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Topic : 05/11 Obsessive Love: On the Run

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Created on : Friday, May 04, 2007, 12:13:43 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
The incredible drama continues involving Jeffrey, an obsessive husband who won’t let go of his wife, Jennifer. After the last show, Jeffrey is on his way back to the treatment facility, when his anger gets the best of him, and he jumps out of the car and goes on the run. He finally calls his therapist from a taxi cab, but soon after is on the loose again. After four hours and a frenzy of phone calls with Dr. Phil show producers, see what Jeffrey demands. With the stress and pressure getting the best of her, Jennifer sits down with Dr. Phil to discuss their next step. In a hurried panic, Jennifer heads home and is shocked by what she finds when she walks in the front door. She takes her kids and flees to her mother’s house. Even though she’s in a safe place, why does she say she still lives in fear? Then, Jennifer’s attorney files papers and meets Jeffrey in front of a judge. Will Jeffrey be able to comply with the judge's orders? And, Jeffrey resumes talk with the Dr. Phil staff. What is he asking for? Jeffrey’s behavior continues to shock and mystify Jennifer and leaves her with only one choice. Share your thoughts, join the discussion.

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May 30, 2007, 1:19 pm PDT

thelittles give yourself the credit.

Quote From: thelittles

Thank you for your kind reply.  Guardian ad Litem's are a saving grace for children. 

 

For anyone else who reads my post, please understand that I do not consider my situation nearly as horrific as what some of the others here are going through.  I consider myself a "lucky one," which is why I want to help others.

 

As for DHS, if you suspect, for any reason, that a child is being abused, CALL!  Always err on the side of protecting the child, no matter what.  You would want the same for your child, I promise.  I've had DHS at my home 4 times, thanks to my ex.  His allegations were filth, neglect, and physical abuse.  I now have 4 reports to substantiate that his allegations are unsubstantiated.  Yet the one and only time I've ever called DHS, the child was permanantly removed from the home, the brother charged with sexual abuse, and the mother busted for making meth.  And I almost didn't call...

yes your life is a good one & so is mine & I do so give thanks every day for that, but it is your strenght that pulled you through & while not as bad as some others if you didn't have the strenght you did it could have been much worse. 

 

with that then you're here to help others & sharing your experience and sharing the information given you have to know what you contribute is something that more than like will help save a life.  That's something huge to me.  There are so many who are "lucky" but not doing all that much outside of themselves & yet here you are & while painful to remember etc. you're still willing to recount it to help others.  And so yea maybe it's my way of giving back to you because I know for a very very long time you had all your flaws pointed out to you & had all that negativity heaped on you.  So now when I'm sitting here thinking "wow what strenght she has" I think it's the least I can do.  Let's face it we're in a world where we normally hear what's wrong with us & so to be acknowledging the good someone is doing &/or their good qualities of them is something I think should be done.  I am proud of you & I thank you. 

 
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May 30, 2007, 1:41 pm PDT

What 'group'?

Quote From: cjs777

I my opinion, for what it's worth to the group.  If  this  group had it's way they would do every thing in their power to make sure this family never operated as a family.  Every situation is unique.  You can't go by your or anyone's else experience.  "What if you are wrong"

  Both should be under Professional care and not listen to this group.

 

"To help others you must have compassion for all"  Think about.

A half-dozen people who are volunteering  their time to help abused women?  Maybe we need a clubhouse and a password.  What are you doing to help? 

 

We save our compassion for those who deserve it.  Those who are being abused.  You think about it before you attack or belittle.

 

 

 

 

 
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May 30, 2007, 1:50 pm PDT

you are wonderful for sharing

Quote From: thelittles

I was injured at work, and my boss, 12 years my senior, took me under his wing.  I had been attacked by a male customer and ruptured my rotator cuff quite badly.  I had just ended a relationship that started during my teen years where I was physically abused.  My only true injury of all of that was my fear.  My ex "took care" of me.  Promised to keep me safe and such.  He even spotlighted the man who attacked me while I was working so the police could catch him stalking me.  Within months, he decided I should move with him 3 hours from home.  I did.

 

I quickly noticed that this was not going to be the life for me.  I was packing to move home when I got a "stomach flu."  I found out 4 days into my "flu" that it was going to last 9 months.  We married before she was born.  He had settled down somewhat.  But after she was born, it all started back up.  His drinking binges, staying out all night, hatefulness.  He would send me to the store with $40 for formula, diapers, groceries, and a case of beer.  I survived on Ramen Noodles.  Because of my shoulder, I was not working, then I was pregnant, and couldn't get a job, then I had no money for daycare, so I still had no way of earning my own money.  Even when I settled the lawsuit with the man who attacked me and his employer, my ex took charge of that money.  I was allowed $250.00 for new clothes.  Just one of his new shirts was that much.  My name was not on the account that my settlement money was wired into.

I eventually settled into trying to do what is right and best for my daughter.  I started a home based daycare.  When it was finally successful, he took a job transfer 3 hours away from where we were, yet still 3 hours from home.    I wasn't allowed to visit as often as I wanted, and I couldn't call home because he said he couldn't afford the long distance fees.  I felt isolated.  I started seeking friendship via the internet, but ended up having an affair.  Those "friends" who knew of the affair were the ones to told my ex.  To this day, I thank them for their lack of trustworthiness.  They were my way out.  We continued to live together for another year and a half on separate floors of the house, until I had a job and the house sold.  I rented the best home I could afford, a nasty run down hut.  My heating bill was over $300.00 per month!  While he earned 5 times what I was earning, I struggled to get by and to make my daughters life a good one. 

In July of 2000, I got an email from someone who knew my sister's name, the nature of my father's business, and various other things about me.  He actually thought he had located my sister, with whom he went to school.  Turns out, he's now my husband.  I have had a crush on him since I was 6 years old!  Naturally, my daughter and I moved back home to live in the home that he owns.  I was promoted and got a transfer with my company. 

Moving forward, my ex has abused me through the legal system.  He knows that our money is tight, while he pays very little child support.  Having to pay attorneys fees was eating us alive.  He nearly got custody simply because I could not afford an attorney.  Meanwhile, he had turned his abuse toward my daughter.  Pinching bruises on her neck, punching her in the eye, and slamming her backwards into a door jamb.  He has taken nude photos of her, makes her bathe and dress in front of him, and made her share a room with a 16 year old male.  She is in therapy, but after one of his escapades, he petitioned the court for counseling between him and my daughter.  Which meant that I would have to miss a day of work every other week.  My employer could not allow me to do this, so I lost my job.  We are now bankrupt and losing our home.  And he only attended 6 sessions, and now refuses to attend.  He just wanted me to lose my job.  He was hoping that the therapist would see things his way, but it didn't work.  He refused to do anything that therapist said.

On the upside, I never knew I was being abused.  He didn't bother me.  I am better for having gone through that part of my life.  But, now it is time for me to protect my child from that.  I have networked and researched and reached out.  I learned about Guardian ad Litem's, an attorney just for the child/children's best interest.  I requested that one be appointed for my child.  She now has a voice in the courtroom.  I called every attorney who's number I could get and told them my story.  I had it weaned down to the most important details.  (abuse, bruising, documented, and no way to pay, to name a few)  I have finally located an attorney who is helping me at no cost to me up front.  He is going after my ex for his fees, to update child support, and supervised visitation.  Things have already begun to turn around. 

To navigate the legal maze, utilize the states bar associations.  Financial advice....well, you'll have to do whatever you can, even if it ruins you financially.  If possible, a private account where you can stash a few dollars every so often would be helpful.  Use a family members address to keep the statements secret.

As far as being discredited as a mother, unless you are abusing your child, or using drugs and neglecting your child, you will be fine.  Like the other posters have said, scrapbook!!!!!  Start one today.  Journal, start it TODAY.  Start it with recollections of things that have happened in the past, and move forward from there.  Network your family, friends, church, the schools, doctors, etc.  Get notarized statements from them.  It is very hard for a parent to challenge the other's ability to parent.  (in either direction)  It will only make him look like a horse's tail end.  Let him gather away!  But, get yourself and your kids into therapy.  That alone will speak volumes of your motherly love, and document how your kids feel about what their father is doing.  The bonus is that they get help dealing with this.  (ironic, I know!)

In most jurisdictions, you can not get a divorce unless you've lived apart for a set period of time.  The judge may very well make him leave the home for that period of time before awarding you a divorce.  Likewise, the opposite could possibly happen. I would imagine that the judge would leave the mother and children in tact, just don't bank on it.  If possible, have a restraining order issued to get him out of the house.  I agree that the abuser shouldn't be rewarded with keeping the house, cars, etc.  But, if you or your kids are in danger, GET OUT!  It doesn't always mean that you lose the house.  And you may very well be much happier in a new location, maybe closer to family.  Just a tip, do not move out of state for now.  You HAVE to notify your STBX at least 30 days in advance via certified mail of your intent and new address.  If you stay in state, the law is much more lenient.  You can verbally tell him your new address, incorrect as it may be!  <read into that deeply! 

 

I was only on my own for 1 1/2 years.  It was hard.  But I was so happy!  I have very little college education, and had little work experience, and I made it.   If I can do it, you can too! 

 

PS.  Even though we are losing our home...We are getting a great deal on another home twice the size of this one, half the payment, 5 acres, a pond, and a horse barn.  Our dreams are coming true!

Lots of love, hope, and prayers!

 

 

Thelittles,

 

I know how difficult it is to put your life up on a message board in order to help others.  I admire your strength and your compassion.  I admire you sharing this unwanted gift you have been given.  I just read your message on the "Spouse Abuse Forum" and brought it to the front.  I pray that you continue your forward positive outlook and continue to  encourage and inspire the many.

 

To each and everyone that posts a message with information, encouragement and compassion for the many that are hurting,  I pray that you can continue to have the time to do so.  Every little peace of information is a part of the puzzle.  One thought, one view leads to another and so on.

 

peace to all

 

very sincerely...mike

 

 

 
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May 30, 2007, 3:10 pm PDT

for whatineed

Quote From: Pleasance

1-800-799-SAFE

 

National Domestic Abuse Hot-line

 

after initiating that call ... they will direct you to local resources in your area.

 

Support

 

Education on Abuse

 

Support for your children

 

Legal advocacy.

 

The best thing you can do for yourself besides making this call....is personal counseling with a competent counselor that is educated and trained in the dynamics of domestic abuse and violence.

 

Living with your abuser after filing for divorce can be a dangerous situation to say the least.

 

You need a good attorney who is knowledgeable also in the  dynamics of abuse.

 

Often times domestic abuse advocates can work in tandem with atty.

 

What have you done to educate yourself on the abuse and its intricacy?

 

Abusers are well known for attacking you where it hurts the most,   YOUR PARENTING POSITION,  AND ROLE AS A MOTHER .       

 

They are famous for USING THE KIDS TO MANIPULATE, CON, PUNISH AND HURT YOU.

 

 

Good luck.

 

Make some phone calls , use the resources that are out there for you in your communities.

 

Take care.

 

Thank you Pleasance(and momakababe) for the kind words of yesterday.   

 

I also  wanted to bring your post , the post of an angel to the front.   It is a  nice clear summary. I hope our good friend sees it and others as well.

 

God bless you, peace to all

 

very sincerely.....mike

 

 

 
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May 30, 2007, 5:27 pm PDT

05/11 Obsessive Love: On the Run

Quote From: cjs777

I my opinion, for what it's worth to the group.  If  this  group had it's way they would do every thing in their power to make sure this family never operated as a family.  Every situation is unique.  You can't go by your or anyone's else experience.  "What if you are wrong"

  Both should be under Professional care and not listen to this group.

 

"To help others you must have compassion for all"  Think about.

I promised to stop, I really did, but I find you very curious, in one post you think he's nuts, but at the same time you blame her for making him that way ?

A family can operate under different conditions other than Mom and Dad in the same home, it can and DOES work, I do wish the Doc would show more blended and non traditional families that ARE happy and successful, but that's not great for ratings.

Can he be a father to his kids, maybe if he agrees to INTENSIVE and ONGOING therapy, first as an impatient, and then closely MONITORED as an outpatient, with the visits SUPERVISED by an impartial THIRD PARTY ie. a Social Worker, he shouldn't be alone with them unless and UNTIL he PROVES he is no longer a threat whether it be a flight risk, or the risk of violence toward them or their Mother.

Should he be married, Hell no, he's PROVEN TWICE that he is obsessive, the first wife got away, I'm not sure if they had children or not, for the SAME REASON, does Jennifer need intensive therapy, oh yeah, that and some deprogramming might not be a bad idea either, you know what, I will agree that everyone's experience is unique, but there are many cominalities as well,

1)The women on this board who are currently or have lived the experience, speak about being ISOLATED  from friends and family (none of her family at the wedding, not a good sign ).

2)They make claims and accusations of everything from stealing from him to cheating, whether she did or not.

3)They start by saying things in "Jest", and can twist things around so you think YOU are the one going insane (where's your sense of humor I loved so much ?)

4)They CONTROL every aspect of your life, public and private, reading e-mails, checking phone messages, checking cell phone calls and heaven help you if there's a number he does NOT recognize there.  Harassing and threatening co-workers and friends, getting fired from their jobs etc.

So you see, if you READ, I mean REALLY READ the plight of many of the women here, you should see the commonalities of each UNIQUE situation, there have been everything from husband dictating how his wife dresses to full out beatings, but all have enough in common, that yes it is all ABUSE and NO ONE should be forced to live in that situation, no CHILD should have to grow up in that type of toxic environment, and if it means Daddy needs to go away for awhile, so be it.

 
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May 30, 2007, 7:02 pm PDT

You heard that tooo

Quote From: shoyt_2001

 when they have been on Elliot in the Morning in the DC area.  I really hope that Jennifer has been away from Jeffrey long enough, and has had some counseling since the program was done. 

In the interview, she is still making excuses for him, while firmly declaring that she wants out of the marriage.  But she doesn't want to hurt him. 

At the time of that interview she was still not getting the fact that just because you can keep safe for a day, or a week, doesn't mean that the man is not a long term threat.  She was still not seeing Jeffrey as he really is.  I recall going through that same period and it just led to worse things happening. 

You cannot fear and want to get away from a person, at the same time that you are also wanting the best for that same person.  They will turn it against you everytime.  You have to settle on one thought.  Is it your goal to get away safely?  Then that is your goal.  It is up to the other person to take care of their own needs.  You cannot do it for them...and then leave.  Especially not when their stated goal is to keep you trapped.

Jeffrey said, he will do anything as long as it results in my marriage staying intact.  As long as he and Jennifer are still together.  That is his only goal.  Not getting well, not getting help, not getting better, not making his wife happy, not being a good parent, not getting back to work.  He will give up all of that to keep Jennifer married to him. 

Those of you who are in the same situation, I have been there also.  In the end, all I wanted was his focus on anything but me.

You do have to get away safely.  You cannot worry about helping or fixing or mending him first.  It just doesn't work.  You can't even work on yourself while you are going through that process, because you are being controlled by someone else. 

It has been weeks since this series ran but did anyone else notice that Jeffrey's eyes turned bright blue whenever he thought he wasn't going to get his way?  I've seen that before more than once.   Bright blue eyes meant there was going to be payback and no one would know when it was coming. 

    I heard Elliott in the Morning in D.C. Did jennifer actually call in to that show.

    The only thing I heard was Elliott calling him SLAPSHOT

  Did Elliott mention how he got that name...........

 
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May 30, 2007, 7:33 pm PDT

Mascot for hockey team

Quote From: BrianX29

    I heard Elliott in the Morning in D.C. Did jennifer actually call in to that show.

    The only thing I heard was Elliott calling him SLAPSHOT

  Did Elliott mention how he got that name...........

He makes and works as one of those cartoonish figures sports teams use for mascots.  San Diego chicken comes to mind.

 

 

 
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May 30, 2007, 8:11 pm PDT

Jeffrey's actions

It is a blessing that Jeffrey contacted Dr. Phil.  I think Jeffrey was crying out for help and Dr. Phil put a stop to Jeffrey's irrational behavior.  I believe Jeffrey's behavior would have shown up and tormented any woman he married.  He must be taught to own his behavior; to stop blaming his behavior on something the wife said or did.

Has anyone out there heard of Assertiveness Training?  The teacher gave a handout of a wheel with all these emotions printed around the spokes.  I was surprised to learn there are so many emotions!  They teach how to label what we are feeling and how to respond in a positive way.  We were taught new responses to emotions and play acted out those situations in class.  It was such a fine learning experience.  Dr. Phil, are you familiar with it?

 
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May 30, 2007, 10:16 pm PDT

I agree that change can happen

Quote From: ceildh1

I promised to stop, I really did, but I find you very curious, in one post you think he's nuts, but at the same time you blame her for making him that way ?

A family can operate under different conditions other than Mom and Dad in the same home, it can and DOES work, I do wish the Doc would show more blended and non traditional families that ARE happy and successful, but that's not great for ratings.

Can he be a father to his kids, maybe if he agrees to INTENSIVE and ONGOING therapy, first as an impatient, and then closely MONITORED as an outpatient, with the visits SUPERVISED by an impartial THIRD PARTY ie. a Social Worker, he shouldn't be alone with them unless and UNTIL he PROVES he is no longer a threat whether it be a flight risk, or the risk of violence toward them or their Mother.

Should he be married, Hell no, he's PROVEN TWICE that he is obsessive, the first wife got away, I'm not sure if they had children or not, for the SAME REASON, does Jennifer need intensive therapy, oh yeah, that and some deprogramming might not be a bad idea either, you know what, I will agree that everyone's experience is unique, but there are many cominalities as well,

1)The women on this board who are currently or have lived the experience, speak about being ISOLATED  from friends and family (none of her family at the wedding, not a good sign ).

2)They make claims and accusations of everything from stealing from him to cheating, whether she did or not.

3)They start by saying things in "Jest", and can twist things around so you think YOU are the one going insane (where's your sense of humor I loved so much ?)

4)They CONTROL every aspect of your life, public and private, reading e-mails, checking phone messages, checking cell phone calls and heaven help you if there's a number he does NOT recognize there.  Harassing and threatening co-workers and friends, getting fired from their jobs etc.

So you see, if you READ, I mean REALLY READ the plight of many of the women here, you should see the commonalities of each UNIQUE situation, there have been everything from husband dictating how his wife dresses to full out beatings, but all have enough in common, that yes it is all ABUSE and NO ONE should be forced to live in that situation, no CHILD should have to grow up in that type of toxic environment, and if it means Daddy needs to go away for awhile, so be it.

but the person has to really want to change & Jeffrey just doesn't want that.  I think that Jeffreyspent so much time at home that he must have heard Dr. Phil's phylosophy (sp?) on a person who cheats & hears him saying each has to own their own part in what's wrong in a marriage etc. etc.  & he thought that Dr. Phil would be the 1 therapist that would back up what he was saying & give him permission to continue to "track Jennifer" like a prison guard.  I think Dr. Phil is well informed on the subject of abuse & asked the correct questions that give the answers to certain things that are tell tail signs of an abuser.  I find it just *amazing* that the answers Dr. Phil got from Jeffrey put him in a place where the "signs of abuse" are almost all described.  If you go to Lundy Bancroft's web site he speaks on many of the very things that Dr. Phil covered.   He also speaks of the abilities of abusers to "use therapists & counselors who don't have that much experience with abusers.  Sadly they're such good cons they actually learn psyhological terms & the like to use at other times &/or in their manipulation of the next therapist & as ammo at the victim.   IMO I think Dr. Phil & the center he was using was *right on* in their approach to Jeffrey & they were so all over this that is the reason Jeffrey bolted because he was never serious about "getting help"  the idea of him going there was nothing more than a bargaining chip to have his wife go home with him at some point.  He wasn't seeking help because he thought there was a "compulsion" or because he thought there was anything wrong with him or what he was doing.  And like others 1 minute he'd be saying he's got an "obsession & can't help himself or stop himself" & then in his next breath he'd blame the behavior on Jennifer & say it's hell having to live like I do & I promise I could & would stop".  Dr. Phil knew Jeffrey was just saying anything he thought would have Dr. Phil let him off the hook of having to admit what he did was wrong & due to nothing but Jeffrey & Jeffrey's actions.   Again I think Dr. Phil knew before Jeffrey went in that therapy wasn't going to help him  because he knew from the answers being given before & after the center program that Jeffrey isn't ill but just someone out to control & abuse. 

 

It's just amazing to me when I see a listing of descriptive traits how "common" they are among these men.  And so here's a listing from Lundy Bancroft from an outline to an article he's writing on assessing change in men who abuse women.  http://www.lundybancroft.com/pages/articles_sub/assessing_change.htm

 

(****  This is an outline for an article I have not yet written, but I thought it might be helpful to people already. ******)

 

by Lundy Bancroft

 

 

 

 

Admitting fully to what he has done

 

Stopping excuses

 

Stopping all blaming of her

 

Making amends

 

Accepting responsibility (recognizing that abuse is a choice)

 

Identifying patterns of controlling behavior, admitting their wrongness

 

Identifying the attitudes that drive his abuse

 

Accepting that overcoming abusiveness will be a decades-long process, not declaring himself cured

 

Not starting to say, “so now it’s your turn to do your work”, not using change as a bargaining chip

 

Not demanding credit for improvements he has made

 

Not treating improvements as chips or vouchers to be spent on occasional acts of abuse (e.g. “I haven’t done anything like this in a long time, so why are you making such a big deal about it?”)

 

Developing respectful, kind, supportive behaviors

 

Carrying his weight

 

Sharing power

 

Changing how he is in highly heated conflicts

 

Changing how he responds to his partner’s (or former partner’s) anger and grievances

 

Changing his parenting

 

Changing his treatment of her as a parent

 

Changing his attitudes towards females in general

 

Accepting the consequences of his actions (including not feeling sorry for himself about those consequences, and not blaming her or the children for them)

 

I just see so many of these that Jeffrey was so far off from even when he was just on the phone with Jennifer.  I mean "she got me locked up here so she could go running around with men now".  ?  Talk about a guy who's blaming her for his consequences.  And Dr. Phil heard this long before the center & such because here was Jeffrey looking so sad as he explaines his behavior in turning up the heat to watch his wife sleep half dressed because then he feels a connection to her & of course that's because she sows him no affection.  & he's crying as he says this & it sounds like she's some kind of horrible beotch but then Dr. Phil askes him "Yes well you've called her a slut, whore, and a bitch & what do you thing the out come of this is going to be?  And admitting that he'd called her all kinds of horrible names Jeffrey's answer is simply "I admit I've done things to keep her where I'm comfortable."  So belittling her & degrading her is to keep him comfortable & if she reacts negatively even if that's with holding affection then he's got the right in his head to do what he wants to have a physical connection.  He does what he wants & it's like the listing on the emotional abuse board i that he's got his own warped way of reasoning & it's she doesn't like it that's too bad. 

 

I watched my sister for years say "every child should be able to know both parents & have them as an active part of their life"  and she would deal with her ex as best she could so that my nephew would have his father weekly.  It was an older family friend that had advised her that "every child should be able to know both parents & have them as an active part of their lives".  When I look at my husband & the *real men* around me who are *real fathers* I tend to aggree with the statement and I think it creul to deny the child or the father having each other in one another's life.   However when it comes to abuse I'm not sure I really agree with that any longer & I think the courts are very nieve to think that any child is safe when their father (or mother for that matter) is abusive to the spouse.  My nephew was developmentally disabled & he never really understood what was happening even though he understood the "anger & fear".  at the age of 33 now he is at a reasoning of about a 5 yr. old now & frankly I always felt that when he came back from my BIL the verbal & emotional abuse in just the meeting to drop off & pick up was an emotional abuse that has created frustration, anger and tantrums in him now.  Like a little kid he mirrors what he sees in the adults around him & he sounds just like them!  Some times I think if a abused parent escapes her abuser to further expose the child to the abuser is in a way neglectful & abusive in itself.  And then I see your post & your instincts are so dead on in your view of this person you're addressing & you're still trying to reason & you're so civil & you're compassion & desire to do what's right (allow a father access to a child in a very controled & safest way) just speaks to  me & inspires me to want to have that compassion too.  Of course that's because we have reason & ryhm to us & we're not abusers.  Like you I want to believe that a person can turn themself around & miricales happen etc.  But when I see a person so hurtful to the very people he's suppose to protect & love & all so he can dominate.  I just thinkthey're a completely different species than us.  Seeing the destruction that's left in their wake effects the victims & those watching the victims being victimized & so when I see the ladies here it slaps right back to me having to verbally remind my sister that "No your husband didn't slap you silly because you told him to pick up his own clothes" & even with therapy it just took a very long time with many around her continually reminding her that "he was an abuser & you didn't cause it".  And so then I realize that even for *me* after all these years I'm still doing that verbally cheering to undo the brainswashing of "you're nothing".  We're all effected & for me it's being here going on this long long rant.  I hope you don't mind my rant here but I'd been a bit frustrated & think I just needed to voice this some where.  :)  I've seen your posts in the past & figured you'd understand.  :) 

 
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May 30, 2007, 10:20 pm PDT

05/11 Obsessive Love: On the Run

Quote From: mike34758

 

Thank you Pleasance(and momakababe) for the kind words of yesterday.   

 

I also  wanted to bring your post , the post of an angel to the front.   It is a  nice clear summary. I hope our good friend sees it and others as well.

 

God bless you, peace to all

 

very sincerely.....mike

 

 

you are more than welcome sire & it was a rather lovely day today wasn't it?  Oh wait I guess that was yesterday already.  well at any rate it was lovely. 
 
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