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Topic : 04/12 Twin Tug of War

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Created on : Friday, April 06, 2007, 11:39:40 am
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Allison Quets made headlines around the world when she allegedly kidnapped her 17-month-old twins across the border into Canada this past Christmas. She had given them up for adoption, but did she do so under duress? She now says she suffered from a pregnancy disease called hyperemesis that left her malnourished and sleep deprived to the point of complete exhaustion. See an exclusive interview with Allison from behind bars where she awaits trial on two counts of international parental kidnapping, with a possible sentence of three years behind bars. Then, look inside the life of a woman who is only three-and-a-half months pregnant and so sick with hyperemesis she spends most of her day on the bathroom floor. Plus, find out what all women need to know about hyperemesis: How you get it, how to know you have it, and whether it could kill you or your unborn child. Join the discussion.

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April 17, 2007, 12:14 pm PDT

04/12 Twin Tug of War

Quote From: busyparents

 If you are going to make a statement about this situation - make sure you are accurate in your facts!!!!!!!!!! ALLISON DID NOT FORGE DOCUMENTS. SHE HAD THE BABIES' BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND PROBABLY THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY CARDS IF THEY WERE APPLIED FOR AT BIRTH. She obtained the passports legally - you can read this in the reports about her situation. You will see she did not lie to the border agents and traveled under her own name. That is not dishonest behavior. You sound like you have decided she is guilty and you don't even know the details. Read the stories and info out there and make informed statements, please! I'm assuming you must be friends with the Needhsams to say such unfounded remarks.

You make these comments about her instability or disturbed affect but you give no reason for it. She was calm and composed but anxious. Good grief - do you see that this woman has been thru hell for the last few years! Give her a break here. She was not of the right mind at the time of the signing to make such a decision. That was over a year ago. Should she have been caring for the babies at that time - maybe not - but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to take them forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you read that she said no immediately? Why would anyone keep her kids - that is cruel and causes irreparable harm to the kids. Where is your heart? Have one?

Kidnapping is fundamentally dishonest ~ that one tends to hold true across the various cultures ~ I don't know if you've noticed that.  I don't care how she did it.

 

And, if you didn't find her behavior disturbing ~ disturbing as in would not trust with kids until an exhaustive psychological evaluation is made kind of disturbing, well, there's not really anyplace we can go together with that.

 

You're obviously very worked up about this right now.  Just because I'm not doesn't mean I have no heart.  I just don't want to see the kids go to what might be an unsafe place ~ and yes, I'm more concerned about them than I am about her.

 

I didn't realize that we could print in bold and in red here ~ I'll have to remember that.

 

 

 
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April 17, 2007, 12:30 pm PDT

What did Allison do?

Quote From: gwarrior6

Wow, youre really thinking with your uterus today!  And hating on me, i can see...LOL!

 

If you look at my previous posts, I was alluding to the poster who was emphasizing that HG is NOT a mental illness, which it's not.  I was offering different suggestions as to HOW a woman with this illness could do what she did.  The show was highlighting women with HG and the focus was on this woman who had it AND did this very rash thing.  That's NOT typical with women with HG.  She looked unstable, and not every woman who has this disease IS unstable, so other viewers could get the wrong idea about this disease.

 

My point IS, there are other ways of getting your kids back than just taking them.  She could have sued for custody.  She could have sued the adoption agency.  She could have done a myriad of things other than what she did.  Like Dr P said on the show, "Aren't all bets off when you go and take the kids"?  That wasn't a rational decision.

 

We're all entitled to our opinion.  This board is rife with women who support Allison 100%.  She's got a lot of support already.  I'm trying to think about this from another point of view-the kids.  It's in their best interest to be in a stable environment, and if the mom isn't stable, she should get treatment and get them back.

 

 

 I agree, this was not a rational action. But we can't assume she did not sue for custody. She filed a civil suit - remember the court sealed it because it had a lot of personal facts the Needhams and adoption attorneys did not want out there. If you can't get a judge to be fair on a custody suit, it is harder to win a related suit. She did many avenues and I'm sure her attorneys advised her of how to go about this - she followed their advice. I don't think we can just assume she sat around doing nothing the last year and a half. The media will not likely tell all that she has done to get them back but it's obvious that she has spent a ton of money on the process - trying to go about it the right way. It sure seems like she was getting no where - losing visitation and the court case is still dragging on. Not sure what I would do in her shoes but I'm sure I would be extremely frustrated and feeling quite scared since the longer this drags out, the greater the chance they will say the kids should just stay. That is unfair, and I'm sure she can see that more clearly than anyone. I am hesitant to judge her as unstable because I really bet she is a lot different when not confined to a jail cell while her life is totally out of control. That would make anyone a bit unstable. Don't you think?
 
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April 17, 2007, 1:03 pm PDT

Clarification

Quote From: gwarrior6

I was merely defending someone who was getting a lot of flack for their post, WITH FACTS!  Not a lot of judgment there.

 

FACT:  The mother is in prison, right or wrong, its a fact.  Who is going to care for these kids?  Let's rip them out of the arms of the only caregivers they've ever known, and throw them in foster care...how irrational is that?

 

FACT:  The mother took those children into Canada, and definitely across MANY state lines.  Do YOU think that exhibits someone with good judgment?  I think that if all you say about the wicked adoption agencies is true, I would have sued the hell out of all of them, not loaded up the car and took off!

 

FACT:  Judgment is a necessary survival mechanism.  Without it, you could do something profoundly stupid.  There are elements that impact judgment, like illness.  Professionals use judgment all the time.  By going on this board, you are automatically "judging" by stating your opinion, so don't give ME flack by "judging' me!

Fact - yes the mother is in prison but hopefully not for long. I would never suggest taking them to  foster care unless there is reason to be concerned about the Needhams. The verdict is still out there - we don't  have any facts there to work with. Anyone know about the other child they have?  I am just  trying to discourage people from thinking that it is ok to just take them away because she was ill.

Fact - she did take them to Canada. Before you assume though that she did not take legal action, let's look into that. I know she filed a civil suit against them and a custody suit. She was trying. They sealed the suit - why - no one involved wants people to know what happened. Shouldn't the 911 tape show Allison was not taking voluntary and confident actions?

Seems like after that, and her poor physical condition, they would have thrown out the case. Seems suspicious, doesn't it? Looking at the whole picture - they didn't give the kids back fast, made the trial last for a long time, then ruled against her, sealed her civil suit, denied her visits, etc. Doesn't seem like she was finding success by going through the 'correct' methods. That doesn't mean it is ok to ignore a law, but as her attorney said - she did not have criminal intent in her actions.

Anyone read anything on the investigation into baby 'selling' and human trafficking? The UN was investigating the US for this issue. I wonder how hard it is to win a battle against money like that - adoption is a billion dollar biz. She is fighting not just against the Needhams but against the whole group. I bet they don't want her to win. I am sure someone on here can post a link on that. I don't have one handy.

Fact - she did not make a great decision most likely by going to Canada. However, if she had not, we would not have found out about this case in the media. She may have lost them and no one would have ever known. Maybe that will turn out to be a good idea in the end. Who knows.

When it comes to judgment, I think you have to differentiate between an act of impulse - which is clearly not evidence of one's real judgment and a decision that follows logical thinking and analysis. She said she decided last minute.
Maybe she took steps in the months before when she probably was feeling scared, but she obviously did not plan it out or she would not have been caught so fast. She would not have traveled under her own name and used legal passports, etc, that are trackable.

We can't judge her sense of judgment by this one act. If you look back - she had enough money to spend about a half million on legal fees. She is selling her house. She must have pretty good judgment to keep a job for 20 years and have that kind of money. We all do things we later feel were not a good choice - though they seemed it at the moment it occurred. We have to look at the whole picture.


You are right - stating opinions can imply judging, but I do think we need to be careful that we don't judge someone without knowing the whole situation.
 
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April 17, 2007, 1:32 pm PDT

Multiple factors...

Quote From: busyparents

 I agree, this was not a rational action. But we can't assume she did not sue for custody. She filed a civil suit - remember the court sealed it because it had a lot of personal facts the Needhams and adoption attorneys did not want out there. If you can't get a judge to be fair on a custody suit, it is harder to win a related suit. She did many avenues and I'm sure her attorneys advised her of how to go about this - she followed their advice. I don't think we can just assume she sat around doing nothing the last year and a half. The media will not likely tell all that she has done to get them back but it's obvious that she has spent a ton of money on the process - trying to go about it the right way. It sure seems like she was getting no where - losing visitation and the court case is still dragging on. Not sure what I would do in her shoes but I'm sure I would be extremely frustrated and feeling quite scared since the longer this drags out, the greater the chance they will say the kids should just stay. That is unfair, and I'm sure she can see that more clearly than anyone. I am hesitant to judge her as unstable because I really bet she is a lot different when not confined to a jail cell while her life is totally out of control. That would make anyone a bit unstable. Don't you think?

Well, i think that there are other judges that can hear the case and decide whether or not she signed the documents under duress and coercion.  If she filed a civil suit, that's different from a custody suit.  I didn't hear anyone mention a custody suit at all. 

 

We can't assume that she DID file a custody suit either.  Maybe all she filed is a civil suit, but that's for $$ compensation, not for physical custody.  We can't assume she exhausted all facets of legally obtaining her children.  What I think happened is that she didn't KNOW HOW to go about the process and was so physically depleted from the HG and other related illness that she might NOT have even listened to their high priced advice. 

 

How is it obvious that she "has spent a ton of money on the process"?  I must have missed that part.  Unless you mean the civil suit and adoption process in and of itself.  Even then, you can find a cheaper attorney over the one that advertises on billboards.  Price doesn't always determine quality, either.

 

Being unstable would fit into her ordeal.  Having Hg (as well as other possible PPD and PTSD), lack of support, and stress of the situation would definitely render one not to be able to make major decisions at that point.  I think she needs to get treatment and resume getting her kids back.

 

 

 
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April 17, 2007, 1:44 pm PDT

Just the fax ma'am

Quote From: busyparents

Fact - yes the mother is in prison but hopefully not for long. I would never suggest taking them to  foster care unless there is reason to be concerned about the Needhams. The verdict is still out there - we don't  have any facts there to work with. Anyone know about the other child they have?  I am just  trying to discourage people from thinking that it is ok to just take them away because she was ill.

Fact - she did take them to Canada. Before you assume though that she did not take legal action, let's look into that. I know she filed a civil suit against them and a custody suit. She was trying. They sealed the suit - why - no one involved wants people to know what happened. Shouldn't the 911 tape show Allison was not taking voluntary and confident actions?

Seems like after that, and her poor physical condition, they would have thrown out the case. Seems suspicious, doesn't it? Looking at the whole picture - they didn't give the kids back fast, made the trial last for a long time, then ruled against her, sealed her civil suit, denied her visits, etc. Doesn't seem like she was finding success by going through the 'correct' methods. That doesn't mean it is ok to ignore a law, but as her attorney said - she did not have criminal intent in her actions.

Anyone read anything on the investigation into baby 'selling' and human trafficking? The UN was investigating the US for this issue. I wonder how hard it is to win a battle against money like that - adoption is a billion dollar biz. She is fighting not just against the Needhams but against the whole group. I bet they don't want her to win. I am sure someone on here can post a link on that. I don't have one handy.

Fact - she did not make a great decision most likely by going to Canada. However, if she had not, we would not have found out about this case in the media. She may have lost them and no one would have ever known. Maybe that will turn out to be a good idea in the end. Who knows.

When it comes to judgment, I think you have to differentiate between an act of impulse - which is clearly not evidence of one's real judgment and a decision that follows logical thinking and analysis. She said she decided last minute.
Maybe she took steps in the months before when she probably was feeling scared, but she obviously did not plan it out or she would not have been caught so fast. She would not have traveled under her own name and used legal passports, etc, that are trackable.

We can't judge her sense of judgment by this one act. If you look back - she had enough money to spend about a half million on legal fees. She is selling her house. She must have pretty good judgment to keep a job for 20 years and have that kind of money. We all do things we later feel were not a good choice - though they seemed it at the moment it occurred. We have to look at the whole picture.


You are right - stating opinions can imply judging, but I do think we need to be careful that we don't judge someone without knowing the whole situation.

Acts of impulse can be construed as judgment.  For example, if you veer your car off the road to avoid hitting another car to both minimize the damage to the other car and minimize the damage to your own car.  It's impulse, a survival mechanism.

 

If you think youre going to die, and have little to no support from a boyfriend, no family around, you'd want to ensure the survival of your offspring, right?  It's better than leaving them by the side of the road to rot.  Granted,it would have been better if she had worked out who would get the kids in the event of her death during the pg, but that's what we have. 

 

First impressions are judgments and we can evolve them.  Ideas are our judgments of the world and what we learn about it.  Does that mean we should stop having ideas?  Nah!  Being sensitive to everything denies a creative outlet, which stunts society instead of evolving it.  But they're just ideas, and you can change an idea.

 
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April 17, 2007, 1:45 pm PDT

When you play with fire...you are likely to get burned.....

When you come to a message board like this, I suppose you can expect people not to get along.  I guess in my naivity, I thought this would be a place where we can all express ourselves and be respected and enlightened by each others opinions.  I personally come to this particular board because I do fully support Allison.  That is not to say that I don't support the Needhams.  It is just to say that I personally believe the beginning way the Adoption was created was not ideal/ethical.  The problem is, as time goes on the case of these people gets increasingly complicated.  Like people have said, these children have bonded with the Needhams.  Several Judges have found it in the best interest of the children to stay with them.  And there are facts that support both sides of the case.  I simply feel the adoption never should have happened in the first place.  But it did.  We all need to remember that everyone here on this board is trying to decide for themselves what they think the best solution to this case is.  Every one of us has had different experiences in our lives, which make our perspectives 100% different (even if we all either support reunification or not.)  So , please try to remember that other people's opinions matter.  Even if we don't agree, it shows good character to respect and appreciate different points of view.  I hope you know that I honestly appreciate all of your comments since I am always open to new points of view. 

 

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April 17, 2007, 3:28 pm PDT

04/12 Twin Tug of War

Quote From: gwarrior6

Well, i think that there are other judges that can hear the case and decide whether or not she signed the documents under duress and coercion.  If she filed a civil suit, that's different from a custody suit.  I didn't hear anyone mention a custody suit at all. 

 

We can't assume that she DID file a custody suit either.  Maybe all she filed is a civil suit, but that's for $$ compensation, not for physical custody.  We can't assume she exhausted all facets of legally obtaining her children.  What I think happened is that she didn't KNOW HOW to go about the process and was so physically depleted from the HG and other related illness that she might NOT have even listened to their high priced advice. 

 

How is it obvious that she "has spent a ton of money on the process"?  I must have missed that part.  Unless you mean the civil suit and adoption process in and of itself.  Even then, you can find a cheaper attorney over the one that advertises on billboards.  Price doesn't always determine quality, either.

 

Being unstable would fit into her ordeal.  Having Hg (as well as other possible PPD and PTSD), lack of support, and stress of the situation would definitely render one not to be able to make major decisions at that point.  I think she needs to get treatment and resume getting her kids back.

 

 

Hi gwarrior6

 

I know we hold very different fews on what happened to Allison: I see coercion, you see something different.  Okay, fair enough. 

 

But I really don't see how you can believe her lawsuit could be about money and wanting money when it's been stated in the media that she's spent mega-bucks (someone help me with the news story linking the amount) to regain custody of her kids.  That's not someone looking for financial compensation.

 

And you last statement about treatment and getting her kids back is right on; we totally agree with that.  Can I go so far as to say  the treatment should have been immediate when 911 was involved, and it was clear something unacceptable was going on at the attornies office.  I mean, who calls 911?  And did she really get locked in for 11 hours?  Is that what she said?  That's insane and torture, imo.  Geneva Convention stuff.

 

And I do wonder at the use of the word unstable.   Being called unstable is usually in reference to a long term personality pattern, not being sick.  Allison was at Lockheed, right, for two decades...that's pretty stable, in my opinion.  Who else would love to see Allison's medical information and really know what was going on in her body?  (None of my business of course, but I just wonder knowing my own HG history)  If her electrolytes were messed up, that's very different from being unstable long term.

 
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April 17, 2007, 3:47 pm PDT

I like that Title..Just the fax...What are the Facts of this case?????

Quote From: gwarrior6

Acts of impulse can be construed as judgment.  For example, if you veer your car off the road to avoid hitting another car to both minimize the damage to the other car and minimize the damage to your own car.  It's impulse, a survival mechanism.

 

If you think youre going to die, and have little to no support from a boyfriend, no family around, you'd want to ensure the survival of your offspring, right?  It's better than leaving them by the side of the road to rot.  Granted,it would have been better if she had worked out who would get the kids in the event of her death during the pg, but that's what we have. 

 

First impressions are judgments and we can evolve them.  Ideas are our judgments of the world and what we learn about it.  Does that mean we should stop having ideas?  Nah!  Being sensitive to everything denies a creative outlet, which stunts society instead of evolving it.  But they're just ideas, and you can change an idea.

Whenever a lawyer is preparing for a case, they assimilate the facts and basically create a timeline of the events that occurred.  My impression of the facts are as follows:

Allison was a success College graduate and employee.  She was married and then later divorced (according to her because he didn't want kids).  She went through 3 years of invitro to get pregnant.  She got hyper emesis while pregnant.  She lost an enormous amount of weight and struggled through a c-section and required blood after.  She had a boyfriend who was related to the Adoptive Family.  They were interested in adopting the twins.  At six weeks old she signed the initial paper and they came and got custody.  She immediately changed her mind and was soon in a horrible, lengthy legal battle.   She took the children to Canada and was found and charged with International Kidnapping.  She is in Jail awaiting trial.  She was featured on the Dr. Phil show and other programs.  People seem to take one side or the other of the issue..not many people have no opinion when they hear about the case.  What are your thoughts on these facts?  Are they accurate?  I would love to hear your thoughts on the case.

 
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April 17, 2007, 3:51 pm PDT

help

My questions is:  where was Allison Quets' family in all this?  Her sister was telling about how sick Allison was and how weak she was - why didn't she offer to help?   I just feel so badly for her - were there no friends, relatives that would help her?  I can see both sides of the adoption I guess - she did sign the papers but these babies have been with a family that loves them.  This family is the only one they know - is it right to take them away from that?  However, she is their biological mother and loves them.  I just keep coming back to the sad fact that nobody would help her.  My sister and I can irritate each other to no end - but if either of us needed the other there would be nothing that would stop us from jumping in the car and going to help!
 
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April 17, 2007, 4:34 pm PDT

04/12 Twin Tug of War

Quote From: cashee

I would really like to re-emphasize that HG is not a metal illness in any way. Women who have HG are mentally competent. This is a physical illness. It can lead to PTSD, depression, and put you at higher risk for PPD but HG itself is not a mental sickness.

 

The point that was being made about Allison's mind-set in the show was that she was so physically depleated and exhausted that she felt on the brink of death and should not have made any life altering decisions at that time. She signed those papers under coercion and extreme durress because of her state.

 Ahh, gotchya. Thanks. Sorry about that.

 

I guess I am still wondering how long the recuperation time is, because it seems there is a gap between feeling on the brink of death and having actually made the choice to give up the babies. The emotional incompetence part seems pretty likely when someone is actively hooked up to tubes and is seriously ill, but what about after? I missed the time lines in this story - It seemed like she gave up her babies some time after release from the hospital.

 

Are there any lawyers on the board? Is illness considered duress? I always thought duress was through the use of force of some kind, it was something external. I think that the words coercion and duress are causing some confusion too.

 

I think that the argument that she was not emotional competent after suffering a difficult pregnancy related illness and physical depletion makes perfect sense (depending on the time frames that the papers were signed in relation to convalescence).

 

Also, are hospital staff not trained to deal with this? Where was her doctor? I would think she deserved better medical attention!

 

 
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