and that it does not harm them, I would ask have you ever spoken with a gay couple and heard their views and feelings.  Have you ever seen the pain in their eyes when they describe their struggle for acceptance?  Have you ever had a friend tell you that they are gay and terrified that they will be rejected by their family because of religious reasons?  I have experienced these things and let me tell you, empathy is a very powerful emotion. 

This is why I abhor tradition for the sake of tradition.  It absolves people of thinking...they can just say  "Well, that's the way it's been for a long time,  so that's good enough for me!"

That is why I said that NOTHING is self evident to me. FOR ME it's important to have solid reasons for pretty much anything I believe...and that is why I am always open to new information.

With so many people opposed to gay marriage I am still holding out for a reason why, a valid one and I have yet to hear it. I used to be against gay married (about 4 years ago) and I would debate my husband for hours about this...I finally sat down with a piece of paper, wrote down my reasons for being opposed and then tried to write WHY those reasons should be law. And not one of them stood the test.

My own thoughts couldn't pass my OWN test.  So I abandoned those thoughts as flawed.

Once I got it through my head that my religion wasn't supposed to be the law. That the ETHICAL thing to do is to vote for things that are FAIR despite my personal disgust (I was mixed up about homosexuality a lot....I was in partial denial of my own sexuality, I was trying to please my daddy....a lot of psychological bull really...) with them.  My husband made the point very clear when he explained it this way to me (this is pretty much word for word): "I find male on male anal sex to be the most disgusting sex act I can imagine, but I will be the first one in line to defend their right to do it."

That is when it really sunk in. Laws shouldn't reflect MY personal beliefs, they should reflect what is best, fairest and most ethical for society as a whole. (Trust me, you guys do not want some of my personal ideas to be made into law...LOL, if it were that way kids wouldn't be allowed to go to church!)
 
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April 27, 2007, 11:25 am PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: penny_lady

Cheryl...YOUR RELIGION SHOULDN'T BE LAW.

That right there should be enough for you to stop opposing gay marriage. I know you are smart enough to GET THIS.

People aren't raking you over the coals...people are upset at this kind of HARM against their fellow human beings.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE you should take our opinions into consideration.
What bothers me about this is this is sooooooo totally an example of lack of empathy.

Cheryl, if someone ever tried to do something to take away YOUR civil rights, you better believe I'd be the first one there to protect you. Even if it's something I don't PERSONALLY agree with.
 
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April 27, 2007, 12:13 pm PDT

***Homosexuality***

Quote From: penny_lady

What bothers me about this is this is sooooooo totally an example of lack of empathy.

Cheryl, if someone ever tried to do something to take away YOUR civil rights, you better believe I'd be the first one there to protect you. Even if it's something I don't PERSONALLY agree with.

I think that I have become a more empathetic person in many ways since I had my children.  I have a tendency to think things like "what if that was my child".  How would I want them to be treated?

 

In regards to civil rights, there was a case recently where a few college kids did something really stupid like set fire to a flag hanging on their building.  My first feeling was one of anger because I do respect what the flag stands for.  Then I read that they had been arrested, can't remember the exact charges and I was angry about that.  You see, while the burning of the flag really ticks me off, arresting the fools responsible for it angered me more.  The charges were eventually dropped.  Even though I strongly disagreed with what they did, I support their right to behave like fools. 

 

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