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Topic : Toxic Family Relationships
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April 28, 2006, 3:20 am PDT
 Quote From: beertje Let him go. It appears as if he has a personality himself and if he's done nothing to acknowledge his manipulations and behaviors by now, they will very likely never change. It's not worth the pain he'd put you through for the sake of making your father feel better. You're counselor is correct. I would even refuse to accept any cards or gifts that he sends to give him the message that you're no longer accepting his belittling, manipulative words, because he's obviously still getting some kind of thrill out of it. I pity the man who doesn't truly know how to have a relationship with others and all others that are in his life. Beertje,
Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them--very much. And thanks for reading all of that--sorry it was so long.
You know, it never occurred to me to use the word "manipulative" to what my brother was doing--and that's exactly what it is--manipulative and belittling, to hurt me and pull my chain. Thank you for that--very supportive, and helpful: clarifying.
yerba |
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April 28, 2006, 3:30 am PDT
Quote From: jenoc99 It sounds like your brother has real issues, psychological ones, and probably a personality disorder, too. You are better off not having a relationship with him at all, even though it hurts to not have a relationship- you already know it would hurt even more to have one. The things that he has said and done over the years have left lasting scars on your psyche, and he doesn't deserve the power to do that to you any more. When you feel as though your father pressures you to have contact with him, just simply say, "I know dad, we've already talked about this, I don't want to talk about it anymore." Then change the subject. You can't allow your father the power to induce guilt in you or to make you feel badly about this relationship with your brother, because you aren't the one holding the power with your brother. Your brother sounds like a terrible, mean and manipulative person. If he wasn't your brother, would you want anything to do with him? I'm sure you would say no. I know that you are hurting, after all, this is a blood relative- but that doesn't mean its okay for him to treat you so badly or to wish harm on you! (rape, etc.) Its time to take your power back from both of these men. Don't allow anything that is said or done to make you feel that you should change your mind about how you feel towards your brother. Your feelings are valid!! I wish you well. Jenoc,
Thank you for your caring, supportive words, and thanks to you as well for your reading my long post.
You are right--it would hurt more to try to have a relationship with him than not. I do feel very sad about it--but don't know how to get past his behavior. He certainly has never shown any sign of interest in changing.
His words and actions have left scars on my psyche. And you are so right re: my brother holding the power. And thank you for saying he is a terrible, mean, and manipulative person, and for saying that my feelngs are valid. I think you (and Beertje) are the first two people who have ever really said that to me, though to some degree the counselor did. What a relief just to read your words. It's difficult, even when objectively I know that all that you say is true and fair and accurate, when no one ever acknowledges it in one's family. So thank you--very much.
And I appreciate your suggestions about how to cut off my father's comments and the things my brother has sent. I am going to use your advice.
You and Beertje are very kind and skilled "listeners" and helpers.
Thanks so much, yerba |
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April 28, 2006, 7:09 am PDT
Quote From: hurtingurl ummm....ya if i wrote a letter 2 any of my parents they would just say "this is sh**" then throw it away..i know them very very well..unfortunatleywell...things havent gotten better but havent gotten worse..my mom left on monday to go shopping in duluth..she got back wednesday so everything was good around the housemy dad was all nice & everything when she was gone(thats y i think they'd b happier apart)..since she got back it hasnt been so bad..but the worse has yet to comei curaintly started drinking..when i go 2 my friends moms house we drink a lot..its not like we get torked or n e thing..but i do think it has sumthin' to do with my 'family life'well i still dont know what to do with my lifeim also not doing very well in school...well my grades were kinda bad ever since i started highschool(i am now in 11th grade) & i believe there is nothin i can do bout that..no matter how hard i try i still get like a C-D..& im also in 10th grade math& to top it all of i get motion sickness all the time..i've been 2 the dr. many many MANY times..i've had like 2-3 MRI's & they cant find nothin'..i've been getting motion sickness ever since i was like 6..so i also believe that i can never get better from thatmy life is so pathetic...i wiegh bout' 134 & am like 5'6"-5'7" & i think im fat..do u think i need to do like a major turn in life cuz i have no clue what to doi think im fat..dumb..& not worth the time..oh my gosh i cant take this pain any moreso what do u guys think?? Hi, I am so sorry you have to go through this. Im sure your parents don't have a clue how they are effecting you personally.. a letter to them is a good idea or a message on their cell phone.or you could make them sit down and listen to everything.. how you feel about there fighting.. and how it is effecting your life in a bad way. You do need to tell them what they are doing to you emotionally. I am a mom of a 14 yr old going through the same thing, so you have opened my eyes to how he is effected. My husband is angry at me and him for no reason.. so my hubby is constanatly on the defensive with us both. and he starts fights out of the blue. I try so hard to just ignore his rudeness to me but cannot stand for it for our son.. so I try to make him see what he is doing and thats when the yelling really gets going.. I know to you there is no excuse for this fighting.. and there really isn't . I know first hand how misreable it makes life. All I can tell you is.. learn from their mistakes so you can have a happy life and hang in there you will be old enough to move out on your own in a few years and you can make your own life the way you want it. This is just a very small part of your life so hang in there and do not even take the fighting personally. You need to remember that parents are learning as they go too and we make mistakes big and small too. It's not like we did this before.being a parent or a spouse so it is all new to us too. Unfortunatly some people young or old let their negative attitudes effect the ones they love. Just keep a positive attitude and remember something my mom always says.."THIS TO SHALL PASS" AND IT WILL! Before ya know it you'll be living your own life and you can make it as happy as you want. Just live your life surrounded by positive happy people once your out on your own. Just think about it.. out of say 80 yrs of life this was only your first 20.. ya got 60+ years to make it right for your life. Till then hang in there.. As for your car sickness problem.. I am 48 and have had motion sickness my entire life.. I even get sick playing PS2 sometimes when the screen is moving fast. Here are some tips that I have learned through my life of motion sickness.. a biggy .. don't eat or drink sweets when traveling..that is the worst mistake... drink water and eat like chips or peanuts.. watch the road ahead... do not read while riding. stay cool a little air blowing in your face helps. If ya want to go to a amusment park and ride some rides.. take " Dramamine" a motion sickness med. If your going to go on a trip take it then too. or their are wrist bands that work real good that puts pressure on certain points of your wrists and helps great. I believe it is an equallibruim thing and some people have the problem and some don't... As for you being fat.. oh no way.. your wieght according to your height proves that. if you dont feel buff try excercise not only will it tighten you up but mentally it helps you feel better about yourself and life and at the same time you are working out stress... Never give up. If things aren't the way ya want them now they will be.. As far as your grades.. all you can do is try. Maybe ask the teachers to help ya out after class or get extra credits. School is hard now a days, I can see how it would be hard to keep the grades up. But you can show you are trying and the teachers see you trying .. they will be more inclined to help you. That is why they are there. Grades to not determine if you are dumb or not. Once school is over there are no grades in life. When you are bummed it makes everything in life harder to tackle.. So try to think positive.. learn from your mistakes and others. Keep up a good attitude no matter what. A good attitude helps you tackle anything in life...a bad one just makesit harder. In your message you sounded so depressed. maybe you could go talk to someone about everything you are going through. You are not fat or dumb.. you are confused and depressed. It sounds like your self confidence is at a low. so work on that.. if life is overwhelming.. just focas at one thing at a time accomplish and move on to the the next.. When your bummed it makes everything seem worst than it is. YOU ARE WORTH THE TIME AND DON"T FORGET IT> Sit down with your Mom and tell her how you feel.. all of it.. she can't help if she dosnt know about it. And being a Mom I would want to know if my child felt this way about all of this. As moms we want our kids to be happy more than anything else. Just dont ever give up. this part of your life will be over in so few years and there is such a wonderful life out there for you to live. Just live it with a positive loving attitude. Stay strong in heart and soul and you can tackle anything.. ok... love yourself ! take care! hope this helped.. |
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April 28, 2006, 1:03 pm PDT
Quote From: yerba1 I am in my early 40s and have not talked to my brother basically since our mother died when I was 21. My brother is three years older than me. He is my only sibling.
My brother is so emotionally cruel, and on purpose, that I gave up trying to communicate with him 22 years ago. He has never shown any expression of remorse for it, or of wanting to behave differently. The only contact I've had from him, he continues to pretend as if he is not playing a game--which is the majority of the game.
My brother told me many times, as we were growing up, that he always resented my being born. He never forgot that year I was born, when there were fewer presents under the Christmas tree, and only half were for him.
He constantly reminded me of that over the years, how my being born ruined his Christmas, and ruined his life, he would tell me.
My brother continually beat me up and was very mean to me when we were growing up. He would laugh while hitting me, acting like he was playing, with one knuckle extended, to make me bruise.
The other kids at school, and my teachers, noticed I had bruises all over my arms and legs. He told embarassing personal stories about me to other kids in his classes, and always let them know he hated his sister and didn't want me around. The older kids in school, as a result, his classmates, always ridiculed and heckled me.
When he was going to be a senior in high school, and I was going to be a frosh, he told me that I was to never speak to him at school or be around him--it would embarass him in front of his friends.
When he was a sophomore in high school, and I was in 7th grade, he took Psychology. One day in his class, the teacher taught the kids how to play psychological games on people. My brother came home from school that night, and told us all about it at dinner.
He told us how the teacher had explained the term "gaslighting," from an old movie (I forget the movie--I think it was a Bette Davis film.) "Gaslighting" was used in the movie to play tricks on someone (I think it was on Davis) until it drove the person crazy.
I still remember him getting very animated and excited, and how he was laughing, telling us about how "gaslighting" worked.
From that night on, he began to play those games on me. He substituted those games for physically beating me up. I could never recall what all the games were that he had told us about. All I knew was that he was trying to drive me up the wall, to upset and hurt me, and make me feel crazy, and appear crazy to others, including to our parents, by trying to make me angry to my wits' end. He would laugh and grin when he got to me, and just do those games more and more.
He told his friends about it, and they began to join in, doing the same thing too, at school and when they came over.
One of the games was to say the opposite of everything he meant--with a broad grin. He would say, "That's a REALLY nice outfit you're wearing!!," in an exaggerated, artificial tone of voice. "Gee, I LOVE your haircut!" Or he would make fun of my environmentalism, saying, "Gee, more people should hug trees. I think it's great you love trees. I love whales, don't you?", etc. Especially in response to anything I ever said about recycling, animal rights, conservation, feminism, anything.
And he would constantly say, "I LOVE you SO MUCH!! Why am I upsetting you? I'm not trying to upset you--I LOVE you! Is this upsetting you? Is it getting to you? And if so, why? I'm not trying to--I LOVE you!"
The thing was, he wouldn't let up. No matter what I said, or didn't say at all, he would keep making these sarcastic remarks, even following me around the house to do this, until he got under my skin. He never stopped. That is all he would say to me, morning, noon, and night. Always laughing, and grinning, and insisting he meant what he was saying.
Whenever I asked him to stop, either nicely, or would get angry, or would even cry, or yell or throw things, he would just say, "What's your problem? Is this getting to you? Why is this bothering you? I'm not mocking you! I mean every word of what I'm saying!"
In his mocking tone, of course, with a broad grin on his face, and a laugh.
I could never figure out how to get him to stop.
He got to the point where he would say these things in a more and more subtle tone, so that almost no one else would realize he was being sarcastic, except some of his friends--but he'd be using the same phrases he'd said in a more exaggerated tone before, so of course he was sending *me* the message that he was still being sarcastic, and oftentimes others wouldn't realize it.
Even though my parents would hear it, and saw this pattern evolve, they would forget how it started, and they would sometimes even say to me, "(my real name), he says he loves you! Why is this bothering you?"
Even though they had heard him trying to upset me over the years, and I had told them how upsetting it was. After awhile, it was as if they had bought into his act.
Of course, he wasn't doing it to them, so they didn't understand what it felt like, to be on the receiving end of it.
Day and night. Week after week, year after year, he made these comments. He did this dozens of times a day, every day, for nine years. By the time I was in early college, I had just withdrawn from him. I avoided all interaction with him possible.
It had long since gotten to the point that every comment he made to me was sarcastic, made in that mocking tone. I couldn't have a single conversation without him purposely mocking me every sentence, with a grin on his face. He could see it always grating on my nerves, and he had a field day with every minute of it.
No matter how much I tried to not let it bother me, or show that it was, he would keep pressing until he could see it upset me.
Everything I cared about, he made fun of. My chosen major in college. My friends, my lovers, my interests, my beliefs, my passions. Even my fears and heartaches. All of them were the subject of sarcastic, feigned interest and enthusiasm. Always saying the opposite of what he meant. Always mocking.
Because every sentence of his to me was the opposite of what he meant, was a mocking comment, there was no opportunity to have a sincere conversation with him about anything. Period. So I finally gave up.
I moved home, after the end of a quarter at college (my junior year), temporarily, and our mother found out three days later she had lung cancer. She was given 6 months to two years to live. She died in six months.
Of course, after finding out about her cancer, I stayed home to be with her. My brother, who still lived at home, never lifted a finger to help. He began working more than 40 hours per week, and would take off all weekend to go sailing. My father had shacked up with a new girlfriend he insisted was a platonic "roommate" at his business condo in southern California, six days per week, while my mother was dying. A woman came in to help me with the house and with mom, as I was devasted and a wreck over my mother's failing health and the prospect of losing her.
When I asked my brother how he could be so callous about Mom, and his never being home with her or helping her or me out, he said, "You can't let it upset you! I wrote her off as dead the day we found out she had cancer." And he would go back to playing with his sailboats, all weekend. I'd be thinking I'd finally get a break on the weekend, when he'd be home, and then I'd hear him hitching up a boat to his trailer and leaving early Saturday mornings at 7 a.m., for the weekend. He'd come home late Sunday night, avoiding everything.
The day our mother died, I forced myself to go out to dinner that night with my brother and father, not being able to stand being with either one of them, for even a moment. We went to a place with a salad bar.
As we sat down at a table with our salads, I remember my brother starting the conversation, laughing, with, "Hey, did you hear the one about the black guy that ..." blah, blah, blah. He said that just to piss me off, because he knew it was a mockery of my feelings about racism. We weren't raised that way. Our mother had died, just hours earlier, and he was saying such a thing. Already on the attack.
A few weeks later, there were several rapes in our neighborhood. Yet my brother would leave for work early in the morning, while I was still in bed, asleep--and he would leave the front door wide open.
When I confronted him about it, he told me he was doing it on purpose. He said, with a big grin on his face, "You think everyone wants to rape you." (Our father had molested me growing up.) I threw a bowl of cereal on him.
That was basically the last time I had anything to do with my brother.
After a long time, I began to be in contact with my father again, and he and I have a sometimes caring, often times acrimonious and underlying very difficult relationship, as he refuses to even admit he has molested me.
But I am in contact with him as he is the only relative I have left, and I still deal with chronic grief over my mother. I lean on him very heavily, and have a very hard time being independent, including financially.
It's like I'm still looking for someone to lean on, since my mother died. I didn't feel ready to be on my own. I felt orphaned. Not still a child, but not ready to be a completely independent adult. My young friends didn't understand, or know how to help. My mom was like my security blanket, my rock. The confidence and independence I'd had as a young adult vanished the day she found she had a lung tumor--the moment she told me. ** Dealing with my father is less cruel than dealing with my brother.
Occasionally my father has forwarded a card from my brother. The cards always say, "I want to have a relationship with you. You're my sister--and after all, I LOVE you!!"
And my father passes on an occasional message from my brother: "Your brother asked me to tell you he loves you."
Years ago, a shrink said to me that as long as my brother has no intention of saying what he really means, of always mocking me, always saying the opposite thing in that mocking, sarcastic tone, there is no chance of having a real relationship with him.
I don't know what to do about this. I haven't spoken to him in 22 years.
My father is always pressing me to contact my brother again, to have a relationship with him, despite my having told all of this to my father.
It hurts that I have this brother out there who I can't have anything to do with, because all he wants to do is mock and hurt me.
Whenever I asked him to stop being sarcastic, to stop mocking me, to say what he means, he would always say, with a big Cheshire cat grin, "I am! I love you! Why do you think I'm mocking you? Does it bother you?
Suggestions, anyone? (As long as it isn't something cruel/stupid, such as that I not "let" my brother's behavior bother me, or to contact my brother and try to pretend it doesn't!)
Thanks. Yerba,
Your councilor/ therapist is right. So long as your brother wants to be sarcastic to you and you cant have a real conversation you cant have a relationship as equals. To be frank, based on your fathers denial of the behavoir and his molestation I am suprised you can talk to him either.
From my point of view... and I am not an expert What you have here is a self esteem issue.
Its difficult to face when your family isnt supportive and cant ever be.
I read somewhere that many families are made up of people who are not blood relatives. Some rifts are to big to mend. BTW if your brother really wanted to mend that rift, he would change his methods or ask you why you didnt speak. His messages through your father are to taunt you more. You need to tell your father directly you dont want to hear anything your brother says about you good or bad from him. If your father dosent listen, end the conversation, leave the room, or completely vacate the meeting.
People dont take you seriously until you make them take you seriously.
As for your brother. He continues to taunt because you continue to react. When you no longer react, its no fun. Not being present is one way to deny him. Better yet, only allowing him to react with you in front of other people who are not family will moderate his behavoir. Invite him to dinner with your friends on your turf and you will have him at the disadvantage. Prep your close friends first to be friendly but direct in giving your brother a taste of his own medicine ( or invite him on the DR Phil show... I am sure Phil will know exactly how to "give it to him".
I have to run for lunch.
- Susan
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April 28, 2006, 1:45 pm PDT
I am a 46-year-old woman. Fairly successful artist, but as one would expect in that field, not well off financially. Have raised 3 kids and mentored many of their friends. Am enjoying menopause and life thanks to a lot of hard work and Dr Phil. My husband and I have been following the Life laws and have been doing well with them. Both of us come from less than Ideal families. Okay… strange families filled with dysfunction. My husband’s was abusive drinkers… mine was just simply bizarre. Poke salad Annie kind of things. People actually laugh when I tell them my stories. That’s all right… it would make a great sit-com… along the lines of the “My Name is Earl” show. I am all right with that most of the time. It just is what it is. When my husband and I started a family, we both decided that if we couldn’t have the parents we wanted, then we would BE the parents we wanted(actually put it that way before I heard Dr. Phil say it). Worked out all right considering we had had no real life role models to speak of. I think the biggest influence on this has been Dr Suess, Oprah and Dr. Phil. They became my surrogate My latest struggles with my Mom are not funny though. I have struggled with writing this for months. Have struggled with my feeling for years. Have been chasing this “dawg” around the same bush for far too long.
I fully realize my Mom gave me better than she got. My mother married at 12, had me at 14 (to fix everything… HA!), and divorced at 18. She had a 3rd grade education and worked her way through school to become a nurse… where she met and married her current (3rd) husband. An obnoxious jerk that has taken every opportunity to make sure my brother and I were always well aware that we were only the Step kids. Made sure I was aware I was good for only one thing and that my brother wasn’t good for anything. Well… I can deal with that. Don’t have any respect for him so; don’t hold much stock in his opinions. The problems arise when I try to maintain a relationship with my Mom. Most of the time I just don’t let her put me in a position where I have to deal with him. Every once in awhile I screw up and take her at face value though. The worst time was when I let my son work for them one summer. They are essentially carneys. My son was 14 and beginning to be a troublemaker. He has always been headstrong and puberty was a nightmare. When I was at my wits end my Mom offered to take him. I let him go for one reason only. He thought we were such terrible parents I thought it would be good for him to see where I came from and how different his life was from mine. It was and it wasn’t a good idea. He came back home with a better appreciation for what we had given him and how hard it was to make the life we had out of nothing. The cost for that lesson was too great. While he was working, Mom fell seriously ill. That left my stepfamily to watch out for my son. Their employee, a 30 year old man, harassed my son, threatened him sexually (did not act on it thank god), made my son a bet that he could make him cry like a girl and proceeded to hold him down and burn him with a lighter while my step brother watched. My stepfamily and my Mom spent 2 weeks telling him I would side with them and that he brought it all on himself. When he told me about it, I of course sided with him, called the police and they all lied to protect this pedophile monster. I let it go because it would have been more harmful to my son to push the issue than to just move forward. The police could do nothing although they believed my son. I made my feelings very plain, but backed off to protect my son from my step family. A short while later my Mom fired the man. Since Mom had little chance of surviving her heart problems, I maintained a relationship with her, but kept the others at a distance. Mom has made an almost miraculous recovery. Is not only NOT dead but doing some incredible things like hang gliding and touring Mexico. She started counselling… I thought she was going to make the most of her second chance at life. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. Last year, my stepfamily rehired the pedophile. I made it clear to my Mom I wasn’t going to go any where near this creep. She had respected that and made arrangements to see me without making an issue of it until just recently. Unexpectedly, they called and asked me to come out to their house. When I asked my Stepbrother if the creep would be there, he answered yes. I heard my Mom’s husband say she just needs to “get over it”. Then my Mom gets on and repeats what he said word for word. I completely lost it! Told her “NO, I didn’t have to get over it”. If they wanted to live with criminals and pedophiles, that was their choice and they didn’t have any right to make that choice for me; also told her to shove it in a very graphic and unkind way. I am so angry that she doesn’t understand why this is so offensive to me. Also that she once again sides with my stepfamily and makes me out to be wrong because I am not getting into line. I am even angrier that I didn’t push things when the whole incident happened. How could someone be so stupid as to let something like this go? After all the unkind, ignorant, hateful things these people have done to me, how could I have tried to forgive her for what they did to my son? Where is the line between being stupid and forgiveness? So… could somebody out there tell me how to put my feelings straight… Or do I just have to feel this way until I don’t feel this way anymore?
Am I happy or am I right? Is it possible to be both?
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April 28, 2006, 10:58 pm PDT
Quote From: suemanley1 Yerba,
Your councilor/ therapist is right. So long as your brother wants to be sarcastic to you and you cant have a real conversation you cant have a relationship as equals. To be frank, based on your fathers denial of the behavoir and his molestation I am suprised you can talk to him either.
From my point of view... and I am not an expert What you have here is a self esteem issue.
Its difficult to face when your family isnt supportive and cant ever be.
I read somewhere that many families are made up of people who are not blood relatives. Some rifts are to big to mend. BTW if your brother really wanted to mend that rift, he would change his methods or ask you why you didnt speak. His messages through your father are to taunt you more. You need to tell your father directly you dont want to hear anything your brother says about you good or bad from him. If your father dosent listen, end the conversation, leave the room, or completely vacate the meeting.
People dont take you seriously until you make them take you seriously.
As for your brother. He continues to taunt because you continue to react. When you no longer react, its no fun. Not being present is one way to deny him. Better yet, only allowing him to react with you in front of other people who are not family will moderate his behavoir. Invite him to dinner with your friends on your turf and you will have him at the disadvantage. Prep your close friends first to be friendly but direct in giving your brother a taste of his own medicine ( or invite him on the DR Phil show... I am sure Phil will know exactly how to "give it to him".
I have to run for lunch.
- Susan
Susan,
I have already told my father in no uncertain terms I don't want to get any more messages about my brother, or receive anything from him. My father generally respects that, but once in a blue moon, he brings this up. He doesn't belabor it, because I cut it off quickly. I cannot prevent what comes out of my father's mouth once every few years.
My father's perspective is that everyone should get along and not have rifts, and of course, that is nonsense without people being willing to deal with the issues involved.
I thought your comments were very judgmental--and without foundation. I didn't appreciate your telling me you think I have a self-esteem problem. I don't think you have any basis for making that judgment. I have cut my brother off for 22 years. That's self-esteem. And I have told my father, plenty, I don't want to hear messages from my brother. That's self-esteem. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize my brother is continuing to try to use my father to get at me. Again, I cannot prevent my father from ever saying anything to me again about it. He wants to see everyone get along and be together again, but he is overly simplistic and in denial about the way my brother treats me.
I have cut my father out of my life for many years at a time. I have stood up to him plenty. I continue to. You have no idea.
I heard my counselor's advice. However, I do think it's simplistic, as well. People are not robots. I continue to have feelings, and I think if there are ways to deal with people that can resolve a problem, that is the most mature thing to do.
That's what I was looking for when I wrote to the board: to see if anyone had any other ideas about how to deal with it, as well as, I realize now, to perhaps just receive some understanding for what I experienced growing up, and the emotional tug of war of both not wanting the rift to be permanent, if that's at all possible, and protecting myself emotionally by avoiding him the rest of my life if that's what I need to do.
Obviously, my brother has not had the maturity or sincerity to ask why I have cut him off. I get that. There is a part of me that still wonders if there is a better way to handle things. I think your suggestion to invite my brother to my turf, with my acquaintances might be a good strategy. I thank you for that.
Is it painful that my father refuses to acknowledge what he did to me? You bet. But it is up to me to decide what is worthwhile for me. And for me, at this point, having limited contact with my father feels best. Not pain free, but better than not having contact with him.
I felt attacked by that comment about self-esteem.
Overall, did your comments help?
No, because that comment/insult about self-esteem hurt. Not validating or supportive.
See how I can stand up for myself? That's self-esteem.
yerba |
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April 29, 2006, 11:43 am PDT
I have noticed in the past few months, my toxic relationship with my father has torn my loving relationship apart at the seams. To sum up my father he's a drunk, absent, in denial, vengeful, and the epitomy of disfunction.
I moved away from him at age 10 but by then the damage was mostly done. I was told i was a mistake, in those exact words, I was a liar and the best one "just like my mother". I saw him two weekends a month and every other holiday and i was the only one out of his 3 step-kids and his two biological kids, that was blamed for the dog not being fed or the bathroom in disarray. My stepmother called me every name under the sun and even threatened me with explusion from the family if I was to stay a "bratty little b****". Of course I spit out some razor sharp words and got a mouth pop for it. No tears, no pain, just solid rage sat in the pit of my stomach dying for a release in my hands too. She did it why couldn't I? Dad did it too, why can't I? I tried my hardest my entire life to never be like them. Until the day i got angry at someone and shoved my fist through a wall. I realized I had become them.
I remined single for a long time until I was just over 21 years old. I met the "supposed" love of my life...we got engaged...planned for the house...then he backhanded my 3 lb. puppy into a wall. The utter confusion, torment and fear welled up so fast i didn't even feel it coming, i just felt nausious. I smoothed things over, like i did as a child, convinced him to take me home with my puppy (who is fine by the way), i grabbed her crate and told him never to come near me again. End of that relationship but the beginning of more self-doubt.
For the next year and half, I vigorously did self-analysis, saw many councelors, whom by the way were easy to manipulate. I've been great at manipulation ever since I demanded that I blend in to avoid more punishment. The only person to help me was my older brother. He shielded me as much as he could. He took a lot for it too. He even stayed behind to allow my mother and I to move away. That was when i found out that my father didn't even fight to keep me around or in the same state because he wanted his $400 a month child support back. I was sold out for $400 a month. That deep seated anger then turned to rage then turned to fear then turned to hatered and disgust. How could someone sell out thier "baby girl"? Mom had always told me all Dad wanted was a dark haired, blue eyed baby girl...he got one and sold her for $400 a month!?
Summer '04 i met the most wonderful man I had ever laid eyes upon. He was strong, independant, confident and an adrenaline junky like myself. I met him while I was skydiving. I was about as self-destructive as they come then. I was racing (without helmets) on bikes or cars, but i had given up my drug habit (cocaine). I quit taking my "meds" for ADHD and depression because I had a panic attack and overdosed. Too easy to get and swallow with a prescription. I did everything I could to shock everyone i met. I was covered in tattoos, pierced up, vulgar, rude, and most of all not afraid of dying. Better yet, i had a death wish.
I have since calmed down, still refuse to take my "meds", gave up caffiene, soda, drinking and my beloved cigarettes. I have learned to write everything down on paper. Feelings, emotions, daily errands, chores etc. Notebooks, legal pads and pens are extremely abundant at my house...Office max loves me! hahaha!
But since i met that wonderful man, I watched how my vengfulness against the supposed one man who was to teach me all i needed to know about men (ok not all but most), destroyed my relationship. I am extremely emotional, hypersensative, moody, vengeful and most of all cold and distant. I have done the relationship rescue, love smart and a few other books not by Dr. Phil to help gain the confidence that my father so easily destroyed as a child. I love my boyfriend with every ounce of my being but something in my head keeps telling me that every nice thing or sweet thing my boyfriend says, there is going to be pain with it. "one cannot have pleasure without pain". I also noticed that i gave up who i was, what i like and how comfortable i used to be in my own skin. I still love my tattoos don't get me wrong, but sometimes i wish i could get a new body, new family, new life, new chance to get it right. Is it because my father has set a deep seated trap in my brain? Is it because i was always punished because i am almost a carbon copy of my mother? (which God bless that woman, she tried to put together the shattered pieces of my heart every week when i came back home. I know it must have torn her apart. But she did the absolute best she could and wouldn't ever give up on me, even now. She is a blessing!) How does one move on and learn to have a valuable, respectable and loving relationship after being defeated for so many years? How can i stop punishing him for slight of tounge or for just being a guy? How do i get rid of the hate that keeps my head under water?
I recently told my father to take me out of his will, never contact me, and pretty much write me off like he did so many years ago. I told him everything i felt towards him. I wrote it all out in about 5 pages. I got a response about a month later. A sheet with 5 lines and a trinket. He told me that what i said hurt his feelings, none of what i said ever happened and "here's a trinket for your collection". Now it had masking tape on it to tell me how to get it open. It's like i was still 8 or something. Like he still saw me as a blithering moron. I have owned and operated my own business for almost 2 years now, baught a brand new car before i was 21 and moved out by 23. I've tried my whole life to perservere and become a loving, healthy, successful woman. But i told him he hurt me and sent me a friggin' trinket! I've thought about writing to him again and trying to get the last word, or sending the trinket back. I know what ever it is i have to do, i need to do it soon before i completely destroy the man i love the way that i was. I have pushed him to the red zone and kept him there then stopped and became cold. I must figure this out. someone please help me with advice, your story, tips, anything. i'm afraid i'll loose my love forever. I'm terrified if i ever decide to have children i will do the same to them also. (my father is the reason i've decided against it. I'm afraid he'd tear them apart too. More than that, I fear I will become just like him. no one deserves that, so not having kids is the only protection "they" have right now.)
How does one stop the negative behaviors associated with being the Adult Child of an Alcoholic and have a meaningful realtionship? |
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April 29, 2006, 12:07 pm PDT
Quote From: beadborg I am a 46-year-old woman. Fairly successful artist, but as one would expect in that field, not well off financially. Have raised 3 kids and mentored many of their friends. Am enjoying menopause and life thanks to a lot of hard work and Dr Phil. My husband and I have been following the Life laws and have been doing well with them. Both of us come from less than Ideal families. Okay… strange families filled with dysfunction. My husband’s was abusive drinkers… mine was just simply bizarre. Poke salad Annie kind of things. People actually laugh when I tell them my stories. That’s all right… it would make a great sit-com… along the lines of the “My Name is Earl” show. I am all right with that most of the time. It just is what it is. When my husband and I started a family, we both decided that if we couldn’t have the parents we wanted, then we would BE the parents we wanted(actually put it that way before I heard Dr. Phil say it). Worked out all right considering we had had no real life role models to speak of. I think the biggest influence on this has been Dr Suess, Oprah and Dr. Phil. They became my surrogate My latest struggles with my Mom are not funny though. I have struggled with writing this for months. Have struggled with my feeling for years. Have been chasing this “dawg” around the same bush for far too long.
I fully realize my Mom gave me better than she got. My mother married at 12, had me at 14 (to fix everything… HA!), and divorced at 18. She had a 3rd grade education and worked her way through school to become a nurse… where she met and married her current (3rd) husband. An obnoxious jerk that has taken every opportunity to make sure my brother and I were always well aware that we were only the Step kids. Made sure I was aware I was good for only one thing and that my brother wasn’t good for anything. Well… I can deal with that. Don’t have any respect for him so; don’t hold much stock in his opinions. The problems arise when I try to maintain a relationship with my Mom. Most of the time I just don’t let her put me in a position where I have to deal with him. Every once in awhile I screw up and take her at face value though. The worst time was when I let my son work for them one summer. They are essentially carneys. My son was 14 and beginning to be a troublemaker. He has always been headstrong and puberty was a nightmare. When I was at my wits end my Mom offered to take him. I let him go for one reason only. He thought we were such terrible parents I thought it would be good for him to see where I came from and how different his life was from mine. It was and it wasn’t a good idea. He came back home with a better appreciation for what we had given him and how hard it was to make the life we had out of nothing. The cost for that lesson was too great. While he was working, Mom fell seriously ill. That left my stepfamily to watch out for my son. Their employee, a 30 year old man, harassed my son, threatened him sexually (did not act on it thank god), made my son a bet that he could make him cry like a girl and proceeded to hold him down and burn him with a lighter while my step brother watched. My stepfamily and my Mom spent 2 weeks telling him I would side with them and that he brought it all on himself. When he told me about it, I of course sided with him, called the police and they all lied to protect this pedophile monster. I let it go because it would have been more harmful to my son to push the issue than to just move forward. The police could do nothing although they believed my son. I made my feelings very plain, but backed off to protect my son from my step family. A short while later my Mom fired the man. Since Mom had little chance of surviving her heart problems, I maintained a relationship with her, but kept the others at a distance. Mom has made an almost miraculous recovery. Is not only NOT dead but doing some incredible things like hang gliding and touring Mexico. She started counselling… I thought she was going to make the most of her second chance at life. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case. Last year, my stepfamily rehired the pedophile. I made it clear to my Mom I wasn’t going to go any where near this creep. She had respected that and made arrangements to see me without making an issue of it until just recently. Unexpectedly, they called and asked me to come out to their house. When I asked my Stepbrother if the creep would be there, he answered yes. I heard my Mom’s husband say she just needs to “get over it”. Then my Mom gets on and repeats what he said word for word. I completely lost it! Told her “NO, I didn’t have to get over it”. If they wanted to live with criminals and pedophiles, that was their choice and they didn’t have any right to make that choice for me; also told her to shove it in a very graphic and unkind way. I am so angry that she doesn’t understand why this is so offensive to me. Also that she once again sides with my stepfamily and makes me out to be wrong because I am not getting into line. I am even angrier that I didn’t push things when the whole incident happened. How could someone be so stupid as to let something like this go? After all the unkind, ignorant, hateful things these people have done to me, how could I have tried to forgive her for what they did to my son? Where is the line between being stupid and forgiveness? So… could somebody out there tell me how to put my feelings straight… Or do I just have to feel this way until I don’t feel this way anymore?
Am I happy or am I right? Is it possible to be both?
Coming from a simlar situation as your son, whatever you do, DO NOT put your step family in front of his feelings, emotions, fear, or anger. if you do, that proves to him that he is not as important to you as the jerk that hurt him. Not a good place for him to be. As for your mother situation, she's a grown woman and makes her own decisions. If she chooses that path for herself, she doesn't choose it for you or your children. As far as pushing the issue with charges or what not against the offender, ask your son. It's his demon to fight and possibly confronting the offender may give him some peace, some power back that was stolen, some sort of renewed confidence that was taken away by the offender. I was never given the option but my mother chose me and i will forever be greatful. I will defend her and be greatful for her every day of my life.
Now deciding between your mother and your son is difficult i'm sure. But the question is, in your last confession (many years from now) will you regret not following your mother's antics or not protecting your son? From your son's side, following your mother will probably tear him apart. I'm sure you've started noticing changes in his behavior. Not talking about much, one to two word answers, doesn't want to bring up what happened. Ignoring the problem is the same as not giving him a place to feel safe, protected and valid in his pain and fear. I know, i've battled this my whole life. He thinks no one understands, probably, and that it's his problem to deal with. It may be difficult because he's a teen, but just remind him he can talk to you about it whenever, wherever he feels comfortable. He will shut everyone and everything out until he gets the chance to open up and know that his siblings aren't going to laugh at his tears, his friends won't poke fun, that he can open up about it and get help for it without it destroying his "newly found manhood". Now is the time to teach him he can be a feeling, loving, man without being a calloused, abuseful preditor. This will haunt him and be a demon for him until it's talked about, dealt with and worked on. My vote is for your son, he needs your guidance and love, your mother has found where she wants to be, and it's not your job to save her. She must save herself, but you can help save your son from a life of pain and torment. |
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April 29, 2006, 7:41 pm PDT
Oh, I am scared of this, but here goes.
I am a 43 year old grandmother, and am so worried about 4 of our 20 + grandchildren. My daughter, Jesse, has 2 Girls, 4 and 3, and twin boys that are 15 months. She had the 1st girl (Jen) the beginning of her senior year of high school then reunited with her "1st" love a couple of months before she graduated. After graduation, she moved it Idaho w/ her boyfriend and his family. She then got preg w/ the 2nd girl (Hazel) and came home. Eventually, her b/f and her got back together and were married. Following that, my daughter wanted a boy and they agreed to try 1 more time. They got the twin boys!! (Steven and Cory), she had a c-section for the breach twins, and had her tubes tied. Now, she scares me!! My daughter has a "friend". She spends more quality time w/ him then all 4 of her children combined. He husband(James) knows about most of the situation, but w/ the oldest one not being his, he wont leave her and lose the kids. I am sure that he could get the 3, but our daughter would never let him have the oldest. Our son in law would come here from Idaho every other weekend, and wouldn't even let "J" change the baby's diapers. He said "I only get these 4 days a week with my family, I want to do all I can for them." Jesse took Jen to Las Vegas to visit a friend who was dying. Jim was 1 of Jens primary care givers while Jesse was finishing high school. It was found out later that Jess went out of town w/ her friend, and his son. They all stayed in the same connecting hotel rooms. Jen was not quite 3 @ the time. We, my husband and I, have had 1 grandchild die from "shaken baby" and have lost 3 other grandchildren to adoption into other family's. The pain that we feel is indescribable. We just cant lose any more, not and still be able to keep our lives together. And that is where the problem is. Jesse does not take proper care of any of her children. She refuses to take them all anywhere together w/ just her. In fact, all the kids have Pink Eye right now, and she wouldn't even take then to the walk-in clinic here today because, "I cant take all 4 of them in there by myself". Her house is filthy, and there is no telling what some of the stuff those boys are crawling through is. I work 2 part time jobs, and try to take the kids @ times. It seems that when I do they, she just gets worse. On Christmas day, she took off w/ her b/f and someone else, and went to Utah to be able to SHOP the day after Christmas sales there. She didn't even make a Christmas dinner for her family, or attend one w/ any other family members. Then again, on Good Friday night, she took off w/ her b/f to go to California to help him move his stuff from storage there to here, she did make it back before I got the kids home from Church On Easter, but was so tired from driving that she slept all afternoon. There are lots and lots of things like this, gambling all night and sleeping when she is home w/ her kids. Jen takes more care of the rest of those kids then Jesse does. At 3 she was doing most o the caring for the others when we were not there. She couldn't/cant change diapers, but she has to keep track of where the diapers/wipes are etc. She even got in trouble when her brothers got bad colds because "SHE" left the door open when the boys were dressed only in diapers in the winter. It had nothing to do w/ those kids never being dressed, socked, or shooed. Anyway. our home is not big enough to put 4 children in. We know that because one of our grandsons was put up for adoption by the state of Idaho. He has Muscular Dystrophy, as does his brother. The boys and their 2 sisters were taken from their mother in Idaho during a drug bust/situation. They wanted to keep the kids together, and we wanted them all but the State said no. Not enough "square footage" in our home. So we are afraid to go to the state here. These kids have only my husband, other daughter, and I as being stable in there lives, and I cant/wont take that away!! I believe our son in law would give us custody of the three, but he cant Jen. Those kids need there sister as much as they need adults that will/can care for them as they should be. I know that our family was not even close to perfect when Jess was growing up. I have had problems w/ depression allot. I hate house work, and worked so that I could be around adults sometimes and away from My two girls and my step kids. I like to play nickels at the casino, and love to shop. My husband used to drink, allot @ times, and we had a very rocky few+ years. We have 9 kids that are, his, mine, ours, and theirs. My husband is not Jesse's father, but his name is on her birth certificate, and he has always been there for her. He sees/feels no difference w/t the kids, and loves her as much as the rest. We just don't know what to do. Please someone give me some help!! These baby's need someone smarter and more experience then us. |
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April 30, 2006, 6:49 am PDT
Quote From: gummys Oh, I am scared of this, but here goes.
I am a 43 year old grandmother, and am so worried about 4 of our 20 + grandchildren. My daughter, Jesse, has 2 Girls, 4 and 3, and twin boys that are 15 months. She had the 1st girl (Jen) the beginning of her senior year of high school then reunited with her "1st" love a couple of months before she graduated. After graduation, she moved it Idaho w/ her boyfriend and his family. She then got preg w/ the 2nd girl (Hazel) and came home. Eventually, her b/f and her got back together and were married. Following that, my daughter wanted a boy and they agreed to try 1 more time. They got the twin boys!! (Steven and Cory), she had a c-section for the breach twins, and had her tubes tied. Now, she scares me!! My daughter has a "friend". She spends more quality time w/ him then all 4 of her children combined. He husband(James) knows about most of the situation, but w/ the oldest one not being his, he wont leave her and lose the kids. I am sure that he could get the 3, but our daughter would never let him have the oldest. Our son in law would come here from Idaho every other weekend, and wouldn't even let "J" change the baby's diapers. He said "I only get these 4 days a week with my family, I want to do all I can for them." Jesse took Jen to Las Vegas to visit a friend who was dying. Jim was 1 of Jens primary care givers while Jesse was finishing high school. It was found out later that Jess went out of town w/ her friend, and his son. They all stayed in the same connecting hotel rooms. Jen was not quite 3 @ the time. We, my husband and I, have had 1 grandchild die from "shaken baby" and have lost 3 other grandchildren to adoption into other family's. The pain that we feel is indescribable. We just cant lose any more, not and still be able to keep our lives together. And that is where the problem is. Jesse does not take proper care of any of her children. She refuses to take them all anywhere together w/ just her. In fact, all the kids have Pink Eye right now, and she wouldn't even take then to the walk-in clinic here today because, "I cant take all 4 of them in there by myself". Her house is filthy, and there is no telling what some of the stuff those boys are crawling through is. I work 2 part time jobs, and try to take the kids @ times. It seems that when I do they, she just gets worse. On Christmas day, she took off w/ her b/f and someone else, and went to Utah to be able to SHOP the day after Christmas sales there. She didn't even make a Christmas dinner for her family, or attend one w/ any other family members. Then again, on Good Friday night, she took off w/ her b/f to go to California to help him move his stuff from storage there to here, she did make it back before I got the kids home from Church On Easter, but was so tired from driving that she slept all afternoon. There are lots and lots of things like this, gambling all night and sleeping when she is home w/ her kids. Jen takes more care of the rest of those kids then Jesse does. At 3 she was doing most o the caring for the others when we were not there. She couldn't/cant change diapers, but she has to keep track of where the diapers/wipes are etc. She even got in trouble when her brothers got bad colds because "SHE" left the door open when the boys were dressed only in diapers in the winter. It had nothing to do w/ those kids never being dressed, socked, or shooed. Anyway. our home is not big enough to put 4 children in. We know that because one of our grandsons was put up for adoption by the state of Idaho. He has Muscular Dystrophy, as does his brother. The boys and their 2 sisters were taken from their mother in Idaho during a drug bust/situation. They wanted to keep the kids together, and we wanted them all but the State said no. Not enough "square footage" in our home. So we are afraid to go to the state here. These kids have only my husband, other daughter, and I as being stable in there lives, and I cant/wont take that away!! I believe our son in law would give us custody of the three, but he cant Jen. Those kids need there sister as much as they need adults that will/can care for them as they should be. I know that our family was not even close to perfect when Jess was growing up. I have had problems w/ depression allot. I hate house work, and worked so that I could be around adults sometimes and away from My two girls and my step kids. I like to play nickels at the casino, and love to shop. My husband used to drink, allot @ times, and we had a very rocky few+ years. We have 9 kids that are, his, mine, ours, and theirs. My husband is not Jesse's father, but his name is on her birth certificate, and he has always been there for her. He sees/feels no difference w/t the kids, and loves her as much as the rest. We just don't know what to do. Please someone give me some help!! These baby's need someone smarter and more experience then us. Why cant your son in law take his children and let them live with him?, and you guys keep Jen? It is a sad situation going on, and the mother of these kids is being very irresponsible. You definately dont want cps involved again in any of your lives, so what you need to do in order to protect your grandchildren, is do a guardianship on them, listing you or another grown sibling or someone else in your immediate family as Guardian of these children in case cps ever gets involved and tries to take these kids from Jess, someone else will already have guardianship on them and they will stay in the family, instead of foster care. I believe the reason cps took your one grandchild with cf is because he/she is a special needs child and cps gets LOTS more money for bringing in specail needs children. I think you should really visit this site I am fixing to post and you need to get alot of papers from this site in order to protect your grandchildren. You can even ask questions on this site as well, and find all kinds of valuable information and there are some good people on this site who can help you. The site is called: http://forum.fightcps.com/ Do check this out when you get a chance. It is about people who are fighting against cps and how to protect your own kids from them.
Your daughter needs some help in Parenting skills. She needs to do some classes for this. Some places offer these classes for free. Hang on to those grandbabies, it sounds as though you are all they have. Get the fathers involved in the childrens lives and if they dont want to be, then get your son in laws "parents" involved and see if they can help. I know you want Jen to be with her siblings, but you have to do what you have to do in order to save them all. |
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