Message Boards

Topic : 07/31 "Get Rid of It!"

Number of Replies: 190
New Messages This Week: 0
Last Reply On:
Created on : Friday, January 25, 2008, 01:19:15 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
(Original Air Date: 01/30/08) Is there something you’ve been hanging on to for just a little too long? Clothes you haven’t fit into since high school? Boxes of stuff you haven’t looked at in years? Dr. Phil’s guests say their loved ones need to call the junk yard and “Get rid of it!” Kim says her husband, Paul’s, Star Wars hobby has to go. With over 6,000 pieces in his collection, Paul spends 30 hours a week playing with his action figures, building models and talking to friends about Star Wars. He even included light sabers in their wedding, so shouldn’t Kim have known what she was getting into? Next, Larry and Sheila married four months ago, but Sheila says she had no idea she was getting hitched to a hoarder. Larry says she’s got it all wrong –- she’s the pack rat! With some of their favorite collections rolled out on stage, can Dr. Phil help them negotiate what goes and what stays? Plus, meet Terri, who has four storage units and two garages full of sentimental memories –- like a rubber chicken and her father’s X-rays!  She spends so much money storing her stuff that she can’t even afford health insurance. What’s at the heart of her hoarding? Tell us what you think!

Find out what happened on the show.

As of January, 2009, this message board will become "Read Only" and will be closed to further posting. Please join the NEW Dr. Phil Community to continue your discussions, personalize your message board experience, start a blog and meet new friends.

July 31, 2008, 7:55 pm CDT

07/31 "Get Rid of It!"

Quote From: wcolomom

 My 55 year old sister died suddenly alone in her 1800 square foot house of a sudden Heart attack.   She turned out to be a hoarder.  Every bit of her house was full.  Some rooms were packed to the ceiling with her clothes from high school, antiques,  all types of collections, every letter she ever received.  That was just the beginning. It took the entire family two weeks to clean the house out.  There was so much you could not go through everything, so we ended up bringing in rolloffs and just filling them.  Such a waste of resouces/ stuff.  It had a profound affect on the family. So much so that we now are careful what we keep. None of us what to ever cause another family member to have to go though the process of disposing of someone elses things ever again.  It is worse than doing the funeral arragments.

I SO totally agree!! I, too, keep my "stuff" at a minimum for the same reason...who wants to be a burden on family members?  And, I hate clutter!

 

Not to mention the fire hazard...and the fact that if there's an emergency and the paramedics had to wade through ceiling high, wall-to-wall crap and spend precious minutes playing find-the-victim amongst all the garbage, you could literally die for your "stuff"!

 

Something to think about.

 
July 31, 2008, 8:21 pm CDT

07/31 "Get Rid of It!"

Quote From: nineteen

As a special education teacher of 21 years,  and the mother of a daughter with autism spectrum disorder,

I think that you short changed  this young man.  He is obviously (to me) somewhere on the autism spectrum.  Leave his Star Wars stuff alone.  He would need some serious therapy before expecting him to actually loosen his hold on his things.  I believe he would become physically ill or possibly have a mental break down if his Star Wars life was just taken away.

 

I found no humor in the story and a professional needs to talk with his wife if she truly doesn't understand that her husband actually has a disorder.

 

Thank you,

Oh dear Lord!!

 

He does NOT have a disorder... he has a hobby!!!

 
July 31, 2008, 8:49 pm CDT

I'm a hoarder in recovery :)

I am a hoarder, as I like to put it, "in recovery."  My favorite things to hoard are books.  About 1.5 years ago, I had OVER 10,000 books in my 900 sq. ft. house - and yes, I'd read just about all of them. 

Those books are the reason I'm now "in recovery."  About 1.5 years ago, while pushing a huge pile of books off of one corner of my couch so I could sit down, a MOUSE jumped out at me!!  Needless to say, I freaked out! :)  It wasn't so much that there was a mouse in my house, but that a mouse was in my precious books! 

I began - very very carefully - to dig through the pile of books, to find where the mouse came from.  Eventually, about 3 hours later, I found six books that had been chewed to shreds, along with a corner of the couch cushion. 

I sat down on a precarious pile of books and started to cry over those shredded books.  One of the books was so shredded, I could no longer tell what book it was, and that devastated me.  A precious book, one I'd read from page to page, that had become a part of my own memories was now gone, and I had no idea which book, which memory, it was. 

Still crying, I stood up and started to go through the books, one by one, piling them up as neatly as I could in the three square feet of floor space that wasn't already filled in my kitchen, so that I could save them, so that I could find some way to get them into the back room, where the bulk of my thousands of books were stacked on shelves so high, with piles on the floor, a room so stuffed I couldn't have put another book in there if I wanted to.

As I went through that pile, something happened.  I'm not entirely sure what it was, but there was this moment where the mantra in my head went from "save the books, save the books," to "this is insane, this is insane," then finally, somewhere around 5a.m., to "I want my house back.  I want my house back."

Three days later, I had my first garage sale: all the books in the living room.  Since then, over the last 1.5 years, I've had five more garage sales, sold many of them online, donated easily more than 2,000 of them, and am now down to about 300 books, the most precious and favorite ones.  I now limit myself to just one bookshelf - if the book don't fit there, it gets sold or donated, or swapped out with one of the existing ones.

Clearing out those books got me de-cluttering other stuff.  Although NOWHERE near as bad as the books, I also hoard office supplies, canned food, scrap wood, old receipts, DVDs, videos, jigsaw puzzles, board games, but all of those have been cut down by about 80%.  It's an ongoing process, one that is still in the works, but I can say today that I have my house back.  I can WALK in every room.  I can sit on my couch, on all three cushions!  Although it really needs to be replaced - the former mouse nest is really obvious, and the weight of all those books broke the legs and springs, but I can't afford to replace it right now, as I lost my job back in October and only found another job last month.  Eventually, though, I will. 

Some people say that hoarding is a mental illness, a sickness.  That is TOO SIMPLISTIC.  Hoarding, like many addictions, has many different angles behind it.  For me, it's not a mental illness, it is an ingrained habit of security and control over a world that can be cruely lonely at times.  I could write an entire book behind my hoarding issues, but to be brief: most of my hoarding tendencies revolve around an instinctive reaction to growing up with my (adoptive) OCD mother who would clean obsessively, to the point she would throw out my homework thinking it was trash!  She would throw out toys, clothes, everything and anything in her constant quest for removing the threat of every last germ in the house.  The ONLY things of mine she would never throw out when she was cleaning was my books.  But it's more complicated than that - I spent much of my childhood in the hospital, having reconstructive surgery on my face after an  electrical accident burned half my face.  Books were my comfort during those long lonely nights in the hospital.  They kept me company, they gave me escapes from the pain, and most importantly, books were my closest, best, and most understanding friends when I had no friends because the other kids teased me due to the scars on my face.  Even more so, books gave me knowledge when I couldn't go to school, experience when I couldn't go out and play like "normal" kids, and dreams and hopes that one day, I would be able to be normal.  Eventually, I did grow up and live a life far beyond normal - like spending five years traveling on a bike around the world - but the book hoarding never really stopped (those five years, my books were stored in my dad's garage! and I would often mail books I'd read in other countries home for my parents to save for me when I got back!)

I sit there watching shows like today's Dr. Phil and "Clean House," and I completely relate to the obsessive collectors of things that simply don't make sense to others.  The Star Wars guy?  I totally relate.  I find myself cringing, actually getting sick to my stomach, when I hear people say things like, "just throw it away" because I know that it is like simply throwing away not only a piece of your life, but a piece of your identity, your essence, your very soul.  But when you reach the point where you are defined by your clutter, instead of you defining your clutter, and you realize that it has more essence then you do, then you too will have that moment where you find your internal mantra going "I want my house back, I want my house back," just like I did. 

And still do.  More than 80% of the stuff in my house is now gone.  Still too much stuff here, but I'm working on it.  Actually will be having yet another garage sale this Saturday!

How I do it is simple:  Every time there is a commercial on TV, I get up and start picking up something.  One item at a time: I walk around the house, I pick an item, and I say to myself, "Keep, Sell, Donate, Trash."  Once I pick it up, I insist to myself that I now own this item, and I now control it, and I must decide the best possible fate for this item, then I throw it into the appropriate box.  I do this throughout the commercial break, every single night for about 4 hours of TV a night, and have done so for over a year now. 

For those of you living with hoarders, the best advice I can give you is to STOP ARGUING with them about it.  Just get four boxes, label them "Keep, Sell, Donate, Trash," and leave them alone.  Other than mentioning, preferably in passing, that he/she might want to use these to help him/her ORGANIZE their stuff so that they have more room, say nothing.  Just leave them there.  Maybe, just maybe, your hoarder will decide to use the boxes.  If they do, don't be surprised if the donate box is the first one filled - it is much easier to donate a piece of your essence than to sell it or throw it away.  When one box is filled, DO NOT make a big deal out if - that will cause an unexpected negative reaction, trust me! - just sell/donate/trash or find appropriate space for the items in the box, and put it back.  Maybe, just maybe, if you are very lucky, the hoarder will begin to find the sense of freedom and joy I found by finding new homes for my stuff.

But don't argue, beg, plead, bribe, manipulate, or cajoul them into it.  That just reinforces the thought in their head that there stuff is their security, that their stuff is their friend, that the stuff understands and accepts them.  When you argue, beg, plead, etc., with them, you are just proving to them that their hoarding habits are RIGHT :)  and that you do NOT understand or accept them.

I'm attaching a photo of my living room couch before and after.  Try not to be too shocked, but feel free to laugh as much as you want!


 
July 31, 2008, 9:14 pm CDT

07/31 "Get Rid of It!"

Quote From: goinggrey

I am a hoarder, as I like to put it, "in recovery."  My favorite things to hoard are books.  About 1.5 years ago, I had OVER 10,000 books in my 900 sq. ft. house - and yes, I'd read just about all of them. 

Those books are the reason I'm now "in recovery."  About 1.5 years ago, while pushing a huge pile of books off of one corner of my couch so I could sit down, a MOUSE jumped out at me!!  Needless to say, I freaked out! :)  It wasn't so much that there was a mouse in my house, but that a mouse was in my precious books! 

I began - very very carefully - to dig through the pile of books, to find where the mouse came from.  Eventually, about 3 hours later, I found six books that had been chewed to shreds, along with a corner of the couch cushion. 

I sat down on a precarious pile of books and started to cry over those shredded books.  One of the books was so shredded, I could no longer tell what book it was, and that devastated me.  A precious book, one I'd read from page to page, that had become a part of my own memories was now gone, and I had no idea which book, which memory, it was. 

Still crying, I stood up and started to go through the books, one by one, piling them up as neatly as I could in the three square feet of floor space that wasn't already filled in my kitchen, so that I could save them, so that I could find some way to get them into the back room, where the bulk of my thousands of books were stacked on shelves so high, with piles on the floor, a room so stuffed I couldn't have put another book in there if I wanted to.

As I went through that pile, something happened.  I'm not entirely sure what it was, but there was this moment where the mantra in my head went from "save the books, save the books," to "this is insane, this is insane," then finally, somewhere around 5a.m., to "I want my house back.  I want my house back."

Three days later, I had my first garage sale: all the books in the living room.  Since then, over the last 1.5 years, I've had five more garage sales, sold many of them online, donated easily more than 2,000 of them, and am now down to about 300 books, the most precious and favorite ones.  I now limit myself to just one bookshelf - if the book don't fit there, it gets sold or donated, or swapped out with one of the existing ones.

Clearing out those books got me de-cluttering other stuff.  Although NOWHERE near as bad as the books, I also hoard office supplies, canned food, scrap wood, old receipts, DVDs, videos, jigsaw puzzles, board games, but all of those have been cut down by about 80%.  It's an ongoing process, one that is still in the works, but I can say today that I have my house back.  I can WALK in every room.  I can sit on my couch, on all three cushions!  Although it really needs to be replaced - the former mouse nest is really obvious, and the weight of all those books broke the legs and springs, but I can't afford to replace it right now, as I lost my job back in October and only found another job last month.  Eventually, though, I will. 

Some people say that hoarding is a mental illness, a sickness.  That is TOO SIMPLISTIC.  Hoarding, like many addictions, has many different angles behind it.  For me, it's not a mental illness, it is an ingrained habit of security and control over a world that can be cruely lonely at times.  I could write an entire book behind my hoarding issues, but to be brief: most of my hoarding tendencies revolve around an instinctive reaction to growing up with my (adoptive) OCD mother who would clean obsessively, to the point she would throw out my homework thinking it was trash!  She would throw out toys, clothes, everything and anything in her constant quest for removing the threat of every last germ in the house.  The ONLY things of mine she would never throw out when she was cleaning was my books.  But it's more complicated than that - I spent much of my childhood in the hospital, having reconstructive surgery on my face after an  electrical accident burned half my face.  Books were my comfort during those long lonely nights in the hospital.  They kept me company, they gave me escapes from the pain, and most importantly, books were my closest, best, and most understanding friends when I had no friends because the other kids teased me due to the scars on my face.  Even more so, books gave me knowledge when I couldn't go to school, experience when I couldn't go out and play like "normal" kids, and dreams and hopes that one day, I would be able to be normal.  Eventually, I did grow up and live a life far beyond normal - like spending five years traveling on a bike around the world - but the book hoarding never really stopped (those five years, my books were stored in my dad's garage! and I would often mail books I'd read in other countries home for my parents to save for me when I got back!)

I sit there watching shows like today's Dr. Phil and "Clean House," and I completely relate to the obsessive collectors of things that simply don't make sense to others.  The Star Wars guy?  I totally relate.  I find myself cringing, actually getting sick to my stomach, when I hear people say things like, "just throw it away" because I know that it is like simply throwing away not only a piece of your life, but a piece of your identity, your essence, your very soul.  But when you reach the point where you are defined by your clutter, instead of you defining your clutter, and you realize that it has more essence then you do, then you too will have that moment where you find your internal mantra going "I want my house back, I want my house back," just like I did. 

And still do.  More than 80% of the stuff in my house is now gone.  Still too much stuff here, but I'm working on it.  Actually will be having yet another garage sale this Saturday!

How I do it is simple:  Every time there is a commercial on TV, I get up and start picking up something.  One item at a time: I walk around the house, I pick an item, and I say to myself, "Keep, Sell, Donate, Trash."  Once I pick it up, I insist to myself that I now own this item, and I now control it, and I must decide the best possible fate for this item, then I throw it into the appropriate box.  I do this throughout the commercial break, every single night for about 4 hours of TV a night, and have done so for over a year now. 

For those of you living with hoarders, the best advice I can give you is to STOP ARGUING with them about it.  Just get four boxes, label them "Keep, Sell, Donate, Trash," and leave them alone.  Other than mentioning, preferably in passing, that he/she might want to use these to help him/her ORGANIZE their stuff so that they have more room, say nothing.  Just leave them there.  Maybe, just maybe, your hoarder will decide to use the boxes.  If they do, don't be surprised if the donate box is the first one filled - it is much easier to donate a piece of your essence than to sell it or throw it away.  When one box is filled, DO NOT make a big deal out if - that will cause an unexpected negative reaction, trust me! - just sell/donate/trash or find appropriate space for the items in the box, and put it back.  Maybe, just maybe, if you are very lucky, the hoarder will begin to find the sense of freedom and joy I found by finding new homes for my stuff.

But don't argue, beg, plead, bribe, manipulate, or cajoul them into it.  That just reinforces the thought in their head that there stuff is their security, that their stuff is their friend, that the stuff understands and accepts them.  When you argue, beg, plead, etc., with them, you are just proving to them that their hoarding habits are RIGHT :)  and that you do NOT understand or accept them.

I'm attaching a photo of my living room couch before and after.  Try not to be too shocked, but feel free to laugh as much as you want!


I don't know you but I have to say I am so incredibly proud of you. Obviously you have done a LOT OF HARD WORK!!

 

       Clapping Hands 

 
July 31, 2008, 10:05 pm CDT

Thank You!

Quote From: feistyd

I don't know you but I have to say I am so incredibly proud of you. Obviously you have done a LOT OF HARD WORK!!

 

       Clapping Hands 

Yes, I have - one book at a time :)  It is quite freeing, and it's wonderful to be able to walk into every room in my house and see all four corners, the floor, and the ceiling. 

I didn't know it at the time, but that moment of clarity, of deciding to get my house back, would end up litterally saving my house.  But selling those books, and all the other stuff I've sold since - about 2,000 DVDs, more than 700 jigsaw puzzles (yes, I'd put them all together at least once in the past), more than 100 board games, more than 2,000 albums and all 1,700 of my CDs (but not before I copied them to an external hard drive, I must admit!) ended up saving my house.  When I lost my job back in October, I had, like most Americans, absolutely no savings.  The three yard sales I've had since October (and ebay and pawn shops and classified ads) have helped me pay my mortgage and keep the lights on.  Since October, I only fell one month behind on the mortgage, but got caught up thanks to those sales.  And next year's tax return is going to be really sweet, with the huge charitable deduction I have from all the stuff that I donated! I finally started working again last month, thankfully, but I'm not going to go back to the old ways ever again of using my "spare" money to buy books, dvds, etc.  Nope - now my spare money goes to a savings account, so I never have the fear and struggle of going nine months without a job and no savings ever again.  The stuff used to be my security, my comfort: Now, a savings account will be.

The back room was even worse - I'll attach a few photos :)  It's downright scary!  As I worked through that back room, I discovered a futon and an old loveseat that I'd completely forgotten I owned!  A mouse got to the loveseat, too :)

The living room - the couch in particular - has stayed de-cluttered since that first yard sale a year and a half ago.  I'm real proud of myself for that!  There has been the occasional moment when I'll find myself starting to do silly stuff, like leave the laundry on the couch to "fold later" - but I always stop myself.

The back room I only finally finished clearing out 4 months ago - the very last of the board games and books (about 50, you can see them on the shelf) is in this weekend's yard sale.  Obviously, there is still a lot of cleaning and painting to do - and the carpet is beyond shot.  But, I have an entire room that eventually, I'm going to set up either as a guest bedroom, or as a place to play poker with my friends! :) No more always going to their houses!


First set of pics is "before" and last photos are "after" - it's like it's not even the same room! The yellowish couch in the photo has been completely chewed up by mice - it's not real obvious in the photo.  A friend is going to haul it to the dump this weekend.

Hope you get a kick out of them! 

Hoarders everywhere - if I can do it, YOU CAN TO! :) 


 
August 1, 2008, 8:53 am CDT

I Understand

I have a fiance' that tends to keep everything that he has ever owned in his entire life. He refuses to throw anything away because he grew up in a poor environment. It tends to be aggravating at times because I try to keep an organized home but with all this clutter it's so hard to find places for it. I wish my fiance' could realize that he doesn't have to hold on to everything just because he is afraid to let anything go.
 
August 1, 2008, 9:31 am CDT

Sheila is also a hoarder, just won't admit it.

 

  I was dismayed to watch the story of Larry and Sheila, that a new wife moves into a man's house and throws all his things out - to the garage, to the lawn, to a garage sale. and just takes over.  Her stuff is women' s stuff and obviously not willing to part with any of it.   She sat there looking like she is always right and wasn't challenged.  She came across as the same selfish, controlling women I've watched  in my neighborhood who do this to my male friends and just I just choke.  I've watched you because you usually address the issues with both partners - takes two to make a problem.   If I was ever to even think about asking my husband to get rid of his hobbies, - including plumbing projects,  I would not be the partner I expected to be.   As you preach, marriages are partnerships with compromise and understanding, give and take.  We all have our favorite things, no matter what someone else thinks.  I am so tired of people who tell everyone else what is looks good. 

Sorry Dr. Phil, you are no expert on this, your personal preferrence/style always comes through which you did not acknowledge.  You gave some attempt to be fair, but not really.  This is not a topic that should even be on your show.  It was presumptuous to tell how you gave things away that you didn't own, then tell someone else how to give his personal things away and tell him how he would feel.  That was your feeling when you gave things away, you know better than that.  A better job was done with the third guest.  That issue was at a higher level, it was affecting health and life, Larry and Sheila did not..  You are better than this.   I feel sorry for this couple, not sure that the marriage will last, as much as they professed their love on the show. 

 
August 1, 2008, 9:37 am CDT

I understand

Quote From: labeaudame11

I have a fiance' that tends to keep everything that he has ever owned in his entire life. He refuses to throw anything away because he grew up in a poor environment. It tends to be aggravating at times because I try to keep an organized home but with all this clutter it's so hard to find places for it. I wish my fiance' could realize that he doesn't have to hold on to everything just because he is afraid to let anything go.
Now remember, you're going to be marrying into this!  If it is already really bugging you, I think you need to tread forward VERY carefully, because he will NOT change after marriage unless he wants to! 

BEFORE you go forward with this marriage, I would suggest the two of you sit down and have a serious, but calm, LOVING, supportive, and non-confrontational discussion about the stuff. 

Some suggested approaches...

Let him know you love him, you think he's the most incredible person you've ever met, but that you are worried about the kind of environment your future children will be growing up in.  Of course, you've got lots of time before the kids come, but it's something kinda bugging you.  Is there any way we can start making the house safer now, while there are no children, so we don't have a big overwhelming job in the future?

If you already have children, then that is even better:  Use the safety of the children as an approach.

The reason I suggest using the safety of children, real or potential, is because your husband is what I call a "security hoarder."  His stuff gives him a sense of security - it won't leave him, it won't abandon him, it won't hurt him.  But the security of children will almost always trump a hoarder's own sense of security. 

Don't make too big a deal out of it - just lay the seed in his mind, and hope it grows.

Ask him for a room of your own.  In this case, approach it as you feel like you don't belong here, that you don't have a place here, that your need for space of your own is being ignored, and that it makes you feel like you are ignored, unimportant, and unloved.  But if I could have the living room (or the kitchen or the dining room or any other single room) to be a place where I could display MY stuff, that could be MY room, oh honey that would be the grandest, most loving thing you could do for me!  Then help him move his junk out of that room into whatever other place he wants to put it (yes, it does cause more clutter elsewhere) but while doing this, have the four boxes out I've mentioned before: Keep, Sell, Donate, Trash.  That way, you MIGHT be able to get rid of some stuff.  Then, set up the room any way you want it, and make sure he agrees that his STUFF can't come into the room, but that HE can come in anytime he wants.  Of course, you should take a few precious items of his, some nice momentos, meaningful photos, whatever, and display them in a place of honor in the room.  Then be vigilant, but noncombative:  Anytime he brings some of his stuff into room, just move it elsewhere. 

The most important thing is to NOT NAG, not argue, beg, plead, or in any other way let the stuff lead to arguments.  Remember:  He views this stuff as part of HIM, so when you say you hate his stuff, you are saying you hate him.


Good luck - I hope this helps!
 
August 1, 2008, 11:00 am CDT

07/31 "Get Rid of It!"

Dear Star Wars Wife - You gotta layoff. Who cares if you work out with a Stormtrooper. It's your husbands passion and love. There is nothing wrong with a collection like this. He has his basement and his Star Wars stuff. Let it be.

 

Dear Star Wars Husband - As much as I love your collection (I collect scale cars and owned roughly 3000 at its peak) You have to learn how to turn this off. Marriage isnt all about you and Star Wars. Honeymoons are about you and your wife...not Star Wars movies. Marriage is you and your wife. That includes suggling/talking/hugging. Keep the collection in the basement and turn off Star Wars when you leave it..Cause it seems to me your marriage depends on it

 

Dear Dr Phil - Dont belittle this guy like you did. Why make fun of his Stormtrooper models? Obviously youve never collected.

 
August 1, 2008, 11:58 am CDT

Get rid of the Stormtrooper

   I believe the problem is that this man has no personality of his own.  By his admission, he has no friends outside of Star Wars. His wife should have run when she saw how obssessed he was with this hobby. He was never marriage material because he had never and still has not learned to interact with normal people. I have several hobbies, but in at least one of them, my wife is happily included. This wife will never have a real husband because he does not recognize that his hobby IS NOT all there is to living, if you can call staying in the basement, ALONE, for almost all your waking and not working or eating time.

  She should either get more accustomed to being "boring" to her husband and thus being alone, or get a new husband. This man does not have a clue that he is just a "blip" on a Star Wars radar screen (I know that is not the correct Jedi phrase)  with no refernce to the human race just as his Star Wars characters had no reference to his trains..

  This wife is doomed to a lifetime of more of this. Also, what makes anyone think that having children would change this. The husband does not relate to regular human beings now so what makes anyone think that the children would get any of his attention. He is too self-centered for that.

   You will notce that Dr. Phil made no real effort to improve the situation, he just made a half-hearted attempt to get the husband to put a little balance in his life, knowing full well that there has been no hint of insight to the fact that there is a problem. The famous saying "you can' t change what you don't acknowledge" was never more obvious than with this show. Even the abusive husband in the earlier shows this week accepted the fact that he needed help.

 
First | Prev | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | Next | Last