Topic : 04/27 Obsessive Love: The Drama Continues

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" She walked down the aisle of a church surrounded by utter strangers, not able to seek out a single familiar face on her own wedding day.  Who accepts that?  Any woman with half her sense is going to realize then and there that her life with this man is not going to be healthy or loving.  I simply can't imagine acquiesing to a wedding without my friends and family.  I wouldn't have." 

The *teenage girl* who was pregnant & probably very scared was probably very easily talked into this by someone 11 yrs. her senior! 

"am I truly the only woman who's tired of her sisters playing the victims"

It IS cold and insensitive of you to judge other women in this manner.  Do you realize that shame plays a huge part in women not wanting to talk about their abuse & so by YOU implying they're "playing the victim" YOU are encouraging their insecurity and making it HARDER for them to seek help to get out?!    

Or in the words from a domestic violence web site one of the "Barriers to leaving is

"Social Stigma - There are social stigmas around being a victim of domestic violence, as well as around divorce and single parenthood. The shame these stigmas cause may make it difficult for victims to reach out for help. The lack of accurate information about domestic violence coupled with these social stigmas leads to victims being blamed for the abuse, which creates additional barriers." 

Doesn't that sound like it applies to the shame & implications in your post? 

You say that "his behavior is not her fault but her & the kids still being in the house is" is that right?   Are you implying that her getting out of that house is a matter of her just leaving?  Do you have *any idea* what you're talking about when it comes to abuse? 

What I'm tired of is people making these statements without doing any reading at all on the subject.  If you did do any reading on the subject you wouldn't be accusing our sisters of "playing the victims" & you'd know how many women (& their children) are killed when they leave their abuser!  Did you not hear the man say there wasn't  "anything he wouldn't do" to keep from loosing her?  The things he'd done thus far was not sending her roses everyday or trying to wooo her but tracking her car, making threats & physically restraining her in the basement.  He'd also taken one of the children at one point to keep her from leaving & you don't think this will escalate to a murder/suicide?  YOU sister need to do some reading and realize the harm you're doing to other women by supporting the fears &/or shames that the very abuser does all because you're speaking without any knowledge.  Here are just a FEW facts from web site where you could begin an education

According to http://www.snbw.org/volunteer/agency_services.htm

Disturbing facts about domestic violence…

• Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the United States more than car accidents, muggings and rapes combined.
• Two of the most dangerous times a battered woman faces are during pregnancy or if she attempts to leave the relationship. Leaving does not ensure her safety because that is when abusers realize they are losing what is essential for them: power and control.

According to http://womenscenter.virginia.edu/sdvs/domestic/myths.htm

"When a woman does leave a relationship, there are no guarantees of safety. The most dangerous time for abused women is during a separation. Batterers will often go to great lengths to trace their spouses or partners in order to continue the abuse. Many abusers feel that they "own" their mates and are entitled to do as they wish, that "if I can't have her, no one else can, either." How often have you read in the headlines, "Man kills wife, children, self?"

According to

http://www.jfw.org.uk/BWS.HTM

"Margo Wilson and Martin Daly's work on domestic homicide has used data sets from a number of industrialised countries. One of the most important findings from their research is that leaving is actually the most dangerous thing women can do. "

According to a site for professional DV counselors

http://www.stopvaw.org/sites/3f6d15f4-c12d-4515-8544-26b7a3a5a41e/uploads/@LethalityModule.PDF

"Research indicates the most dangerous time for a battered woman is after she's ended the relationship.  In the United States. some statistics show that women who leave their batterers are at a 75% greater risk of being killed than those who stay.  It is best for a battered woman to make her own decision to leave because she is in the best position to assess the potential danger". 

"For one it was Jeff who contacted dr Phil."

Yes many abusers will actually seek out counselors & when acting in the "charming manner" fool many people.  It's much easier to convince a victim of abuse that they're "crazy" when there's a therapist helping to back them up.  Clearly Jeffrey is very good at this & has snowed many people.  At the revelation of the first affair she'd had & getting caught Jennifer did not want to continue this marriage & Jeffrey insisted they try to work it out.  Once again she was a very young woman & I'm betting doing what she'd been made to feel was the "right thing".  He was probably charming back then & is charming to many people now.  When it comes to the therapist &/or counselors though he doesn't seem to do too well & when they tell him what he doesn't want to hear he just fires them & goes looking for the next one.  You don't really think that Dr. Phil is the 5th therapist to be "completely one sided" do you? 

You're mention of it sounding like she was "a prisoner" is pretty much right on target.  He'd gone through her desk at work, made life at work for her such (& the 700 co-workers he'd contacted) a living nightmare that she'd lost her job, having found documented proof of his behavior that she had at work for safe keeping now at home he'd burned the paperwork,  then he cut off all access to money & let us not forget that I believe when she'd called for help 1 time he'd taken her child & left the house. 

Who said she "went bar hopping with other men?" The mention of her husband being upset as far as I heard was that She'd gone out with *co-workers* & hadn't told him that there was a guy as 1 of those people because she knew he'd go nuts.  She'd told him it was her & her girlfriend & just didn't mention that this guy was going too.  This was why Jeffrey was upset.  I didn't hear anyone say she was "bar hopping" .  I'm not sure if he'd been upset about how late she'd stayed out til but this woman is an adult & is a mom who's taking care of kids & at that time was working a job & we're all are entitled to some down time with friends.  There are many people who go out after work with co-workers & they'll be women & men.  Usually if 1 parent isn't there it IS the other parent who'll watch the kids.  We didn't go out without each other often but my hubby's watched the kids when I've had girls night out.  Just because it was girls night out didn't mean we wouldn't be in a bar & there wouldn't be men there.  And Hubby has gone with the guys too which would have left me watching the kids.  We both knew we were adults & would never have put a curfew over the other.   

You think she enjoyed the situation she had going?  You mean having a GPS put on her car & being tracked, her emails checked, snail mail checked, phone called tapped & the friends she still had or would make threatened?!   You think that her not having sex with her husband was some kind of perk for her like driving a nice are & living in a nice house?  I imagine that her unwillingness to have sex is due to her feeling violated by her husband sneaking in & taking pictures of her showering, wanting her to have sex with his friend, setting his friend in a position in their bedroom to persuade her to allow it (while their kid was there)  and trying to trick her into getting pregnant.  When I heard about her no longer having sex with him it sounded to me like she was repulsed by him because of his behaviors.   Frankly I'm not sure how taking pictures of her nude & wanting her to sleep with his friend was going to preserve their marriage?! 

I have to tell you I understand what you're saying that this man was desperate to keep his family together but this is not a "loving family" situation here.  If he really loved her and was trying to demonstrate that he wouldn't be calling her a "slut & a whore".  I heard her say she didn't understand why he wanted to stay with her anyway because he "doesn't even like me.  I'm not sure how he can love me when there's nothing about me that he even likes".  So he was willing to do anything but find some things to her that were positive about her "I love you so much because you're___________, _____________ & ____________."   

I know it hurts to loose it all but if she doesn't want to be there & she's there because she's "forced" to stay then he doesn't really have her anyway.   Frankly I have to wonder if she hadn't been woooed into sex at the age of 19 yrs. old & then into marriage that she really didn't want.  I think he used verbal cohortion all those years at the start to get her to marry & stay & that's why he'd started to question her "shortly after they'd married".  I believe he talked her into marrying when she was pregnant & when she didn't want to & then he was insecure because he knew she really didn't marry because she wanted to.  Now he needed to keep her there & you cannot make someone love you &/or make them stay.  When he realized his worst fear of her cheating it just all snowballed.  I do think he's a danger though & that this is nothing like what you're thinking or have experienced.  

It is very sad isn't it? 

I do see the 8very thing you're saying here & given her age at the start I think "My Gosh how easy of a target to con". 

You know much like Dr. Phil I've never had any patience for people who cheat on a spouse & if a woman was to be telling me she was "fooling around" I'd be telling her there's no excuse for what she's doing, but in this case I just don't see how people cannot see the writing on the wall.  He was a 30 yr. old man who woo & then got a 19 yr. old pregnant & then probably coned her into marrying him out of a sense of duty for the baby.  He used pregnancy as a means to get married to her & was about to try to trick her into getting pregnant *again* as a means to save the marriage &/or keep her there again.  He was "questioning her shortly after they married" because he knew it was a con to get her to marry him.  That insecurity would have been there if she'd had that affair or not. 

See this is one of the reasons that I always tell people that no matter what the problem in their marriage when they have an affair it just makes things so much worse.  It creates such a fog that the original problem is over shadowed by the infidelity & people can't get past that & if you'd been victimized the abuser then claims they're the victim because of the infidelity!  And the abuser will get sympathy because of it!  I do agree with you though we live in a blame the victim society.  Frankly I think many who dfo that just re-enforce the threats abusers use to keep their victims in line. 

You feel a mother is not entitled to have friends or go out?  Do you think that some might wonder why you're here & think that the computer &/or the internet is "just for kids or lonely people"?  You're here though aren't you? 

No one said she goes out "all the time to party" and she wasn't afraid of him just hauling off & hurting her she was afraid if she left he'd go squirrely & hurt her.  She's got very good reason to be affraid if you'll check the statistics on that very thing happening. 

When my kids were little I was a *very heavey* sleeper & it was always hubby who'd hear them & wake me. 

I don't imagine she'd have thought that this man was going to be a "perv" & be watching her during her sleep until she did indeed wake up from the heat & find him watching her.  Kicking the covers off if you're hot is a natural 1st reaction while sleeping.

She did not contact Dr. Phil herself because she cannot make a phone call without her husband knowing about it because he tacks her every move & conversation. 

I don't normally cry tears until long after my face has gone looking ugly & I would put myself in check  & styfle it before the tears came. 

If you think that "the cheater caused the problem in this relationship" I say you're wrong. 

You need to do some reading and educate yourelf. 

I'm sorry but you're wrong.  I understand you're the child of abuse & I did read your original post.   Did you read *anything I wrote* to you?  I am truely sorry for the pain in your life but once again I'll say that you don't understand what you're talking about.  Abuse doesn't always come in the manner to which you'll recognize it.    You say that you'd never "assume to know to any certainty what is going on in any relationship"  & yet you'll state that she's a "betrayle of an abused woman afraid of her husband, it trivializies the real victims out there."  That is a judgement & a pretty critical one.  There are many women & children that are victims of emotional & verbal abuse that never leaves a scare but are never the less truamatizing & leaving lasting scars & it's you that is trivializing that.  The shootings in VA tech have people outraged, but as many people knew this young man *sounded troubled* he hadn't done anything physically to be threatening to anyone & yet we know what he did in the end.  Just because a man has not used his hands to leave a scar doesn't mean they're not dangerous. 

How many people here keep asking "why doesn't she just leave if she doesn't like it?"  Now you say you've done countless hours of research so you must know the answer to what is the single most dangerous time for a woman in a situation of DV?  Is it not when she's leaving?  You don't think this woman has a right to be afraid of this man when he took her kid the 1 time she'd had help coming to her & kept the child with him untill he knew the help left & she was still there at home?  That is a threat honey that if she leaves he's got her kid & it's not so he can make certain to have a least one of their kids it's so "you'll not see him again".  There are more ways to hurt a person than physically taking them & hurting them & for a parent a sure fire pain is hurting or taking a kid. 

Do you really sthink that a *girl* of 19 yrs. old would be savy enough to manipulate a man 11 yrs. her senior ?  She was a *teenager* when she was con'd into getting married out of a sense of duty to her unborn child.  & he's emotionally abused her ever since.  If you've done all that research then you've got to understand that even physical abuse is accompanied by emotional abuse to keep the person there. 

You did state that if the gender roles were reversed here that people would see things differently.  You're wrong again.  I take infidelity very seriously & it's not something I'd ever tolerate & I do not mix words with people when they tell me they've had an affair.  I think this is a PRIME example of 1 of the points I always try to make to people too in that when we have an afair whatever the problem is that they're claiming created the desire to cheat is now clouded over & all everyone can see is the infidelity.  I believe this is an entirely different thing that this woman just going & being bored & flirtatious with men & sleeping around.  I think she was young & not ready to settle down when he con'd her & he "started questioning her right after they married".  For heaven sakes the girl was still pregnant & then a new mother!   & if someone is brow beating you about cheating all the time & constantly putting you down eventually one many think "If I'm gonna be accused of cheating _________"  This would be especially true of someone who is as immature as to only be 20 yrs. old.  Her 2 affairs in the first 2 years of their marriage.  She didn't want to be married & said so up front back then & this may would not let her go & kept her with any means he could.   He'd admitted he'd tried to trick her now by pretending to have a vasectomy to trick her into another pregnancy!  THAT is mainpulation dear.  Who knows what this man did in the past that may have tricked her into other pregnancies?!  AGain I know you say that you've done hours of research but I think you need to go back & read the signs & behaviors again.  Here is a clue to *emotional abuse* taken from this web site

http://www.lilaclane.com/relationships/emotional-abuse/links.html

Symptoms of

Many women assume that if they're not being physically abused by their partner, then they're not being abused.  That's not necessarily true.   You may be in a relationship which is draining something from you -- you might not have recognized that your partner has eroded your self-esteem and happiness.

Take a moment to consider these questions.  Your partner might have behaved as though these things were okay, even though it's obvious that they aren't okay...:

Do you feel that you can't discuss with your partner what is bothering you?

Does your partner frequently criticize you, humiliate you, or undermine your self-esteem?

Does your partner ridicule you for expressing yourself?

Does your partner isolate you from friends, family or groups?

Does your partner limit your access to work, money or material resources? 

Has your partner ever stolen from you?  Or run up debts for you to handle? 

Does your relationship swing back and forth between a lot of emotional distance and being very close? 

Have you ever felt obligated to have sex, just to avoid an argument about it?

Do you sometimes feel trapped in the relationship?

Has your partner ever thrown away your belongings, destroyed objects or threatened pets?

Are you afraid of your partner?

* Abusers are extremely possessive and jealous.  They experience an intense desire to control their mates. his actions just speak to all on this one.

* His sense of masculinity depends on the woman's dependency upon him.  He feels like a man only if his partner is totally submissive and dependent on him.  keeping his wife barefoot & pregnant with not access to money etc. demonstrates this.

* He has low self-esteem.  the reason he had to get her prggers to start with & the reason he started questioning her shortly after they married. 

* He has rigid expectations of marriage (or partnership) and will not compromise.  He expects her to behave according to his expectations of what a wife should be like; often the way his parents' marriage was, or its opposite.  He demands that she change to accommodate his expectations.  No clothes that he feels are too revealing or no behavior that's too friendly like joking with a girlfriend calling her a "sexy bitch". 

* He has a great capacity for self-deception.  He projects the blame for his relationship difficulties onto his partner.  He would not be drunk if she didn't nag him so much.  He wouldn't get angry if only she would do what she's supposed to do.  He denies the need for counseling because there's nothing wrong with him.  Or he agrees to get counseling and then avoids it or makes excuses to not follow through.  He might not want her to get counseling because, he reasons, she wouldn't have any problems if she only turned to him

& well we all know that the whole thing is her fault for getting herself prgnant prior to marriage & he had to fire those 4 different counselors because they just didn't get him. 

* A major characteristic of abusers is their capacity to deceive others.  He can be cool, calm, charming and convincing:  a con man.  wahla he's got 1/2 of America believing he's really a great guy just upset at his wild wanton wife & trying to keep his marriage together. 

I think you need to go to this web site & start doing some reading on *emotional abuse*.  It's scars are different in some ways to physical abuse but is often followed by it. 

I think for many on this message board that are concerned about this girl the following description I found for "Obcessive Ex Syndrom" is the real fear we're all having and it's the fear of the head lines we'll read about this couple at some point.  This seemed almost scarey in the description of Jeffrey except he hadn't actually lost his wife yet, but fears he has.  Here is from the web site http://www.obsessive-ex.com/oex/index.html

There are some people who are unable to mentally "let go" of a partner after a break-up.  At first it just seems like a difficult breakup. They keep calling, keep visiting, keep arguing and trying to reconcile.

Then they're following, stalking or threatening their ex-partner.

Then vandalizing belongings, or escalating to personal violence, or killing the partner's pets.

Left unaddressed, in extreme cases the syndrome may progress to the point that the ex kidnaps or kills their children, resorts to murder, or commits suicide.

It is important to recognize this syndrome in its early stages and take preventive steps. The longer the obsession persists without interruption or intervention, the more the obsessor will lose contact with reality.

The general media has not yet acknowledged this syndrome.  Obsessive Ex Syndrome is rampant.  It is difficult to estimate the magnitude of this problem because media reports break it up into little pieces, describing individual incidents only when they reach an extreme end, instead of acknowledging the overall picture.

Many reported cases of "husband murders wife" are actually Obsessive Ex Syndrome.  Reporters assume that if the two have the same last name, they're married.  Often it isn't until the 2nd or 3rd day that follow-up news reports are corrected to show that they were not "husband and wife", but were divorced or separated.

I certainly can sympathize with her in her situation, as I live in a very similar but not as severe controlled home.  My husband is an alcoholic.  I am not working, and can not, have nothing in my name that we own, have no money in a checkbook with my name on it, so rely on cash when it is given to me.  I can not grocery shop or clothes shop on my own, go out with my girlfriends, or hug male friends.  My cell phone is monitored, my credit card bills need to be explained, and my daughter is controlled and verbally abused as well....the list goes on.  But, like it was stated earlier in the discussion.  Men like this are con-men.  They do not let others see this in them and if they think you are talking about it to someone, they come unglued.  Have tried to get him to go to counseling - we went once - to a female counselor, and he actually had a "stare-down" with her.  I felt she was quite intimidated by him.  We didn't go back.  I feel like I am living in a bird cage and just waiting for the door to open so I can fly away.....it is terrible to live like this and very scary to leave.  It is so much easier just to let him talk and have his own way so there is no explosion.  My daughter and I do our best to kind of "do our own thing"...but it is only allowed so much.  Maybe someday I will quit being such a coward and get us out of here. 

Are you for real?  Thriving off the attention, the abuse her husband is handing out?  As a women that has lived with a abusive husband that is crazy.  She stays because of the way he treats her yes but it is because of the abuse and he has stripped away her ability to think for herself and her self worth.  She is under his control and until she trusts that she will be ok without him she will stay because this is the only life she knows. 

idiforlife