Topic : 04/26 Obsessive Love

How can jeff change if JENNIFER DOESN'T CHANGE. Jeff I really hope you change man because women can get what they want. Believe me she will get money for support after divorce, the kids, a house and a SECRET MAN  thats been going on behind your back. I don't understand why its wrong to investigate on your spouse and not wrong to hire CHEATERS (t.v. show). That is what you could of did jeff. She will lose everything including the kids and the house. She will end up staying with a looser PAYING RENT for an APARTMENT. Jennifer, the kids knows what their father is going through and they will know what your lifestyle is like!  Jeff can't control you. You could do what ever you want but its not what you do, its how you do it. Go ahead and hang out late with your co-workers. This time you could leave the kids home alone. Now that Jeff is out of the picture, I hope that you MATURE and stop that TEENAGE lifestyle of living. Its really shameful  you did that while you guys were together! GROW UP 31 years old!! YOU HAVE KIDS. Not only one BUTT THREE!! My GOSH! I know that jennifer is hiding something. To all you ladies who put jeff down, I hope and it will happen that your hubby cheats on you. And don't start questioning him becuase thats his business and invading his privacy.      

Remember, Jennifer can't change jeff unless she CHANGE herself. Just like her, she can't put up with jeff, its the same with a guy, he won't put up with her . So I believe that jennifers new relationship will be a dominos affect. I mean what guy will tolorate with a women who has kids and come home late, recieve butt pictures in MYSPACE and already have a reputations of cheating. Next thing you know jennifer is in Dr. Phil show again with a different guy! See jennifer is lost, she sees jeff acting like this and don't know why. Jeff is acting up and he himself KNOWS why. No man will find respect because of her actions. All men are going to see in her is a SEX OBJECT. Once in a relationship, he's going to HIT AND RUN! So ladies stop encouraging jennifer to leave and start encouraging her to become a women, that way you ladies won't have bad reputation as a SEX OBJECT! Now for jenn, if you don't clean up, your relationship won't last. One day you will find the man of your dream and if he knows about your rep, he's going to leave. But he'll make sure he get some first. Believe me ladies, I'm a guy. You need to be in my shoes! Come on guys lets try to find a good thing in a bad person (jeff) and see the bad in a good person (jenn). Remember if you respect yourself, others will to. 

for abused women.  There are fewer shelters for them than there are for abandoned or unwanted animals.  What would you suggest she do?  Reaching out to others may have been the only option she felt she had.  Maybe not the best solution, but who is to judge?

Let's see, the last time I checked, having a PhD in psychology qualifies someone as a 'real' therapist.  Dr. Phil does more than write diet books.  He has brought in attorneys, private investigators and security personnel to assist Jennifer.  I'd call that real help, wouldn't you?

I agree & while I think that Dr. Phil was right on in this matter & particularly with the way Jeffrey was trying to "play him" like all abusers do.  They are often master con men & will *act so crazy* they have people believing he's  "beyond just being an obsessive personality - he's psychotic"

 When in reality they're nothing more than calculating, coniving & deceiftful abusers................ 

Jeffrey wasn't even that good of a con artist & that's why he'd gone through 4 counselors prior to Dr. Phil, because they ALL had his number! 

Dr. Phil did great in tailoring his advice on this and I was kind of proud of him for seeing this IT for what IT really was.  NOTHING.............

Running away is the WORST thing Jennifer can do because he WILL find her & when he does if she's got no one around her who knows she's got *no one around her*.  She needs to be surrounded by many people who know (friends, family & police) & are ready to take action.............. 

To consider whether your partner emotionally abuses you, look at the information available on physical abusers.  The patterns are similar:

COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABUSERS
(adapted)

* He was verbally abused as a child, or witnessed it in his own family.

* He has an explosive temper, triggered by minor frustrations and arguments.

* Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous.  They experience an intense desire to control their mates.

* His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him.  He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him.

* Abusers often have superficial relationships with other people.   Their primary, if not exclusive, relationship is with their wife/girlfriend.

* He has low self-esteem.

* He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise.  He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite.  He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations.

* He has a great capacity for self-deception.  He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner.  He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much.  He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do.  He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him.  Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through.  He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him.

* He may be described as having a dual personality -- he is either charming or exceptionally cruel.  He is selfish or generous depending on his mood.

* A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others.  He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing:  a con man.

* The mate is usually a symbol.  The abuser doesn't relate to his partner as a person in her own right, but as a symbol of a significant other.   This is especially true when he's angry.  He assumes that she is thinking, feeling, or acting like that significant other -- often his mother.

http://www.lundybancroft.com/pages/articles.html

Here is another web site by Lundy Bancroft who's an expert in the area of behaviors of abusive men

in an article written by Lundy Bancroft for assessing treatment programs for abusers he says .....

What services will the program provide? Batterer intervention needs to be kept separate from other services. Specifically: 1) If the program reports that it will also be providing couples or family counseling for men in the program, the program is not appropriate, even if personnel say they will only do so “if the man is making good progress”. Huge safety concerns exist regarding conjoint counseling work with batterers; moreover, a batterer program that also offers couples counseling is sending the message to the battered woman that she can share responsibility for the batterer’s change, which is false. 2) Groups should not attempt to address substance abuse and domestic violence in depth in the same program; batterers who have substance abuse issues need to be in recovery and to be receiving separate services for their addiction. 3) The program should not claim to decide which men need batterer intervention and which need “anger management”; if the man is in the program because of any degree of violence, threats, sexual assault, or chronic verbal abuse toward an intimate partner, he is not appropriate for anger management. "

(****  This is an outline for an article I have not yet written, but I thought it might be helpful to people already. ******)

by Lundy Bancroft

Admitting fully to what he has done

Stopping excuses

Stopping all blaming of her

Making amends

Accepting responsibility (recognizing that abuse is a choice)

Identifying patterns of controlling behavior, admitting their wrongness

Identifying the attitudes that drive his abuse

Accepting that overcoming abusiveness will be a decades-long process, not declaring himself cured

Not starting to say, “so now it’s your turn to do your work”, not using change as a bargaining chip

Not demanding credit for improvements he has made

Not treating improvements as chips or vouchers to be spent on occasional acts of abuse (e.g. “I haven’t done anything like this in a long time, so why are you making such a big deal about it?”)

Developing respectful, kind, supportive behaviors

Carrying his weight

Sharing power

Changing how he is in highly heated conflicts

Changing how he responds to his partner’s (or former partner’s) anger and grievances

Changing his parenting

Changing his treatment of her as a parent

Changing his attitudes towards females in general

Accepting the consequences of his actions (including not feeling sorry for himself about those consequences, and not blaming her or the children for them)

Last but not least I want to tell you I'm really affraid for you.  I think your husband is of a extremely high risk to hurt or kill & so I'm going to pot the national hotline number for you & this is under the resources section of Lundy Bancroft's web site.

For Women of All Backgrounds

            •  National Domestic Violence Hotline for the United States and Canada: 1-800-799-SAFE.

            Call this number to receive a referral to the closest hotline for abused women in your area. The use of this number is not restricted to women who have experienced physical violence: Women and teens are welcome to call with any issue regarding verbal abuse or control in a relationship, or just because something is happening in their relationship that is making them uncomfortable.

I'm sure this is in the front of all phone books.  I'm sure they're also online too & they can direct you to the local chapters.  You should be calling ASAP to find out what your rights are & to let them know about the threat he poses to you, that he is on probation & find out if he's in violation of it. 

None of this is about your behaviors or Jennifer's it's about abusive men & if you were both the mirror of Mother Therasa an abuser would find fault & abuse you both for it.  This is NOT your FAULT & this has been brainwashed into you & is clear on your post & why your confusion jumps out of the page.  Now the following is taken from Lundry Bancrofts web site on assessing the danger of an abuser.  See how many fit Jeffrey & look to see how many fit your husband & remember when they say to use your "gut" instincts.  And as far as the kids go well they have parents because what they want isn't always what's best & so it's a parent who does what's best.  It's not best for them to see you abused. 

this is a *piece* taken from the "assessing the dangerousness of men who abuse women"

"(Based on sections of Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men)

         A considerable body of research has accumulated about predicting dangerousness in men who batter. The work of Jacquelyn Campbell and of Neil Websdale has been particularly important and insightful in this regard.

            Abuser programs, other professionals, and abused women themselves have the need to assess the potential that a particular abuser has to kill or dangerously harm his current or former partner and any children that are involved. A considerable number of risk factors have emerged that have predictive value in making such an assessment.

            Danger assessment for men who abuse women is still far from being an exact science, however. There are documented killings by men whose previous profile did not make them appear to have the potential for such severe or cruel violence. Therefore all abused women should be encouraged to work with a trained advocate on creating a safety plan. Women should also be encouraged to take seriously intuitions that they have about the dangerousness of a partner or former partner, even if he does not exhibit a large number of the risk factors listed below.

            Factors that should be taken particularly seriously include:

·      The woman has a strong “gut” sense that the man could kill her or her children, or could carry out a serious and dangerous assault against any of them or against himself.

·       He is extremely jealous and possessive. This characteristic becomes even more worrisome when he appears to be obsessive, constantly keeping her at the center of his thoughts and appearing to be unable to conceive of life without her. He has, for example, made statements such as, “If I can’t have you, nobody will.”

·       He has a history of severe or very frequent violence toward her, or toward other individuals such as past partners.

·       He follows her, monitors her whereabouts, uses high-tech means to keep tabs on her, or stalks her in other ways. He knows where she lives and works, knows names and addresses of her friend or relatives, or is in very familiar with her daily routines.

·       She is taking steps to end the relationship, or has already done so.

·       He was violent to her during a pregnancy.

·       There are stepchildren involved.

·       He has threatened to kill her or to hurt her severely, has strangled her, or has threatened her with a weapon (including making verbal reference to using a weapon, even if he did not actually brandish it). He has threatened to kill the children or the whole family.

·       He has access to weapons and/or he is familiar with their use.

·       He is depressed, suicidal, or shows signs of not caring what happens to him. He has, for example, threatened to kill himself if she leaves him.

·       He is unemployed.

·       He isn’t close to anyone, and no current relationships with friends or relatives are important to him.

·       He has a significant criminal history and/or he has a history of using violence or threatening violence against other people.

·       He abuses alcohol or drugs heavily, especially if his habits involve daily or nearly daily intoxication.

·       He has been violent to children.

·       He has killed or in other ways been violent to pets, or has used other terror tactics.

·       He uses pornography heavily and/or has a history or perpetrating sexual violence or degradation against his partner or others.

·       He has exhibited extreme behaviors when his current partner or past partners have made attempts to leave him.

            The current state of knowledge does not make it possible to create a formula from the above factors to create low, moderate, and high-risk categories of risk. A particularly extreme presentation in even one of the above categories can be a basis for serious concern. Professionals, abused women, and others attempting to use this list of factors, need to apply their findings with common sense and intuition. When an abusive man appears particularly dangerous based on the above factors or for other reasons, professionals involved with him should inform the abused woman as soon as possible (more on this below). They should also inform appropriate police departments, any mental health or child protection professionals involved with the man, and anyone else who might be in a position to prevent a dangerous assault from taking place. "

Please do take precautions to get out fast if you need to.  & please contact the authorities that your husband has a gun & had bullets next to your bed.  Just because they are gone doesn't mean it wasn't a threat & it doesn't mean there aren't more.  And please go first tot he phone & make the call & find out what your rights are & what resources are available to you.  Stay safe & God Bless.

ok the "bath tub" comment.  Imagine her saying to a bunch of friends "My God I'm finally home here & I've had all these PI's going through the house & finding all kinds of bugs in teh house & recording devices etc. & it has REALLY creeped me out!  But FINALLY I can relax tonight & take a shower/bath without thinking I'm being watched or having Jeffre take my picture!  I can't wait to get in the tub tonight".  & then when a friend calls to check on this woman who's been *emotionally battered for 11 yrs.* there's no answer & he says "Ah Iimagine you're in the tub now.  I'll call back later".  I would say that to a friend who I'd already spoken too.  I could see me saying "hey you must be in the shower I'll call you back in a little while".  Jennifer will NEED men around her now because she is going to be scared out of her mind!  What is so tough about this for people to understand?  You people are all focused on a statement made in a conversation that was twisted by an ABUSER to be able to say "see you're a slut" & call her yet another name & point blame & degrade his victim!  He was also upset that the "camera men were going though Jennifer's underware drawer"?  I mean he's in a lock up & he's concerned about her underware drawer?  Was that going to be her fault too?  & this is the same person upset over the message from a man saying "you must be in the bath"?  Big woo !  If you came home from work & friends knew you had a crappy day & one of the men in the group called to check on you & realizing you said you were going to soak in a tub mentioned "ah you must be in the tub" your husband would go a little nutzo?  Let me tell you if that's the case there's a serious trust issue in your marriage.  It just wouldn't occur to me that him mentioning the tub or a bath would me there's a sexual interest.  That's something a brother or father might say "ah you must be in the bath.  I'll call back later".  Yet this is what people focus on .  Not the fact this man tried to offer his wife for sex to a friend with their *little girl* sleeping in the bed with her mother.?  what would your hubby do then?  & for someone who's so nutso over a man mentioning the tub isn't that a bit odd?  It has nothing to do with him being jealous of another man it's him having control like all abusers!    

This is not about Jennifer's behaviors & Jeffrey is not way over the top &/or mentally ill.  He is an abuser & he married a teenager who he'd gotten pregnant who was 11 yrs. his junior because she'd be easy prey!  What might look to a teenager like romantic & over protective jealousy would to a 30 yr. old woman who is a  *peer* seem like a controlling jackass!  Dr. Phil did not "just skip over the phone message" because this isn't about Jennifer's behaviors it's about an abuser & he'd said that already.  Jeffrey isn't disilussional in that he sees things different than everyone else he sees it very clearly, but he twists things to fit what he wants so he can "punish Jennifer".  That's why when he called her on the phone right after he'd called her mother he'd said "you got me locked up here so now you can run around".  This is when the PI's are going through the house & long before any "calls" & it was not "her" that got "him locked up" but "him" Jeffrey that got him locked up.  He doesn't really see it as her that got him locked up though he will convince himself of that because then he can tighten ther reigns even tighters & thus punish Jennifer even more!  He is not ill he is a manipulator. 

We do all ralize that he'd had a former wife leave him for these very same abusive behaviors right?  He's an abuser ....................

Lundy Bancroft expert in abusive men & their behaviors. 

http://www.lundybancroft.com/pages/articles_sub/assessing_change.htm

Lets see how many of these fit Jeffrey & then ask yourself how many did the *smart Dr. Phil* ask to trip Jeffrey up to get the real answers out of him?  and the answers reflex MANY of the points in Bancrofts outline..........

(****  This is an outline for an article I have not yet written, but I thought it might be helpful to people already. ******)

by Lundy Bancroft

Admitting fully to what he has done

Stopping excuses

Stopping all blaming of her

Making amends

Accepting responsibility (recognizing that abuse is a choice)

Identifying patterns of controlling behavior, admitting their wrongness

Identifying the attitudes that drive his abuse

Accepting that overcoming abusiveness will be a decades-long process, not declaring himself cured

Not starting to say, “so now it’s your turn to do your work”, not using change as a bargaining chip

Not demanding credit for improvements he has made

Not treating improvements as chips or vouchers to be spent on occasional acts of abuse (e.g. “I haven’t done anything like this in a long time, so why are you making such a big deal about it?”)

Developing respectful, kind, supportive behaviors

Carrying his weight

Sharing power

Changing how he is in highly heated conflicts

Changing how he responds to his partner’s (or former partner’s) anger and grievances

Changing his parenting

Changing his treatment of her as a parent

Changing his attitudes towards females in general

Accepting the consequences of his actions (including not feeling sorry for himself about those consequences, and not blaming her or the children for them)

from the show and the beginning of Dr. Phil getting to the nitty gritty here when Jeffrey flips from one explaination to another............. A con will completely switch tactics or lies if need be & Jeffrey does. 

He starts by exusing his behavior by blaming Jennifer for scaring him & him "not knowing what to do to earn another chance" Dr. Phil calls him on it. 

Jeffrey says that Jennifer has threatened to leave before, but he wasn't scared until the last eight months. "I want to know what I have to do to earn another chance," he says.

Dr. Phil doesn't know if he believes Jeffrey. "You have been not to one, not to two, not to three, but to four different therapists who have told you what you need to do, and you fire them every time, because they don’t tell you what you want to hear. So you lean on your own understanding," he says to him. "If you’re so smart, then how come you’re in such a problem with your marriage?"

See he doesn't want to know how to "earn another chance" he just wants a therapist to say "you should work this out by doing this that & some other thing" so he can continue tojust go along doing what he's doing any way.  Dr. Phil tells him that every time a therapist tells him what to do he fires them...............& so Jeffrey chanes position on "why he does what he does & now it's a "complusion"

"It's a compulsion. It really is," Jeffrey says. He explains that he will catch himself in the middle of doing something that he knows is going to hurt Jennifer, like erasing all the work numbers in her phone, but he just can't stop doing it.

And so calling someone we profess to love vile names is & telling them they're "worthless" is his idea of working at another chance or is this part of his "complusion" that he call her vile names.  Is he telling her she's "worthless" to cut her down, fill her with fear & make her feel she can't make it on her own to "keep her" & how is this because of his jealousy?  That's not jealousy that's him afraid his prey is getting away!  Dr. Phil ever so right calls him on it. 

Dr. Phil lists Jeffrey's obsessive behaviors including calling Jennifer a slut, a whore, a bitch and worthless. "What do you predict when you do that?" 

 And bingo after being *bagger* by someone who Jeffrey cannot bully we get the *real answer*

"I've done things to keep her where I'm comfortable," Jeffrey says.

he likes her feeling horrible & THAT is where he is comfortable with her in her place!  And that my friend is an ABUSER  and that is Jeffrey plain & simple. 

& no noe of that should happen in a marriage & I'm so happy you & so many others are so far removed from it that you all don't recognize it when there are professionals on national TV diagnosing.  This means that you're not suffering from it & that makes me happy.  The sad part is this is the reason so many abuse victims stay because they're abusers make it clear no one will believe them.